The Union Forever: A TL

What's the state of religion in this timeline?

Good question. A few important differences from OTL are....

1) Radical Islam never really takes off in the middle east. There are bands of Wahhabis in the Sultanate of Arabia but they have no real desire to attack Western targets. What we would call moderate Islamist movements do exist in several countries.

2) Weaker Zionism. While there have been some people who call for a Jewish state, Zionism remains a small fringe movement.

3) Greater anti-Semitism. Without an equivalent to OTL's Holocaust there is relatively less sympathy from gentiles towards Jewish people. As such, anti-Semitism is a little more common in Europe and the Americas than OTL.

4) As mentioned in a previous update. A Vatican II council is held from 1969-1972 by Pope Pius X. It allowed the liturgy to be given in the vernacular, declared support for religious liberty, and redefined the relationship between the Church and non-Catholic states. The Second Vatican Council also strongly condemned secularism and recommitted the church to keeping the Gospel as the centerpiece of modern society.

5) In the United States, there is no "God gap" between the Democrats and Republicans like OTL. In fact the Democrats tend to be marginally more church going than Republicans.

6) Optional and non-denominational prayer in school is legal in the United States, although some school districts do decide not to do it.

7) In the United States, there is a credible "religious left" that wants increased government assistance to the poor and disadvantaged. They are split almost equally between the Republican and Democratic parties. There is still a "religious right" but without the abortion issue they are not nearly as politically active as OTL.

8) In the Technate of China religion is legal but heavily discouraged as “backwards and unscientific.” The Technate does promote a pseudo-religion/philosophy known as Techno-Confucianism which stresses order, loyalty to the government, learning, and meritocracy.

9) While secularism has been growing over the years, overall the TL's 1970s is a more church going place than OTL. This is due to a variety of factors such as the lack of the 1960s counterculture, and a much quieter sexual revolution.
 
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6) Optional and non-denominational prayer in school is legal in the United States, although some school districts do decide not to do it.

Good ol' non-denominational prayer, when you take a thesaurus to a Christian prayer and then act like it's somehow now universal.:rolleyes:
 
Mixed reviews.

Good question. A few important differences from OTL are....

Well, okay. 1, 3, 5, 6, and 9 are somewhat believable......I can certainly vouch for 2 and 8. There are, however, issues with 4 and 7 that I feel could be addressed(mainly with the former).

4) As mentioned in a previous update. A Vatican II council is held from 1969-1972 by Pope Pius X. It allowed the liturgy to be given in the vernacular, declared support for religious liberty, and redefined the relationship between the Church and non-Catholic states. The Second Vatican Council also strongly condemned secularism and recommitted the church to keeping the Gospel as the centerpiece of modern society.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time with this? Why would this Second Vatican Council be so willing to support religious liberty, and YET *strongly* condemn secularism at the same time? I mean, I suppose stranger things have happened IOTL, but this does seem pretty contradictory(and probably is, TBH).

7) In the United States, there is a credible "religious left" that wants increased government assistance to the poor and disadvantaged. They are split almost equally between the Republican and Democratic parties. There is still a "religious right" but without the abortion issue they are not nearly as politically active as OTL.

Okay, well, I can understand a surviving religious left, I suppose. However, though, are you saying that abortion isn't an issue because it's not legal yet? Or does the religious right simply not care? That's my main question with this one.
 
I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time with this? Why would this Second Vatican Council be so willing to support religious liberty, and YET *strongly* condemn secularism at the same time? I mean, I suppose stranger things have happened IOTL, but this does seem pretty contradictory(and probably is, TBH).

You've never heard someone trying to say the 1st Amendment allows for freedom of religion but not freedom from religion?
 
You've never heard someone trying to say the 1st Amendment allows for freedom of religion but not freedom from religion?

Well, no, I have. It's a fairly common rightist refrain, actually, but primarily amongst those more reactionary conservatives IOTL. My point is as follows: The major problem is, such a declaration could prove to be disagreeable, or even offensive, to many more moderate Catholics, especially those in the U.S., a country with a *long* history of secular tradition.....and one would suspect that such would be especially true for leftist Catholics. So, TBH, it just doesn't make that much sense to be so controversial, especially with a more prominent Religious Left ITTL; one would think that the Vatican would have taken a much more moderate stance. As I said, stranger things have happened IOTL, but I guess some clarification wouldn't hurt, IMHO.
 
"Creator" is the one I've typically hear. As a buddhist it leaves me grumbling.

Well, it does cover pretty much every religion out there; IMO, this actually makes perfect sense, given that the Religious Left in this country, historically, tended to be far more tolerant of differing traditions than the Religious Right.
 
Well, no, I have. It's a fairly common rightist refrain, actually, but primarily amongst those more reactionary conservatives IOTL. My point is as follows: The major problem is, such a declaration could prove to be disagreeable, or even offensive, to many more moderate Catholics, especially those in the U.S., a country with a *long* history of secular tradition.....and one would suspect that such would be especially true for leftist Catholics. So, TBH, it just doesn't make that much sense to be so controversial, especially with a more prominent Religious Left ITTL; one would think that the Vatican would have taken a much more moderate stance. As I said, stranger things have happened IOTL, but I guess some clarification wouldn't hurt, IMHO.

Without WWII maybe the Vatican doesn't really care what chords they strike in the USA specifically.
 
Good ol' non-denominational prayer, when you take a thesaurus to a Christian prayer and then act like it's somehow now universal.:rolleyes:

"Dear god and/or gods and/or godlike figure(s)..."

Some citizens in the TL have made similar complaints. On the other hand the majority of Americans ITTL support the opportunity for school districts to have voluntary non-denominational prayer. They would probably say "if you don't like it, don't pray". Also let me clarify, by non-denominational prayer I don't mean that all school prayers are necessarily non-denominational as in "Supreme Being bless this school" although this type of prayer is common. I mean that a public school can't declare itself a "Catholic school" and only have Catholic prayers. Naturally though places that are religiously homogeneous tend to have a preponderance of whatever type prayer is most common. For example in Cuba most school prayers are Catholic, in Alabama most prayers are Baptist.
 
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Well, okay. 1, 3, 5, 6, and 9 are somewhat believable......I can certainly vouch for 2 and 8. There are, however, issues with 4 and 7 that I feel could be addressed(mainly with the former).



I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time with this? Why would this Second Vatican Council be so willing to support religious liberty, and YET *strongly* condemn secularism at the same time? I mean, I suppose stranger things have happened IOTL, but this does seem pretty contradictory(and probably is, TBH).

Okay, well, I can understand a surviving religious left, I suppose. However, though, are you saying that abortion isn't an issue because it's not legal yet? Or does the religious right simply not care? That's my main question with this one.

You've never heard someone trying to say the 1st Amendment allows for freedom of religion but not freedom from religion?

Concerning #4 metastasis_d is correct. The Catholic Church doesn't see it as a contradiction to push for religious liberty (that is to say the ability to exercise your religion freely) while at the same time condemning secularism, which they view as trying to force religion out of the public sphere.

For #7, the religious right still care about abortion, but because it is illegal in most states they are not as politically motivated as OTL. Other factors that have prevented the religious right from becoming as politically galvanized as OTL include the lack of a threat by world communism and the availability of school prayer. In my opinion, in OTL it was abortion, school prayer,the cold war, gay rights, and the sexual revolution that really pushed the religious right into politics.
 
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For #7, the religious right still care about abortion, but because it is illegal in most states they are not as politically motivated as OTL. Other factors that have prevented the religious right from becoming as politically galvanized as OTL include the lack of a threat by world communism and the availability of school prayer. In my opinion, in OTL it was abortion, school prayer,the cold war, gay rights, and the sexual revolution that really pushed the religious right into politics.

I wonder if that means that if they are in politics at all they are there to push anti-poverty messages, etc.
 
Something I recently thought of. What is the symbol of the Republican Party? The Democrats have been associated with the donkey since Andrew Jackson but the elephant was not a Republican symbol until the 1870's. So what animal is now associated with the party?
 
In my opinion, in OTL it was abortion, school prayer,the cold war, gay rights, and the sexual revolution that really pushed the religious right into politics.
Well hopefully the 1st, 4th, and 5th rear their heads soon.
Something I recently thought of. What is the symbol of the Republican Party? The Democrats have been associated with the donkey since Andrew Jackson but the elephant was not a Republican symbol until the 1870's. So what animal is now associated with the party?
I vote Moose.
 
Something I recently thought of. What is the symbol of the Republican Party? The Democrats have been associated with the donkey since Andrew Jackson but the elephant was not a Republican symbol until the 1870's. So what animal is now associated with the party?

Originally the Democrats where the Rooster, and the Republicans the Eagle. Thomas Nast changed that but those could remain. And the Progressives could be a third bird... cardinal? or turkey? :D
 
I wonder if that means that if they are in politics at all they are there to push anti-poverty messages, etc.

Some are but the anti-poverty message is mostly the religious left's territory. Another interesting difference from OTL, both the religious left and right ITTL tend to favor keeping America out of foreign entanglements.
 
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Something I recently thought of. What is the symbol of the Republican Party? The Democrats have been associated with the donkey since Andrew Jackson but the elephant was not a Republican symbol until the 1870's. So what animal is now associated with the party?

I vote Moose.


Maybe a raven?

Good question and suggestions. I will have to think about this some more. It is entirely possibly that the Democrats stay as the Donkey but that could change as well. I think this largely depends on whether Thomas Nast continues to work for Harper's Weekly. Some possible suggestions for party mascots I can think of are....

Turkey
Elk/Deer
Bison
snapping turtle
 
Some are but the anti-poverty message is mostly the religious left's territory. Another interesting difference from OTL, both the religious left and right ITTL tend to favor keeping America out of foreign entanglements.

That makes a bit of sense - love thy neighbour and all that.
 
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