The Sunne in Splendour: A War of the Roses Timeline

Here's the thing, we don't actually know what the will said because it's been lost to time/destroyed. But afaik there was never any notion of the will saying the Woodvilles should run everything - in fact things seem to point to the opposite. Richard was probably meant to be the Protector (what the Woodvilles' role was to be is unknown) and the Woodvilles then moved to crown Edward V quickly so no Protectorate was needed and so they could grab power.

Plus in April 1483 Richard was the more popular candidate. A proven military and political leader, as well as being popular and the brother of the King. The Woodvilles, on the other hand, were widely disliked and seen as parvenus. Richard (and a significant chunk of the court) was never going to allow Woodville dominance.
Most historians agree Richard was not the one that was supposed to be regent for the young Edward V. Richard obviously would have not destroyed the copies if it was in his favor.

Moreover, he illegally usurped the throne from his nephew, even if he did not kill him. Richard was more popular, but that doesn’t make imprisoning your nephews any more correct.
 
Most historians agree Richard was not the one that was supposed to be regent for the young Edward V. Richard obviously would have not destroyed the copies if it was in his favor.
Who are "most historians" in this instance? I'm unfortunately away from my books at the moment so can't 100% say for certain, but all my prior knowledge points to Richard as being Protector for the reasons I put forward earlier. He was proven, popular, trusted and the closest adult male blood relative to Edward - the standard for being Protector.

And I never said Richard destroyed the will, or that it was even definitely destroyed. Just that it was a possibility. Anyone could've done it: the Woodvilles, Richard (but unlikely for reasons you said), or maybe even Henry Tudor - because he destroyed a lot of information about Richard and his reign.

Moreover, he illegally usurped the throne from his nephew, even if he did not kill him. Richard was more popular, but that doesn’t make imprisoning your nephews any more correct.
When did the Princes come into what I said? I'm talking purely about April 1483, not June onwards. And it's best to not get into a discussion about the Princes or Richard's usurpation because they never end well, but there is the possibility his usurpation/accession wasn't illegal. If there was proof of bastardy, Richard was the next in line. But again, information on that was lost/destroyed.
 
Who are "most historians" in this instance? I'm unfortunately away from my books at the moment so can't 100% say for certain, but all my prior knowledge points to Richard as being Protector for the reasons I put forward earlier. He was proven, popular, trusted and the closest adult male blood relative to Edward - the standard for being Protector.

And I never said Richard destroyed the will, or that it was even definitely destroyed. Just that it was a possibility. Anyone could've done it: the Woodvilles, Richard (but unlikely for reasons you said), or maybe even Henry Tudor - because he destroyed a lot of information about Richard and his reign.


When did the Princes come into what I said? I'm talking purely about April 1483, not June onwards. And it's best to not get into a discussion about the Princes or Richard's usurpation because they never end well, but there is the possibility his usurpation/accession wasn't illegal. If there was proof of bastardy, Richard was the next in line. But again, information on that was lost/destroyed.
By “most historians” I am talking about what is the general consensus among historians as to whether or not he was supposed to be regent.

As for who destroyed the will, we cannot be for certain, but Richard is very likely suspect.

If you want to discuss the usurpation of Richard III, you have to talk about the Princes in the Tower. He did unjustly imprison children, something which, even if he was popular, can not possibly seen as a positive lightThere is not a single reputable scrap of evidence saying that Edward, or his children, were illegitimate, else than rumors. Just Ricardian propaganda.

Both Ricardian and Tudor propaganda have had a major effect on the official history.

Richard was by no means a saint, but he was not a maniacal villain. He was somewhere in between.
 
That was part of what drove me crazy in Shakespeare's Richard III. Now, granted, I'm a Ricardian. But it absolutely burns that Richard was painted in shades of deepest black, whereas George was painted as the pure and innocent victim.

Victim my ass...

George was one of the most treacherous villains in British history. He not only betrayed Edward IV, more than once, but he also kidnapped Anne Neville, and tried to marry her off, against her will, to either himself or his son.

Not an innocent victim. Not even close...

George was honestly a terrible person. When he kidnapped Anne Neville I do not think he was trying to marry Anne to himself of his son, as his son had not been born yet, and George himself was currently married to Isabel Neville.
Granted, even if Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury escaped -which I think is possible-, Richard should have respected his brothers will and just let the Woodvilles run everything. I do not think either of the York brothers are entirely innocent, but George is definitely the worse of the two, by far.

George after getting custody of his widowed sister-in-law Anne wanted send her in a convent for making his own wife Isabella the only heiress of the Warwick and Salisbury wealth. He was a treasonous snake and yes was without doubt much worse than Richard, but they were quite similar.

@Bob_Jenko: if the plan was to crown Edward V immediately then he would not require a formal Regent/Lord Protector, but the King would be seen as adult and in practice the Council would rule for him (and Edward was definitely old enough for being crowned as Henry VI was 9 and Richard II 10 at their coronations)
 
As for who destroyed the will, we cannot be for certain, but Richard is very likely suspect.
Richard is the "very likely suspect" for most of what went down in 1483-5 so I personally don't see it as sound. Plus I rarely just take these things at face value, especially when in reference to Richard III.
If you want to discuss the usurpation of Richard III, you have to talk about the Princes in the Tower. He did unjustly imprison children, something which, even if he was popular, can not possibly seen as a positive lightThere is not a single reputable scrap of evidence saying that Edward, or his children, were illegitimate, else than rumors. Just Ricardian propaganda.
Again, I wasn't referring to the usurpation itself, just the situation when Edward IV died in 1483. Though again, even saying he "unjustly imprisoned" the Princes could be scrutinised. The Tower was a royal residence and the Princes were seemingly treated well during their public stay there. And also dismissing the bastardy as "Ricardian propaganda" is an issue because as you say, there is no evidence... but no evidence either way. They are "rumours" now and from sources after the fact, but no one can know what Richard saw and what Richard believed at the time. Henry Tudor after his usurpation destroyed many documents, the contents of which we will never know. But hypothetically, if there was something proving the bastardy, Henry would've destroyed it. No way could he have any sort of document saying the Princes (and by extension his wife) weren't legitimate.
Richard was by no means a saint, but he was not a maniacal villain. He was somewhere in between.
Indeed. And I have a lot of thoughts on the matter. But best to not derail this thread further by going into too much detail on them.
if the plan was to crown Edward V immediately then he would not require a formal Regent/Lord Protector, but the King would be seen as adult and in practice the Council would rule for him (and Edward was definitely old enough for being crowned as Henry VI was 9 and Richard II 10 at their coronations)
Yes, that's what I was trying to say. As I understand it (but will need to refresh my memory), the Woodvilles wanted a quick coronation so the (Woodville dominated) council would rule and there would be no need for Richard to be Lord Protector.
 
I think most historians agree Richard was the intended regent and the Woodvilles got pissy about it.
If a Regency was effectively planned, something extremely unlikely as Edward was 13 and England had previously crowned a 9 years old and a 10 years old Kings
 
Its not the amount of children that worries me. It's the pacing between the pregnancies.
And yet, that is exactly why noble women used wet nurses. They were expected to be able to conceive again as soon as possible. We (with 21’st Century eyes) don’t have to like it, but that doesn’t mean that’s not the way things were. If one wife was all used up and died, she was likely replaced quite quickly. Look at Ralph Neville 1st Earl of Westmorland, Cecily Neville’s father. He had eight children with Margaret Stafford, then she died in June of 1396. By the end of November that same year, he was remarried to Joan Beaufort (Cecily’s mother), who already had two children of her own. They went on to have FOURTEEN more children together. That’s one woman who had SIXTEEN children, and a man who fathered TWENTY-THREE. When one woman was all used up, he moved on to the next well-connected woman.
 
And yet, that is exactly why noble women used wet nurses. They were expected to be able to conceive again as soon as possible. We (with 21’st Century eyes) don’t have to like it, but that doesn’t mean that’s not the way things were. If one wife was all used up and died, she was likely replaced quite quickly. Look at Ralph Neville 1st Earl of Westmorland, Cecily Neville’s father. He had eight children with Margaret Stafford, then she died in June of 1396. By the end of November that same year, he was remarried to Joan Beaufort (Cecily’s mother), who already had two children of her own. They went on to have FOURTEEN more children together. That’s one woman who had SIXTEEN children, and a man who fathered TWENTY-THREE. When one woman was all used up, he moved on to the next well-connected woman.
Yes. I think common women who breastfed were less likely to die as result of childbirth even though they had worse medical attention because of the spacing between children. Breastfeeding isn't a reliable birth control method but can help you have one child every two years, rather than one every twelve months.
 
Yes. I think common women who breastfed were less likely to die as result of childbirth even though they had worse medical attention because of the spacing between children. Breastfeeding isn't a reliable birth control method but can help you have one child every two years, rather than one every twelve months.
Yes, working on my family tree I found I had many ancestors who had about ten children in twenty years (sometimes more!) and died long after they stopped having kids. Most were common women but there were a few noblewomen too and on the whole I think the average space between pregnancies for them was from 18 months to two years.
 
Yes, working on my family tree I found I had many ancestors who had about ten children in twenty years (sometimes more!) and died long after they stopped having kids. Most were common women but there were a few noblewomen too and on the whole I think the average space between pregnancies for them was from 18 months to two years.
That was just normal in that time. I am always surprised when people act shocked when they hear how many kids Eleanor of Aquitaine and Elizabeth Woodville had. I even know a family who, biologically, has eight kids. In the days before birth control, unless there is a problem, a married couple are going to have a large amount of kids.
 
That was just normal in that time. I am always surprised when people act shocked when they hear how many kids Eleanor of Aquitaine and Elizabeth Woodville had. I even know a family who, biologically, has eight kids. In the days before birth control, unless there is a problem, a married couple are going to have a large amount of kids.
My father was the third of eight kids. There would probably have been more, but that pesky WW2 was in between my dad and his older sister. The time between most of the siblings is around 18 months. Then there was my surprise aunt, who was born ten years after her next sister and over twenty years after my oldest uncle. She's actually a couple of weeks younger than my oldest cousin.
 
August 1474.
August 1474. East Sussex, England.

The two armies met in a large open field, the sun beating down on them in unforgivable scorch. It hadn’t rained for days, something unusual for England, and the ground beneath their horses was as hard as rocks, the tall grasses wilting under the strange heat. Edward of Lancaster, so-called Fourth of that Name, Rightful King of England and France and Lord of Ireland stared at his great enemy on the other side of the battlefield.

This was the grand finale of the Civil Wars. Only one King Edward would come out of the battle with his life, only one would cement a dynasty that could last a thousand years and Edward of Lancaster dearly hoped it would be him. He had a wife, a daughter and the legacy of his parents behind him.

He was the son of Henry VI and Marguerite de Anjou, King and Queen of England. He would not fail them, not now that they had both left him alone in this world. His mother had always had high expectations for him and he swore to Maisie that he would find a way to fix everything between them once he became king. They would fall in love again, truthfully, with careful words and tokens of affections.

They would have a son to inherit England after him and carry on the House of Lancaster through the ages. Blanche’s marriage to the Dauphin would be seen as a necessity, but with more children, his wife would show herself more amenable to parting with their firstborn, Edward was sure.

He closed his fingers tightly around the reins of his horse. He was wearing a full set of armour, like Edward of York was, though he could see the other man wore a golden crown around his helmet. Edward wanted to chuckle at his arrogance, but he couldn’t. Instead, he looked around him, at his men and his eyes met those of Edmund Beaufort through the crowd.

Edward closed his eyes and sent a quick prayer to his Lord, asking that God watch over him in the battle and protect him and his men. When he was finished, he made a cross and gave the signal for his army to advance.

The horses’ hooves were thunderous as they hit against the hard ground and the sound was deafening, a sharp contrast to the clear skies over them. Shouts echoed all around him as the two armies met, the song of steel clashing with steel reverberating through him until even his teeth, few as they were, were chattering.

Edward saw as the dead began to pile on, holding tightly to his sword and horse. Although he had been trained, he had little experience on the battlefield and this translated into shock running through his veins as he moved his arm on reflex, his blade running along the throat of a poor soul who came too close to him.

Blood sprayed on his face, hot and sticky, and someone screamed out. It took at least a minute before Edward belatedly realized it was him as someone stabbed his horse and threw him off his saddle. His entire body screamed out in pain, his throat burning with the force of his voice and someone from his army helped him stand up at the same time that he was stabbed in the back of his neck.

His helper fell to the ground, blood spurting out of his mouth and Edward only stared at him, watching as the life went off his eyes. The King raised his eyes, observing the chaos of the battlefield. The men lost, the children soon to be orphaned and the wives soon to be widowed. He finally realized the crows hanging over them, perched on the branches of the trees that surrounded the field. Black ravens, harbingers of death, awaiting the battle to be over for them to pounce and feast.

Edward was so utterly distracted that he failed to notice the men who came to pounce on him, blades in hand. They held him down as the sharp metallic teeth bit his flesh, hot blood pouring out of him, blood as red as Maisie’s auburn hair. He wanted to shout at them, to cry out for his mother.

He was only twenty, not even twenty-one. This war had taken everything from him and he fell to the hard ground with a clank, his helmet falling off of him and revealing his shock of golden hair. They didn’t stop, they felt no pity. He grunted as the air rushed out of him, thinking of his little Blanche. Sweet and gentle Blanche, who would cry if a fly was swatted away before her. Blanche with her bright red hair and deep blue eyes. She would be a great beauty once she grew, he was sure.

Except he would never know it.

Edward continued to bleed for far longer than anyone would think possible. It felt like hours had passed when at last, he felt sluggish exhaustion overtake him, the corners of his vision growing dark. He thought of his family, his father and his mother, his legacy. He was only twenty.

“Margaret…” he said with his last breath. Then, there was nothing.
 
“Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.”
 
This was the grand finale of the Civil Wars. Only one King Edward would come out of the battle with his life, only one would cement a dynasty that could last a thousand years and Edward of Lancaster dearly hoped it would be him. He had a wife, a daughter and the legacy of his parents behind him.
I mean, Westminster isn’t wrong
Edward was so utterly distracted that he failed to notice the men who came to pounce on him, blades in hand. They held him down as the sharp metallic teeth bit his flesh, hot blood pouring out of him, blood as red as Maisie’s auburn hair. He wanted to shout at them, to cry out for his mother.

He was only twenty, not even twenty-one. This war had taken everything from him and he fell to the hard ground with a clank, his helmet falling off of him and revealing his shock of golden hair. They didn’t stop, they felt no pity. He grunted as the air rushed out of him, thinking of his little Blanche. Sweet and gentle Blanche, who would cry if a fly was swatted away before her. Blanche with her bright red hair and deep blue eyes. She would be a great beauty once she grew, he was sure.

Except he would never know it.

Edward continued to bleed for far longer than anyone would think possible. It felt like hours had passed when at last, he felt sluggish exhaustion overtake him, the corners of his vision growing dark. He thought of his family, his father and his mother, his legacy. He was only twenty.

“Margaret…” he said with his last breath. Then, there was nothing.
How sad… But Huzzah for the rightful King Edward IV of England having no more opponents to his crown. May House York continue to prosper.
 
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