The Union Forever: A TL

[Zaqwer]

Yeah I don't think that Britain would want to unify British and Belgian Congo mostly due to the recent violence in Belgian Congo (what's happening there by the way?) I think eventually Britain will give its colony Dominion status or merge it with an existing dominion.

After this war I think the British are going to have to give up all their colonies and move them along the path towards dominions. I hope there are some in the British government who are advocating granting all their dominions Canada-like status and make the Commonwealth an alliance system instead of an imperial one.

 

[metastasis_d]

Good discussion. We will have to wait and see what happens to British Congo. Though I will say that there is really no push for it to be united with Belgian Congo.

Unsurprising; I can't imagine the British inhabitants would have any preference for Belgium and I can't imagine the native population giving a fuck who their colonial oppressors are.

 

[Vladislav]

Why term "British Congo" used instead "Katanga" ITTL?

 

[Iserlohn]

Why term "British Congo" used instead "Katanga" ITTL?

Maybe to follow OTL's French Congo and maybe to save the name Katanga for the post-colonialist independent state?

 

[BELFAST]

Unsurprising; I can't imagine the British inhabitants would have any preference for Belgium and I can't imagine the native population giving a fuck who their colonial oppressors are.

I think they would prefer the Brits.
Belgium rule of the Congo very nasty.
Rodger Casement made a famous report on conditions in the Congo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casement_Report

 

[metastasis_d]

I think they would prefer the Brits.
Belgium rule of the Congo very nasty.
Rodger Casement made a famous report on conditions in the Congo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casement_Report

Since this isn't OTL and the POD is in the 1860s I don't know if people are still losing their hands ITTL or if it's all sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Luminous]

Good discussion. We will have to wait and see what happens to British Congo. Though I will say that there is really no push for it to be united with Belgian Congo.

Definitely wouldn't think that they would. Just pointing out it could be used as a point of leverage. Not that I can think of anything that Belgium could give Great Britain.

Although, on another tangent. The Portuguese empire looks as if it is going to go the way of the dodo, sooner or later. I doubt it would happen given the current climate, but could Portugal and its colonies join the Commonwealth if it becomes an alliance system instead of an empire? Might be the best way for Portugal to stay relevant, considering the loss of Goa and what little they could do for it themselves.

 

[Lalli]

Since this isn't OTL and the POD is in the 1860s I don't know if people are still losing their hands ITTL or if it's all sunshine and rainbows.

There is still Leopold II and he is probably very similar as OTL. It is possible that he not be so cruel as in OTL but not any nice colonial lord still.

 

[metastasis_d]

There is still Leopold II and he is probably very similar as OTL. It is possible that he not be so cruel as in OTL but not any nice colonial lord still.

Well, there was Leopold II but I don't know if the Congo was ever directly under his private rule ITTL or not. I searched to find out but Mac didn't mention it.

He did mention Congo getting independence in 1964, though, so Mac you might want to get a mod to adjust that date. The post is here.

 

[Luminous]

Well, there was Leopold II but I don't know if the Congo was ever directly under his private rule ITTL or not. I searched to find out but Mac didn't mention it.

He did mention Congo getting independence in 1964, though, so Mac you might want to get a mod to adjust that date. The post is here.

I think that post was before the reboot, as it were, started.

Also, though there is no indication of Leopold II owning it directly, I imagine that any major change of policy would be more recent. It would most likely occur after the Dutch lost Indonesia. Germany might have applied pressure on Belgium to shape up their colonial rule, as the only substantial extra-continental territories that the Association of European States possess at that point are Cameroon, Belgian Congo, and Greenland. I am certain that Germany would rather have the buffer about their territory (where their space program is based) and not have chaos spilling over the border.

Throughout 1975 security in the Belgian Congo continued to deteriorate as clashes between government forces and a variety of increasingly hostile militia and guerrilla groups became more common. Limited measures granting some local autonomy made governing more difficult and with around 20 million people the Belgian Congo was considered far too large to be successfully integrated into the nation itself. Belgian Prime Minister Andre Wathelet of the Catholic National Party came under intense pressure from the Labor led opposition to put the Congo on a path towards self-government, a stance opposed by King Leopold IV, Belgian conservatives, and their German allies.

In July, open rebellion finally broke out in the Belgian Congo. Prime Minister Wathelet’s government reluctantly began deploying troops, mostly in the western part of the colony to protect key facilities and infrastructure. German forces from neighboring Cameroon also began providing limited assistance to shore up the Belgians against the myriad of armed groups opposing them.

Edit: Found the first from earlier on page 172, and the second on 175. Forgot about this going on.

 

[ZincOxide]

Whew. Doesn't look like this war is galvanizing people the way World War II ended up doing. But honestly that's kind of better - this world has managed to avoid the presence of genocidal dictators who think nothing of industrializing the process of mass murder.

 

[Mac Gregor]

After this war I think the British are going to have to give up all their colonies and move them along the path towards dominions. I hope there are some in the British government who are advocating granting all their dominions Canada-like status and make the Commonwealth an alliance system instead of an imperial one.

Indeed, certainly a lot of colonies will want to become dominions as seen by Zambezia. Furthermore, many of the dominions like Nigeria, East Africa, and Malaya are going to want greater control over their foreign affairs. Another question is the cost/benefit analysis for being in the Commonwealth. For some, like Madras, it undoubtedly has saved them from extinction. Others like Ireland and Canada would probably have sat the war out if it weren't for their treaty obligations in the Commonwealth.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Why term "British Congo" used instead "Katanga" ITTL?

Maybe to follow OTL's French Congo and maybe to save the name Katanga for the post-colonialist independent state?

British Congo is used because that was the name favored by the British Foreign Office at the time. The name Katanga is occasionally used though.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Unsurprising; I can't imagine the British inhabitants would have any preference for Belgium and I can't imagine the native population giving a fuck who their colonial oppressors are.

I think they would prefer the Brits.
Belgium rule of the Congo very nasty.
Rodger Casement made a famous report on conditions in the Congo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casement_Report

Since this isn't OTL and the POD is in the 1860s I don't know if people are still losing their hands ITTL or if it's all sunshine and rainbows.

There is still Leopold II and he is probably very similar as OTL. It is possible that he not be so cruel as in OTL but not any nice colonial lord still.

Well, there was Leopold II but I don't know if the Congo was ever directly under his private rule ITTL or not. I searched to find out but Mac didn't mention it.

He did mention Congo getting independence in 1964, though, so Mac you might want to get a mod to adjust that date. The post is here.

I think that post was before the reboot, as it were, started.

Also, though there is no indication of Leopold II owning it directly, I imagine that any major change of policy would be more recent. It would most likely occur after the Dutch lost Indonesia. Germany might have applied pressure on Belgium to shape up their colonial rule, as the only substantial extra-continental territories that the Association of European States possess at that point are Cameroon, Belgian Congo, and Greenland. I am certain that Germany would rather have the buffer about their territory (where their space program is based) and not have chaos spilling over the border.

Edit: Found the first from earlier on page 172, and the second on 175. Forgot about this going on.

Great discussion on Belgian Congo. Let me clarify a few things.

The Congo under King Leopold II was very similar to OTL. The Belgian government eventually gained control of the territory from Leopold in 1899 which limited some of the more extreme cases of abuse. As mentioned in past updates, recent unrest has led Belgium to grant their colony some local autonomy. However this did not stop the bloodshed which by now has turned into a full fledge war for independence. As of 1978, the Belgians with support from their German allies are conducting a brutal counterinsurgency to hold onto the Congo.


metatastasis_d, those old posts (1030, 1038, 1039, 1058, 1072, and 1099) are null and void. I'm not sure how to get rid of them but would love to have them gone.

 

[TRH]

metatastasis_d, those old posts (1030, 1038, 1039, 1058, 1072, and 1099) are null and void. I'm not sure how to get rid of them but would love to have them gone.

I assume a mod could assist you, if you asked.

 

[BELFAST]

Great discussion on Belgian Congo. Let me clarify a few things.

The Congo under King Leopold II was very similar to OTL. The Belgian government eventually gained control of the territory from Leopold in 1899 which limited some of the more extreme cases of abuse. As mentioned in past updates, recent unrest has led Belgium to grant their colony some local autonomy. However this did not stop the bloodshed which by now has turned into a full fledge war for independence. As of 1978, the Belgians with support from their German allies are conducting a brutal counterinsurgency to hold onto the Congo.


metatastasis_d, those old posts (1030, 1038, 1039, 1058, 1072, and 1099) are null and void. I'm not sure how to get rid of them but would love to have them gone.

Start a new story only thread without them.

 

[metastasis_d]

metatastasis_d, those old posts (1030, 1038, 1039, 1058, 1072, and 1099) are null and void. I'm not sure how to get rid of them but would love to have them gone.

I vaguely remembered you saying something to that effect, but I guess I thought you'd already gotten them taken down. I suggest you just use the report button and ask that a mod take them down or change the font to red or something and add a message indicating that they're no longer valid.

 

[CT23]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=159784&page=189

On this page I saw the US (in the 1976 election map) has new island states that it didn't have OTL. I can see Cuba and Puerto Rico, but what are those others next to them?

 

[metastasis_d]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=159784&page=189

On this page I saw the US (in the 1976 election map) has new island states that it didn't have OTL. I can see Cuba and Puerto Rico, but what are those others next to them?

The one with the 9 is Dominica, OTL the Dominican Republic. It's the other half of Hispaniola (the West half is Haiti.)

Below that is Guadeloupe and Martinique; OTL 2 French islands in the Caribbean. They're North and South of Dominica.

To the left of Guadeloupe and Martinique are Panama and then the Nicaragua Canal Zone.

OTL the US almost acquired the Dominican Republic; if I recall correctly ITTL a butterfly made it to where the US did. The Nicaragua Canal was built by the US in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was built by the French. Panama and the French Caribbean islands were gained in TTL's Great War equivalent. Again, if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm not mixing up the canals, anyway.

 

[Luminous]

The one with the 9 is Dominica, OTL the Dominican Republic. It's the other half of Hispaniola (the West half is Haiti.)

Below that is Guadeloupe and Martinique; OTL 2 French islands in the Caribbean. They're North and South of Dominica.

To the left of Guadeloupe and Martinique are Panama and then the Nicaragua Canal Zone.

OTL the US almost acquired the Dominican Republic; if I recall correctly ITTL a butterfly made it to where the US did. The Nicaragua Canal was built by the US in lieu of the Panama Canal, which was built by the French. Panama and the French Caribbean islands were gained in TTL's Great War equivalent. Again, if I recall correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm not mixing up the canals, anyway.

Or, more specifically, the Panama Canal itself was gained ITTL's Great War. The US purchased the upper half of the Panamanian isthmus from Columbia.