The Turul on the Bosporus

formion

Banned
@Tibi088 very interesting comment!

Can you describe perhaps more of the political and socioeconomic landscape of pre-1200 Hungary? I don't have knowledge on the topic and it will make a very stimulating conversation how the growing influence of the Empire can affect the development of Hungary.

On the topic though, as a short/mid term solution, the nobles can possibly be placated with lands, incomes or offices in the newly conquered Wallachia and Asia Minor, not to mention mercenary service in the Imperial Tagmata and courtier positions in the Constantinopolitan Court. The East Roman Empire had a well established tradition in integrating foreign elites.
 
@Tibi088 very interesting comment!

Can you describe perhaps more of the political and socioeconomic landscape of pre-1200 Hungary? I don't have knowledge on the topic and it will make a very stimulating conversation how the growing influence of the Empire can affect the development of Hungary.

On the topic though, as a short/mid term solution, the nobles can possibly be placated with lands, incomes or offices in the newly conquered Wallachia and Asia Minor, not to mention mercenary service in the Imperial Tagmata and courtier positions in the Constantinopolitan Court. The East Roman Empire had a well established tradition in integrating foreign elites.

First i want to stress that im not an expert of the time period. However as a former history student and a hungarian I was required to study it to a certain degree. So I will only write what im sure of or at least warn if im not.

Hungary under Béla III - this timeline Bela-Alexios - was a vasly different beast than most here think. Bela OTL married or tried to marry the daughter of the french king. The important part is that we have a very rare document surviving in association with this regarding the incomes of Bela III. I dont remember the numbers but his income was comparable or even a bit higher than that of the King of france. The reason was that though Hungary was much poorer and less populated Bela controlled most of the realm directly. Beside this the only thing I remember clearly in regards of the economy was a statement in regards ofthe trade of the country in connection with the 4th crusade: Before the fourth crusade and the fall of Kiev to the mongols Hungary was a western periferie of the East. After that it became the eastern periferie of the west.

On politics: the important thing is that Hungary lies between the HRE and the Byzantine Empire. In the centuries before Bela various hungarian kings - all scions of the Árpád dynasty with 1 exception - gained the throne with the support of either the byzantines or the germans. Succession of the throne was rarely simple at the time period. Primogeniture was not unisersally accepted simply because a lot of the actual rulers would have lost they legitimacy if they accepted it.

Hungary at the end of the 1100's was still a pretty young country. If I remember correctly more than 2/3 of the land was directly in the kings hand - im not sure of the number but he was dominant. The organized in to territorial divisions called 'vármegye'. 'Vár' means fort and 'megye' means county. The name was a description of the system. Each Vármegye had an actual fort as his centre of organization. The forts were in the vast majority of the cases earth forths - they proved pretty useless during the mongol invasion. However the lack of stone walled forts and settlements also made it impossible the rise of a strong nobility that could effectivly oppose the king - things changed after the mongols. The forts and the whole county was led by an official called Várispán. He was a representative of the king and the title was not hereditary I think and I think that he was not a noble on his own - but im very unsure of this part. The military organization too rested on this - the várispán led the military people of the county in to battle. The system covered most of the country but there wer exception. Most notably the szeklers - at the time there were szekler groups outside of Transylvania along various border territories - their traditional role was border guards. In Transylvania they still lived in the middle of the territory - they were only moved to were we find them today by the order of András II - after Bela III. The saxons were not yet in Transylvania I think.

Along the border existed a border defens system called 'gyepü'. This was a huge swathe of territory left intentionally unpopulated and made hard to cross . Im not sure when it finally ceased to exist but I think it still existed at the time of Bela III.

This is what comes to mind in regards of the period right now- I could check some of my old notes and look up some books but im at work right know.
 
Last edited:

formion

Banned
Thanks @Tibi088 for the reply and the information !

I haven't read this book yet -https://b-ok.cc/book/2686360/ccf192 "Nobility, Land and Service in Medieval Hungary", but it seems quite interesting and also relevant to this timeline.

 
Thanks @Tibi088 for the reply and the information !

I haven't read this book yet -https://b-ok.cc/book/2686360/ccf192 "Nobility, Land and Service in Medieval Hungary", but it seems quite interesting and also relevant to this timeline.

I didnt heard of that book yet but I checked his references. It seems good though most of his sources are pretty old - a lot of them come from either around 1900 or the communist era - end barely anything after that. Especially the latter should be handled with extreme caution. There were certain unwritten rules that historians had to abide by.
 
Last edited:
My guess would be that giving away Royal lands was done simply to foster a knightly class like in Western and Central Europe.

Pay for regular troops and/mercenaries in the Byzantine model is a plausible alternative.
 
I didnt heard of that book yet but I checked his references. It seems good though most of his sources are pretty old - a lot of them come from either around 1900 or the communist era - end barely anything after that. Especially the latter should be handled with extreme caution. There were certain unwritten rules that historians had to abide by.

Send me information in Magyar please, not sure about the English language rules for this board but PM will be fine.

You are of course absolutely correct, Hungary was not a perfectly feudal state and some considerations mooted here won't be applicable to the timeline.
 

trajen777

Banned
The problem with that assasment is, that the magnates dont exist at this point of time. In Hungary the vast majority of the land was under the direct control of the king - this changed in the early 1200's under András II who wanted to reorganize the realm on a more traditional feudal basis or something like that, im not sure of his reasoning but it was him who granted huge swathes of lands to nobles thus creating the magnates in Hungary. Before that the governance was a very different matter but as I have no idea how to translate the terminology to english I will refrain from going in to details.

Interesting i never knew that. The basis of my comment was the Bulgarian situation with the "nobles" that regained power after the conquest John Tzimezes (sp?) -- and had read in passing the Hungarian nobles, but was unsure of the dates. Good info.
 

trajen777

Banned
Very interesting 3rd crusade situation. Barbarossa with (20 - 50 k depending on sources) his forces, not having to fight in Anatolia + Byz forces (lets use the army of 40 k discussed in the early post) marching south towards Aleppo. Richard from the sea in Palestine and you have Saladin stuck in the middle trying to defend his two strengths (Aleppo and the road to Egypt). So my guess is under a normal situation he would go north to defend Aleppo (good defenses) but being this outnumbered he would need to be a more defensive oriented leader. Defend on one front and fight in the other. Because of the size of the military against him he would need to attack Richard (did not work to well for him in the real world) and defend in the north with forts.
SO Perhaps:

1. Barb & Alexis attack towards Aleppo & then down the coast.
2. Aleppo walls breached but the central keep holds (10 k troops left to besiege)
3. Saladin attacks Richard at Acre. (same results and he withdraws towards Jersul)
4. Barb and Alexis march south taking or besieging cities
5. French and English stay in more common alliance with the successes of the north.
6. March on Jersu and then Damascus (how many crusaders leave after the success of Jersu win?)
So who stays in the crusader states and how much do they fall under Byz influence ?

The great problem with the Crusader states is their land was open to raids because of a lack of control of the inland cities (Damas, Aleppo, Hama, Homs). If you take these it reduces the ability of the Arabs to mount invasions or raids against the inland farms etc. Take these outer cities and you have gained more wealth and make your inland areas more productive. Take Egypt and then you have massive wealth as well as forcing the Arabs into a capital difficult state.

So Byz gains Aleppo, some cities on the sea, and a more dependent Crusader state once most of the Crusaders leave

Then Egypt

Anyway great TL -- the 3rd crusade will be interesting !!!!!!!!! So will be the following situation in Sicily ...... (who could marry Richards sister from Byz ??)
 
1169-1188 Rollup Timeline
As requested --

1169 – 1188 Rollup Timeline:


1169:


Manuel Komnenos’ wife Maria of Antioch gives birth to a daughter. Manuel begins to accelerate the process of grooming Béla of Hungary for the throne of the Empire as his adopted son and betrothed of his eldest daughter, Maria Porphyrogenete.


1170:


Without any significant deviation from historical in events, Manuel begins to take some measures to prepare for following through with the succession. It is then he decides on the method of first crowning Maria as Co-Emperor and then Béla as Alexios to give time for the people to become used to them and blunt the impact of his decision while he is still alive and can exert his influence on the situation.


1171:


In 1171 after Maria of Antioch gives birth to a second daughter, Manuel begins to execute his strategy. He resigns himself to the succession of Béla and resolves to see it through. First, he has his daughter Maria Porphyrogenete crowned Co-Emperor at his side, a remarkable gesture of endorsement of the succession through her. Immediately after her crowning in the Blachernae, she is married to Béla-Alexios, who is not yet made a Co-Emperor to Manuel as Manuel works to placate and intimidate by equal turns the nobility into accepting the arrangement. Amalric pledges loyalty to the Empire as King of Jerusalem, but this is almost immediately irrelevant.


1172:


In 1172, Maria Porphyrogenete gives birth with Béla-Alexios’ first son. The pregnancy puts Manuel in an impossible situation when Béla’s older brother unexpectedly dies without heirs. While marching to campaign against a minor rebellion of Slavic lords in the Balkans, a delegation from Hungary meets the Emperor and Béla at Sardica and begs for the return of the rightful King of Hungary. Béla refuses to choose between the thrones, and instead proposes the daring plan to the Emperor of ruling both as King of Hungary and Emperor of Rome alongside his wife. Béla-Alexios assents to the idea of ruling from Constantinople—Manuel insisting that it would be impossible otherwise—and Manuel reluctantly assents to the plan, but insists that if it is to be, they will cross the Rubicon—and gamble strongly. The first son shall inheirit both nations.


1173:


Béla's brother, Géza, is his primary rival to his rule, and despite his relatively quick acclaimation in Esztergom, his brother has the support of their mother and of Duke Henry of Austria, and mobilizes an Army to contest the throne against his brother. Béla raises an Army of five thousand men to face him quickly, and they meet on the fields of Gyor in western Hungary. The King's Army is victorious and he captures and imprisons his brother and mother, but the Archbishop Lucas of Esztergom still refuses to crown him as King, whipping up propaganda under the pretext of schismatic tendencies. Privately he demands that Béla first promise to reunify the Churches on Roman terms once he is Emperor of the East. Béla refuses to commit even in secret and instead simply promises to support another Church council; in the end the Pope permits the Archbishop of Kalocsa to crown Béla King of Hungary.


1174:


Béla spends the entire year in Esztergom, administering Hungary, including undertaking reforms to the Court based on his experience in Constantinople and the Empire. As a practical matter these reforms serve to improve the crown revenue; in certain respects, Hungary is almost as centralised as the Empire under the Komnenian Dynasty. Relaxing defensive requirements in the border-lands facing the Empire, he creates conditions for improvement in the wealth of the Székelys (borderers) and improvements in the level of fortification on other frontiers.


Inside the Empire, Manuel is preoccupied dealing with several conspiracies against the decision to elevate Béla into his presumptive heir with the marriage, the birth of the heir of Béla-Alexios and Maria, and the elevation of Maria to nominally Co-Regnant. Because Manuel’s position is very secure, these plots come to nothing, however, they distract his attention, allowing Maria to carve out actual authority for herself in the management of the Imperial household and court. Whereas Manuel had begun to reduce the numbers of eunuchs and allow the “bearded” officers into the eunuchs’ offices of state, Maria feels the eunuchs will be more reliable to the Crown in the context of the rule of herself and her husband; she begins to increase their number again.


1175:


By midyear, Manuel calls Alexios to campaign with him. Alexios calls the Hungarian troops he has at his disposal, leaving enough to secure the Kingdom, and rides to Constantinople. There, Manuel is concentrating a considerable Army. The objective of the campaign is nothing less than the reconquest of central Anatolia. Equipped considerably with engines of war, it is one of the largest Armies in recent times raised by the Empire, 40,000 men or more. Meeting his son in law, the two armies cross over into Anatolia and winter near Philadelphia before continuing the campaign.


1176:


With Béla as the second in command of the combined Army, the force advances on Iconium with the engines necessary to put the city to siege. West of the city, the Hungarian scouts locate the Turkish Army positioned at Myriokephalon. Béla prevails upon the Emperor to deploy into battle formation and force the siege engines through quickly under a cordon while assaults by the leading divisions are carried onto the heights on each flank of the pass before the Turks can deploy into order of battle. In a day of doubtful struggle, Béla clears the Turks from the left, scaling the heights on foot to dislodge them from their position in the rocks, and the Imperial-Hungarian Army is victorious. Regrouping beyond the pass, it becomes clear the Turks were weaker than had been expected and cannot muster again to oppose their march on Iconium, which falls to the Imperial siege engines. The Sultan of Rum flees as a refugee with his family, and is ultimately granted asylum at Saladin’s court, several years hence.


1177:


Through 1177 and into the summer, Béla and Manuel campaign together in central Anatolia, suppressing resistance to the reimposition of Imperial rule. They reduce strongholds and defeat resisting bands and forces of Turkish cavalry. As they do, they settle behind them the second sons of Hungarian Lords and other Hungarian men eager for lands of their own, using the pronoia system to integrate them into the new frontier of the Empire. Leaving behind troops to continue the campaigning and settlements, the Emperor and the King return to Constantinople, where Béla meets his second son Constantine. There, he talks Manuel out of considering an expedition to Egypt, and proposes his own to eastern Anatolia and Georgia, but in the end they decide to conduct no expeditions and focus on securing and settling central Antolia as best as they can, where considerable armed resistance continues.


1178:


Having returned to Constantinople victorious against the Turk with Anatolia regained, Manuel takes the great favour of the people for himself and Béla-Alexios and arranges for Alexios to be crowned as Co-Caesar of the Empire like his wife. This cements and confirms Alexios’ position as Manuel’s heir and definitively settles the succession, though again it presses Manuel into dealing with schemes and opposition amongst the magnates of the Empire.


1179:


The Matter of Hungary had necessarily needed to be settled. Béla, to rule both Kingdom and Empire, needed a steady and reliable hand on the tiller. Béla travels back to Esztergom to deal with the administration of the Kingdom. To this he arranged the marriage of his sister Helen to Baldwin of Antioch, the son of Constance of Antioch and the Knight Raynald of Chatillon. The young man, only twenty-four years of age at Myriokephalon, had nonetheless been one of the ablest of Manuel’s commanders and had become a true bosom friend of Béla’s, a pure knight, but competent enough to restrain himself when needed, and much favoured by the old Emperor. Married to Helen of Hungary, the two become co-Viceroys just as Béla and Maria are to be co-Sovereigns. In Constantinople, Manuel is mired in the last theological dispute of his reign over the wording of the anathemas that must be said by Muslim converts to Christianity.


1180:


The Emperor Manuel dies in his bed in Constantinople. At his great funeral, the man who succeeded in the reconquest of Anatolia is honoured, and henceforth it is Béla and Maria who alone sit side-by-side as Co-Sovereigns, moving from the old Bucoleon which Manuel gifted them into the primary Imperial residence of the Blachernae. A rough division of responsibilities between the happy spouses occurs with Béla focusing on the military, religion and foreign policy and Maria on the domestic civil administration.


1181:


Béla launches his Trans-Oltenia campaign, combining forces of the Hungarian and Imperial forces to conquer the Trans-Olt for Hungary, organising it as part of the Crown of Hungary as the Banat of Severin. This lightly peopled area begins to fill in the area in the Balkans which neither Hungary nor the Empire controls and starts to secure trade routes from the Empire into Transylvania for merchants traveling between the two unified crowns. Preoccupied in the campaign, it is his wife Maria who takes the lead in negotiating with the Venetians to end the contention with them that her father began.


Reaching an agreement which allows a Venetian settlement further up the Horn from Galata, she gains the support of the Venetian merchants in the city which allows her to respond to the beginning of conspiracy against her and her husband. The conspiracy takes the form of an uprising organised by Isaac Angelos. Alerted by one of the eunuchs of the Imperial Post on essentially counter-espionage duty, she is able to deploy loyal troops first. Using the Vardariotai to break the crowd with whips, she locates the majority of the conspirators and has them interrogated and blinded, but Isaac Angelos himself escapes to Italy.


1182:


After returning to the capital to help Maria secure the political situation there, in the next year, Alexios begins to campaign in Muntenia, the cis-Olt region of Wallachia. While campaigning across the Danube, emissaries from the Kingdom of Georgia arrive to meet with him, and he holds an audience for them in Varna on the coast of the Black Sea. Abandoning prior thoughts of forcing the Georgians back into a tributary position, he negotiates an agreement for a joint campaign in eastern Anatolia against the Muslims, instead.


1183:


Alexios leads his army through Anatolia in early 1183, campaigning to destroy bands of Turkish bandits and warriors which still harass the new Christian settlers in the central Highlands. At Charpete in the east, the Imperial and Georgian armies combine, having easily crushed several of the armies of the eastern Anatolia Emirates. They then advance upon Diyarbakr (Amida) and put the city to siege. By that point, Saladin has responded to their presence, and puts aside his quarrels with the Emir of Mosul to lead a large Army north.


In debates between Alexios’ generals and Lord Sargis, the commander of the Georgian Army, the Imperial-Georgian forces end up building lines of Circumvallation and Contravallation around Amida, just for Saladin to refuse to face them directly and instead spend the next months harassing their supply lines. They have enough food and canals to carry water to their lines, but the Muslims work to contaminate them and to prevent the Imperial-Georgian Army from gathering fodder, which weakens the cavalry. Rather than risk the continued weakening of their cavalry, Alexios changes course and attempts to break out.


Saladin offers battle to contain them, but the Imperial horse is still hale enough to break through and secure the survival of the Army, though much of the siege train is lost. Retreating from Amida, Saladin is unable to break through the Imperial lines, which maintain good order as they fall back north of the city, looking forward to a field battle to overturn the result of the failed siege. Instead of offering battle, Saladin negotiates and, conceding the Imperial and Georgian gains in the northern part of eastern Anatolia as vassals to the Christians, a five-year truce with the Empire and the Georgians is agreed to.


1184:


On his return through Anatolia, Alexios leads his Army and the local Hungarian pronoia on campaign against the Turkish bands which have been steadily ground down to little more than large forces of organised bandits. If anything this duty is more important to the stability of the Empire than the campaign against Amida, and it concludes with Béla-Alexios returning to his wife in Constantinople. There they discuss the need for a new quarter of the city to address the weakness of her father’s expanded walls around the Blachernae and provide a place of settlement for the large population of Hungarians which has begun to move to Constantinople to be near their King and form a court overseas for him. It is agreed to call this the Quarter of the Vardariotai and place a new, larger barrack for that force—which is to be expanded--within it. Construction begins, though the pace is slow.


1185:


The Normans remain cautious with regard to the strength of the Dual-Monarchy, though they grow harassing in their communiques about trade privileges within Imperial land. Considering the diplomatic situation in Italy with the King of Germany on the ascendancy against the Pope and rumours of negotiations to marry his son to the aunt of the King of Norman Sicily, Béla organises an Imperial army, with some Hungarian adventurers, to sail to Ancona, where a Byzantine garrison has been in place since early in Manuel’s reign. This small Army, under General Branas, is assigned to face the Imperial troops in the Marche.


1186:


Alexios leads another campaign into Multenia to subdue a renewed rebellion of the Cumans and local Vlach petty Lords, in the spring of the year. After returning to Constantinople in the summer, he goes on a tour to Anatolia where the Army continues to campaign against the Turkish in the central part of the country as well, making attempts to induce them to convert and surrender in exchange for employment in the Army and land in Multenia.


In the Marche, General Branas feints and counter-marches and moves his army from town and city and hill and valley, facing Markward von Annweiler. The redoubtable soldier of the Staufer is still outmatched by the legendary Imperial General, who at Teramo inside the borders of Norman Sicily within the old Duchy of Spoleto, overthrows completely the small army of von Annweiler with his own forces. Markward escapes, but the better part of the German force is destroyed and Branas consolidates a loose Imperial control over the Duchy of Spoleto to the north and the southermost part of the Marche around Ancona.


1187:


The Army of the Kingdom of Jerusalem is overthrown at Hattin and Saladin sweeps through the Kingdom, conquering all the castles and cities within in it except a thin strip of the coast. A desperate plea for help travels from one end of Christendom to the other, but it is not until news of the fall of Jerusalem reaches him that Béla, busy with the administration of the Empire and campaigns in Wallachia, considers responding, in particular respecting his five-year truce with Saladin.


1188:


When Béla-Alexios decides to respond to the plea for help from Jerusalem, it is by reaching out to Queen Tamar of Georgia. It is by diplomatic agreement with the redoubtable Queen of the Georgians that the Empire draws up its plans for a campaign in support of Outremer.
 
I was reading again the latest chapter, realizing how much more interesting will be this TTL third crusade. It would provvide even more material for literate works across Europe, Hungary and the Balkans included, seeing how the Amida aftermath went as prelude.

I have the feeling Alexios won't truly believe about the voices regarding the fall of Jerusalem. He met Saladin, they were exquisitely chivalrious towards each other, the Sultan must have done a certain impression to the Emperor, considering the words of Maria seeing him as an instrument of God, I think Alexios spoke well of Saladin to his wife. And Saladin would likely respect him, as well. Probably it wouldn't happen, but maybe the Sultan could have tried a last diplomatic agreement before the expiration of the truce. Albeit I don't know what could have offered to the Emperor in exchange of Jerusalem.

And if Frederick Barbarossa would ask transit through Hungary and the Balkans then the Anatolian lands...

Also, I wonder if Alexios will meet also Philippe August and Richard Lionheart... a meeting which TTL will surely excitate the fantasy of writers and artists through the ages.
 
How savvy is Alexios? Maria seems like the sort to advise letting the Crusaders through to have them grind down Saladin, only to swoop in and take the kill. The truce is about to expire after all, the least they can do is take this opportunity to smash the petty Turkish beyliks.
 
Top