The Union Forever: A TL

[Lalli]

Lets discuss the early chancellors of Germany. Would von Bethmann-Hollweg still come to power in a Prussia where Bismarck was discredited? I also don't think that the Social Democrats would be able to secure a majority government. Lets start the discussion of what would the political parties be at the foundation of the German Empire in 1911?

I don't know about Bethmann-Hollweg but Social Democrat government might be bit difficult form during conservative Wilhelm II's reign even if him hasn't much political power. At least it hardly can sit so long.

 

[Beedok]

Persia can into Middle Power. Maybe even a Great Power. Maybe.

 

[Ryan]

Persia can into Middle Power. Maybe even a Great Power. Maybe.

it certainly has the population to be a great power, it just depends on how developed it is.

 

[naraht]

Dang, that's a small Paraguay.

 

[Pokemon Master]

Is professional hockey as popular in the U.S. and Canada as it is OTL?

 

[Lalli]

Persia can into Middle Power. Maybe even a Great Power. Maybe.

Probably it already can count as middle power. And Persia has already nuclear weapon. Clearly much stronger than OTL current Iran.

Dang, that's a small Paraguay.

Yep. Just wondering how bad War of the Triple Alliance was ITTL.

 

[naraht]

Probably it already can count as middle power. And Persia has already nuclear weapon. Clearly much stronger than OTL current Iran.



Yep. Just wondering how bad War of the Triple Alliance was ITTL.

Maybe just a very victorious Bolivia in the Chaco war.

 

[Zoidberg12]

I posted this map for 2000 several pages back. I can't vouch for some of the internal borders that your map has for Germany, China, Nigeria, Congo, etc. If you are going to show satellite states, which my map does not, then Sindh, Baluchistan, and Punjab should be colored for Persia.

I fixed my map to show those nations as Persian satellite states. I like your map, but I also like my map as it shows the subdivisions of certain countries and the different puppet states of the different powers.

 

[Lalli]

I fixed my map to show those nations as Persian satellite states. I like your map, but I also like my map as it shows the subdivisions of certain countries and the different puppet states of the different powers.

You should still fix provinces of Canada and borders of Baltic and Poland.

 

[Mac Gregor]

I fixed my map to show those nations as Persian satellite states. I like your map, but I also like my map as it shows the subdivisions of certain countries and the different puppet states of the different powers.

You should still fix provinces of Canada and borders of Baltic and Poland.

I would also change the color of West Africa to the one I used. Regarding internal borders, I'm not sure what the northern portions of Algeria and Italian North Africa on your map are displaying. In my opinion, I think it makes since to show internal borders for federations but not unitary states. Therefore China, which isn't a federation, internal borders need not to be shown. However, I imagine the Technate's internal borders are fairly different than OTLs and would be interested to see people's proposals on a separate map.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Persia can into Middle Power. Maybe even a Great Power. Maybe.

it certainly has the population to be a great power, it just depends on how developed it is.

Probably it already can count as middle power. And Persia has already nuclear weapon. Clearly much stronger than OTL current Iran.

Yep. Just wondering how bad War of the Triple Alliance was ITTL.

Persia is certainly considered a middle power and is sometimes even listed at the bottom of the great powers. As of 2000, it has nuclear weapons and satellite launch capability. Persia has the 15th biggest population and 12th largest economy.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Is professional hockey as popular in the U.S. and Canada as it is OTL?

It is not as popular in the TL's America and remains closely associated with Canada. However in recent decades interest has grown in the United States. There is no professional league yet but college hockey has gained a significant folllowing in some northern schools.

 

[Zoidberg12]

You should still fix provinces of Canada and borders of Baltic and Poland.

I would also change the color of West Africa to the one I used. Regarding internal borders, I'm not sure what the northern portions of Algeria and Italian North Africa on your map are displaying. In my opinion, I think it makes since to show internal borders for federations but not unitary states. Therefore China, which isn't a federation, internal borders need not to be shown. However, I imagine the Technate's internal borders are fairly different than OTLs and would be interested to see people's proposals on a separate map.

I re-posted the map on the previous page of this thread. I fixed the color of West Africa, removed the internal borders of China and fixed the borders of the the Baltic states and Poland.

The internal borders of French Algeria are supposed to show the border of the departments of French Algeria. The internal borders of Italian Libya are supposed to show the border between the provinces and the Southern Military Territory.

I'm not sure whether I should change the borders of the provinces of Canada though. Which do you guys prefer; my borders or Mac's borders?

 

[Zoidberg12]

I edited my list of German chancellors on page 310. Is this better? Is my list of German political parties also good?

List of Chancellors of the German Empire

Friedrich III (1911-1914)

Bernhard von Bülow (Non-Partisan) (1911-1919)

Wilhelm II (1914-1941)

Georg Michaelis (Non-Partisan) (1919-1922)
Constantin Fehrenbach (Christian Democrat) (1922-1926)
Wilhelm Marx (Christian Democrat) (1926-1932)
Heinrich Bauer (Conservative) (1932-1938)
Hans Weber (Christian Democrat) (1938-1942)

Friedrich IV (1941-1988)

Julius Schmidt (Christian Democrat) (1942-1944)
Franz Bartels (Social Democrat) (1944-1955)
Florian Krueger (Conservative-Christian Democrat Coalition) (1955-1970)
Wolf von Frej (Christian Democrat-Social Democrat-Krulikist Coalition) (1970-1975)
Engel Kistner (Christian Democrat-Social Democrat-Krulikist Coalition) (1975-1976) †
Julius Holzner (Christian Democrat-Social Democrat-Krulikist Coalition) (1976-1978)
Ulrich von Ritter (Conservative) (1978-1986)
Hermann Lasker (German Democratic Union) (1986-1990)

Wilhelm III (1988- )

Ernst Osterloh (Conservative) (1990- )

† = Died in Office

 

[Mac Gregor]

Smoke over the Steppe
The IEF Civil War
April – October 2002

Reformer Soldier during the Battle of Minsk​

With the coming of spring, the Conservatives renewed the offensive once again hoping to finally bring the Reformers to heel. The proper strategy was hotly debated in Moscow with many favoring a renewed push towards St. Petersburg. However, the strength of the Reformer defenses and previous failures on that front eventually dissuaded Kuznetsov and the Imperial General Staff on that course of action. Eventually the Conservatives agreed on a massive drive into the Byelorussia region in what became known as Operation Nosorog. Starting in late April, nearly a million Conservative troops surged westward. One of the largest clashes of catephracts in history occurred around Vitebsk. The beleaguered city would trade hands no less than three times before the Conservatives managed a sweeping flanking movement to the south that succeeded in breaking the Reformers lines. It was widely rumored that when the Conservatives finally retook Vitebsk that a large number of the city's sizable Jewish population was massacred by Conservative militias and mercenaries. By the end of summer, the Conservatives had captured Minsk which suffered horribly due to aerial bombardment and later house to house fighting. In the following weeks, the Conservatives reached the Polish border. Exhaustion and the presence of the German backed Polish Army prevented the Conservatives from advancing any further. Reformer counterattacks and advances on other fronts failed to achieve the desired results only adding to the horrendous casualties.

The loss of Byelorussia proved a devastating blow to the Reformers. By October, the territory controlled by Pasternak’s government was reduced to three large but disparate pockets. These included the area around St. Petersburg and the Baltic regions, most of the Ukraine, and the western half of the Caucuses. With the Conservatives gaining air superiority there was little that these three zones could do to support each other. Hopes that foreign nations would come to their rescue had all but evaporated. Still Pasternak and other Reformer leaders in St. Petersburg held out the hope that the heavy-handed repression and persistent food shortages would topple the Conservative regime in Moscow. Needless to say, the continuing slaughter convinced thousands to flee to the relative safety of Poland, Finland, or the refugee camps in Central and Western Europe.

In Manchuria, the technocrats succeeded in defeating the other factions during the mad scramble for power that occurred after the Russian withdrawal months earlier. Unsurprisingly, the Technate of China was the first nation to officially recognize the Technate of Manchuria as an independent nation on September 2. The rest of the Technocratic Union swiftly followed. Na Gengxin, known for his close ties to China, was installed as the Techanate’s first executive in Mukden. In Central Asia and the eastern Caucuses, rebel controlled areas were operating as if their independence was already won. Turkey officially recognized the Azeri Republic and Ismail Fitrat’s massive Democratic Union of Turkic Republics. Wishing to curry favor in these new nations Persia did likewise and also took the bold step and recognized Dagestan and Chechenia. Kuznetsov’s government in Moscow, could do little but file a formal diplomatic protest and decry the acts as “provocative and illegal.”

 

[RyderWest]

Why do I think that on the cusp of victory someone is going to something completely stupid in the IEF civil war?

Even if the Conservatives won, they lost nearly most of their territories outside of Russia.

 

[Prince Daemon Targaryen]

Looks like the Conservatives have won the Civil War. However, they are going to be in a rough time of it. If I were them, I'd make a deal with the Germans. Grant Finland and Poland independence in exchange for the Association of European States to assist them in destroying the Reformers

 

[Mac Gregor]

I edited my list of German chancellors on page 310. Is this better? Is my list of German political parties also good?

Here is the list for the major current German political parties based in part off of your earlier post. I'm still not happy with the list of German Chancellors. I will post a definitive list soon. Also if anybody speaks German let me know if I have the abbreviations wrong. Thanks.

German Conservative Party (DKP): Founded on January 10, 1920. Their position is center-right to right-wing. Their ideology is pro-business, social conservatism, retaining the status of the monarchy and nobility, strong military, and pro-Association of European States. The party has a lot of support from the nobility, upper, and upper middle classes. Unlike nearly all of the other political parties, the Conservatives do not favor redrawing Germany’s internal borders to consolidate the numerous small polities and reduce Prussia’s dominate size. The leader as of 2002 is Chancellor Ernst Osterloh from Prussia. The Conservative Party is often represented by the color Prussian blue or black.

German Democratic Union (DDU): Founded on December 1, 1981 after a merger between the Social and Christian Democrats. Their position is center to center-left. Their ideology is compassionate social conservativism, moderate regulation of the economy, and keeping in check the power of the monarchy and nobility. The DDU is pro-Association of European States but less interventionist than the Conservatives. The leader as of 2002 is Lothar Schmidt from Württemberg. The DDU is usually represented by the color yellow.

Socialist Party (SP): Founded on July 30, 1922. Their position is left-wing. The Socialists favor an active welfare state, pro-labor unionism, pro-republican, social liberalism, anti-interventionism, anti-globalism and usually anti-Association of European States. The party has grown and moved more to the political center since the merger of the Christian and Social Democrats in 1981. The leader as of 2002 is Martin Bruan from Austria. The party is represented by the color red, formally dark red when the Social Democratic Party existed.

Krulikist Association of Germany (KVD): Founded on October 15, 1940. As Germany’s main technocratic party the Kurlikist are very anti-monarchist, anti-interventionism and anti-Association of European States. The party wants to see a complete over hall of German society along technocratic lines. The leader as of 2002 is Friedrich Konig from Saxony. The Krulikist use the colors silver or grey.

Ecoist Coalition for Germany (EKD): Founded on May 20, 1980. Their political position is usually described as centrist or center-left although most members adhere to a market friendly form of ecoism. While they naturally promote environmental conservation, the EKD also favor curtailing the power of the monarchy and nobility, anti-militarism, and anti-interventionism. The leader as of 2002 is Anna Kraft from Baden. The EKD is represented by the color green.

 

[Archangel]

I think the news of war crimes in Vitebsk will increase support for the Reformers abroad.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Here is a list I made of US Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates for the world of The Union Forever.

List of US Presidential and Vice-Presidential Candidates

1864: Abraham Lincoln (R-IL)/Hannibal Hamlin (R-ME) def. Horatio Seymour (D-NY)/Lazarus W. Powell (D-KY)
1868: John Sedgwick (R-CT)/Arthur I. Boreman (R-VA) def. Horatio Seymour (D-NY)/Andrew Johnson (D-TN)
1872: John Sedgwick (R-CT)/Arthur I. Boreman (R-VA) def. Andrew Johnson (D-TN)/Winfield Scott Hancock (D-PA)
1876: Arthur I. Boreman (R-VA)/James G. Blaine (R-ME) def. Winfield Scott Hancock (D-PA)/William Allen (D-OH)
1880: Arthur I. Boreman (R-VA)/James G. Blaine (R-ME) def. Thomas S. Bayard (D-DE)/Samuel J. Randall (D-PA)
1884: Samuel J. Randall (D-PA)/David B. Hill (D-NY) def. James G. Blaine (R-ME)/Chester A. Arthur (R-NY)
1888: Samuel J. Randall (D-PA)/David B. Hill (D-NY) def. John Sherman (R-OH)/Thomas B. Reed (R-ME)
1892: David B. Hill (D-NY)/John M. Palmer (D-IL) def. Thomas B. Reed (R-ME)/William McKinley (R-OH)
1896: George Armstrong Custer (D-OH)/Horace Boise (D-IA) def. Mathew S. Quay (R-PA)/William B. Allison (R-IA)
1900: Robert Todd Lincoln (R-IL)/Nathan Goff Jr. (R-VA) def. George Armstrong Custer (D-OH)/Thomas J. Stuart (D-VA)
1904: Robert Todd Lincoln (R-IL)/Nathan Goff Jr. (R-VA) def. Henry G. Davis (D-VA)/Jonathan Y. Ferguson (D-MI)
1908: Robert Todd Lincoln (R-IL)/Andrew Johnson Jr. (R-TN) def. John W. Kern (D-IN)/Alton B. Parker (D-NY)
1912: Theodore Roosevelt (R-NY)/Jacob R. Alexander (R-OR) def. Judson Harmon (D-OH)/Oscar W. Underwood (D-AL)
1916: Theodore Roosevelt (R-NY)/Jacob R. Alexander (R-OR) def. James B. Clark (D-MO)/Eugene Foss (D-MA)
1920: Leonard Wood (R-NH)/Nelson R. Doner (R-MO) def. Erik Millman (D-IN)/Neil Pilson (D-KY)
1924: Harold K. Abercrombie (D-NC)/Kenneth P. Bergstrom (D-MN) def. Nelson R. Doner (R-MO)/Marvin Clary (R-OH)
1928: Harold K. Abercrombie (D-NC)/Kenneth P. Bergstrom (D-MN) def. Marvin Clary (R-OH)/James Cowen (R-SQ)
1932: Zachary T. McKinnis (D-IA)/Edgar D. Glover (D-MS) def. Jerry F. Dawson (R-NJ)/Colby St. John (R-OR)
1936: Daniel E. Warburton (R-PA)/Travis B. Wingfield (R-ME) def. Edgar D. Glover (D-MS)/Arlen Tucker (D-IL)
1940: Vernon M. Kirkman (D-MA)/Timothy G. Buchholz (D-TX) def. Daniel E. Warburton (R-PA)/Travis B. Wingfield (R-ME)
1944: Vernon M. Kirkman (D-MA)/Timothy G. Buchholz (D-TX) def. Jasper V. Richards (R-CO)/Harold McCann (R-ME)
1948: Leroy R. Conner (R-GA)/Luther T. Vanderbilt Sr. (R-NY) def. Vernon M. Kirkman (D-MA)/Jonathan Broussard (D-LA) & Charles Hinnant (AC-MS)/Joseph Gladson (AC-AL)
1952: Leroy R. Conner (R-GA)/Luther T. Vanderbilt Sr. (R-NY) def. Wilber Gibbons (D-JF)/Paul Francis Delano (D-NY) & Charles Hinnant (AC-MS)/Joseph Gladson (AC-AL)
1956: Richard C. Anderson (D-NY)/Bryon Howley (D-MT) def. Luther T. Vanderbilt Sr. (R-NY)/Malcom Kesling (R-MI)
1960: Richard C. Anderson (D-NY)/Bryon Howley (D-MT) def. Clyde B. Nordquist (R-OH)/Herbert Fleming (R-CA)
1964: Frank MacArthur (R-WI)/Sterling Gavin (R-TX) def. Corbin Lindy (D-MI)/Herman Talon (D-DE)
1968: Frank MacArthur (R-WI)/Sterling Gavin (R-TX) def. Warren Maddox (D-VT)/Terrance Barnes (D-MN)
1972: Sterling Gavin (R-TX)/Waylon U. Schubert (R-IN) def. Monty Ziegler (D-WA)/Rupert Stubbs (D-NE)
1976: Margaret L. Stewart (D-CA)/Hudson Accardo (D-FL) def. Sterling Gavin (R-TX)/Waylon U. Schubert (R-IN)
1980: Margaret L. Stewart (D-CA)/Hudson Accardo (D-FL) def. Lloyd Hostetler (R-KY)/Corrine Atherton (R-WA)
1984: Andrew L. Peatross (D-NJ)/Chris Groce (R-AB) def. Bobby Wentz (R-OH)/Abraham Lincoln IV (R-IL)
1988: Abraham Lincoln IV (R-IL)/Palmer Lockwood (R-TX) def. Andrew L. Peatross (D-NJ)/Chris Groce (D-AB)
1992: Abraham Lincoln IV (R-IL)/Palmer Lockwood (R-TX) def. Ray D’Este (D-CT)/Karl McMaster (D-UT)
1996: Franklin M. Blanton (R-OH)/Lenny Rutledge (R-AL) def. Trevor Jeffries (D-NM)/Chase Moynihan (D-DA)
2000: Elias Zaal (D-LM)/Bridget Torres (D-CB) def. Franklin M. Blanton (R-OH)/Lenny Rutledge (R-AL)