I think Chiang might try to negotiate with Stalin- Even more friendly manpower in the fight against Japan, in exchange for Stalin ditching the CCP.
The Twin Vipers: A TL of the Berlin-Moscow Axis
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thaddeus
Donor
IF Germany allied themselves with USSR, they would give little concern over Italian plans for the Balkans. Romanian oil was part of their war plans for years, one way or the other (THAT even pre-dates the Nazi regime)and with no future prospect of capturing Soviet oilfields, it becomes even more of a target.
Germany, USSR, Hungary, and Bulgaria could quickly reduce Romania to borders of old Kingdom
USSR won't be getting anything in the Balkans. For the middle east Italy's desires end at Iraq So the USSR can take Iran and whatever parts of eastern Turkey it wants.
What can Britain and Free France offer Italy that the USSR and Germany can't give not to mention all of Italy's territorial desires are on Allied land. They gain more far from an alliance with the Axis and with less effort .
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Reason why Stalin will not get anything in the Balkans? It's the historical zone of influence of Russia, Uncle Joe was in the end a big russian nationalist...and looking at Romania he had taken more than what granted by the original M-R treaty. Stalin want Turkey both as territory and as a satellite, plus the old russian dream of getting control of the straits and this mean having access to the Mediterrean aka a zone of prime interest for Italy. Italy desire will end at Iraq...not the Soviet one, expecially if they get control of Turkey
Not really, Stalin as said is litteraly direct competition, both as a person for direct influence in the alliance and the URSS as a nation because both nation had the same target...basically it's trying to have in the same alliance A-H and Tsarist Russia. While Benny coveted territory in allied hand, he and more importantly who support him (the King, the military and the industrialist) fear more an expansion of communist influences and having the Soviet gain foothold so near italy and the zone where she had big commercial interest it's a very big no no.
Your not going to end up with Soviet Puppet states in Yugoslavia or Bulgaria. Germany and Italy won't allow it.
Whatever or not they conflict over somewhere like Iraq is irrelevant as the Territory is still held by Britain and thousands of miles away
Expect it won't be anywhere near Italy and had they been this opposed to Soviet Union, They wouldn't have signed a pact with the Soviets and would have broken ties with Germany over the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact .
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General Ripper
Banned
German declaration of war on Finland seems as bit too much, not very plausible to me... German non interfering in Soviet invastion is plausible, but not active assistance. And USSR don't needs or want's German assistance there.
As said, commerce and money are one thing (Italy needed resources and can't be too choosy, expecially when can get a much better price), formal military-political alliance is another and much of the agreement was more or less a move because Germany looked more menacing due to Hitler rise.
If the Soviet invade Iran and Turkey, Iraq is just behind the corner for them and in any case from there they can basically control the ME blocking any Italian attempt.
And with what? If the URSS is allied with Germany, surely they will prefer divide the Balkans with her and frankly ignore Italian interest as it's merely a neutral and the URSS it's vital to the German war effort, and Stalin will want to expand there the Soviet control in the region.
If Italy try to join when France fall, this will not chance anything in the Balkans as any compensation there will need to come out from Stalin prize and i doubt that the Man of Steel will give up so easily something, expecially towards someone that had joined when all the job seemed over; as said is like having A-H and Tsarist Russia in the same alliance, the interest clash with each other with the power of thousands sun
Why's that? As long as Germany isn't making claims to any Finnish lands (and in the MR pact he effectively did this), Stalin won't have any reason to get upset about it, while a blockade costs Hitler basically nothing and shows the rest of the world (or at least the part that is listening) that Germany is a reliable ally.
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General Ripper
Banned
Because Germany can barely tolerate unprovokd Soviet attack on Finland out of necessity, but actively assisting them? Unthinkable.
The M-R pact basically said "Finland's yours, do what you want with it". If Hitler really didn't want Stalin in Finland, wouldn't he just leave that out entirely (even if Stalin does invade anyway)?
Also, unprovoked? "No comrade, they hit us first!"
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Not massively different to OTL. To the random American on the street that doesn't pay a lot of attention to the world, the only difference that he would notice would be that the Russians and Japanese are fighting, neither of which are people (or places) that he knows anything about anyway, so they can't be a great concern to the USA.
1. Ethopia has been owned in its entirety by Italy for at least three years, so the British saying "keep it" isn't an incentive at all.
2. What does that even mean?
3. Something called logistics (and probably production capacity as well) means such a drastic increase in LL isn't possible relative to OTL.
It's great that you like the TL, but can you please stop posting these random one-line suggestions that don't make much sense?
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How and there still fighting over territory neither one owns and is controlled by Britain and France. Also there no reason why they can't just compromise with Stalin over territory thousands of miles away that neither control and Italy has no way of reaching in the first place.
Yet his demands in the Balkan during the Axis-Soviet talks of 1940 was for bases in Bulgaria not a Croatian puppet state.Even if he demanded Bulgaria as a whole There still Yugoslavia and Greece. Not to mention there still the gains to made from France and Britain. Britain looks like it's going to make peace in 1940 why not join to gain some quick land from France and Britain.
I am very sorry. I was expressing an opinion, based on my own lifetime of interest on this subject.
1 I thought there might be an attempt to revive the so called stresa front, to split german and italian fascism.
2 According to Hitler's racial hierarchy. Indian people's were considered aryan. Subas Bose was a former acolyte of Independence who rejected non violence.
3 Perhaps you are correct.
1 I thought there might be an attempt to revive the so called stresa front, to split german and italian fascism.
2 According to Hitler's racial hierarchy. Indian people's were considered aryan. Subas Bose was a former acolyte of Independence who rejected non violence.
3 Perhaps you are correct.
thaddeus
Donor
this is what killed the historical cooperation, the invasion of Finland and loss of their little trading bloc of Poland, Finland, and the Baltics. of course they schemed to divide Poland but loss of the others left them completely depending on Soviet trade. (yes, aware they signed it away, but reality bites sometimes)
(just IMHO) Nazi regime might be able to tolerate Soviets involved in Balkans (Bulgaria, European Turkey) but not there AND swallowing the countries around the Baltic?
No worries mate. I'm always happy to discuss suggestions. Just that when I see a post like "lend lease times ten", my first thought is that of a protester's chant, not a suggestion
Ah, I see what you're saying. Within the context of the TL, which requires a certain level of Hitler's willingness to cooperate with the USSR to work, I think it is reasonable that he might decide differently to OTL regarding Finnish trade. After all, it is Hitler we're talking about, and his opinions changed with the weather. Here the weather moved a bit differently.
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General Ripper
Banned
It isn't about trade, it's about Hitler's anticommunism and about assisting Soviet untermenschen attack Nordic nation like Finland.
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