Heartland VS Periphery. Amusingly for the thread, in such a confrontation, the hotspots would be UK, France and Japan.
The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
- Thread starter WaterproofPotatoes
- Start date
- Status
I think in that scenario, Team Mahan wins. It isn't going to be easy and some of them won't like doing what needs to be done, but consider: Britain has India for manpower. India, the Middle East, and Africa provide base areas from which to attack Russia and/or China. The US brings utterly unassailable (with technology of the time) manufacturing and raw materials.
True, MacKinder has equivalents for most of these things also, but they do not have significant naval forces, and all of their resource transport has to go overland.
The land powers might not lose, at least for a long while, but I doubt they can win.
True, MacKinder has equivalents for most of these things also, but they do not have significant naval forces, and all of their resource transport has to go overland.
The land powers might not lose, at least for a long while, but I doubt they can win.
This scenario also means the Mahan alliance owns the Western Hemisphere, all of Oceania, most if not all of Africa - northern Africa might be a zone of friction depending on the situation in the Mediterranean.
Also, all Team Mahan has to do to win is not lose. Team Mackinder is the one that has to go on the offensive.
Last edited:
Plus South/South East Asia and Middle East, essentially in this scenario the Heartland is larger and the Rimland is pushed further south, east, and west:
This sounds like an amazing TL to write!
I have too much invested in this one to abandon it at this point, but I'd definitely contribute to a collaborative Mahan vs Mackinder TL
I have too much invested in this one to abandon it at this point, but I'd definitely contribute to a collaborative Mahan vs Mackinder TL
I'll go ahead and admit that this TL is something of a Mahan-wank (rather than a pure WI: Allied Japan/ EoJ wank 
). It was borne out of my previous TL discussing an alternate Washington Naval Treaty.
Basically, this is the result of a naval arms race extending from the end of WWII until 1927, followed by a degree of alarm, and then a 10-year "battleship holiday" put in place from 1927-37. Essentially a steam-turbine-punk Cold War. Ships are bigger and more numerous, stakes are higher.
The result was that Japan was spending even more of her budget on her Navy, the less radical Naval Establishment became more powerful, making it easier to squash the radical militarists in the IJA, and making a major economic partner all the more necessary. Germany was already co-operating with China, and gave it up OTL to ally with the more industrialized Japan- but here, Japan pivots back to Britain, which is relieved that her Far East colonies are in a safer position now. The USA doesn't really (really doesn't) like this, but knows that as long as Japan is allied with Britain, the likelihood of a Japanese attack is slim, as Britain would choose the more powerful USA if forced to choose.
The result (thus far, circa 1940) is basically a pared-down version: Team Mahan is Britain, France and Japan; Team Mackinder is the Third Reich and Nationalist China. The USSR, USA, and Italy are neutral thus far, but the first two can really flip the balance or create a new one.
). It was borne out of my previous TL discussing an alternate Washington Naval Treaty.Basically, this is the result of a naval arms race extending from the end of WWII until 1927, followed by a degree of alarm, and then a 10-year "battleship holiday" put in place from 1927-37. Essentially a steam-turbine-punk Cold War. Ships are bigger and more numerous, stakes are higher.
The result was that Japan was spending even more of her budget on her Navy, the less radical Naval Establishment became more powerful, making it easier to squash the radical militarists in the IJA, and making a major economic partner all the more necessary. Germany was already co-operating with China, and gave it up OTL to ally with the more industrialized Japan- but here, Japan pivots back to Britain, which is relieved that her Far East colonies are in a safer position now. The USA doesn't really (really doesn't) like this, but knows that as long as Japan is allied with Britain, the likelihood of a Japanese attack is slim, as Britain would choose the more powerful USA if forced to choose.
The result (thus far, circa 1940) is basically a pared-down version: Team Mahan is Britain, France and Japan; Team Mackinder is the Third Reich and Nationalist China. The USSR, USA, and Italy are neutral thus far, but the first two can really flip the balance or create a new one.
*cue the Frogs building some properly insane ships against all common sense and decency, like a super-Surcouf with battleship guns*
I'm surprised France isn't more of an important player here anyway. They did have a fairly decent modern fleet OTL which their officers scuttled to keep the Nazis from getting it and gaining a fleet to challenge Britain. Churchill was terrified of this prospect. He even had the British hunt down some French battleships in their port in Algeria and open fire on the (still friendly) French ships, killing almost 1300 French naval personnel and sinking one of their battleships. THEY have historically been the preeminent land power of Europe, not Germany. With
Will the Belgians have completed their section of the defensive fortifications on the Maginot Line ITTL?
Also: it appears based on the timeline that Hitler chose to mess around in Norway rather than the Spanish Civil War. Does this mean the 2nd Spanish Republic survived? No Guernica? I may have missed whether or not Franco and his goons came to power there.
Italy is expanding their Mediterranean possessions, correct? They held Albania and Libya at this point OTL, iirc. Where else are they trying to expand? Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria, & Romania are part of the German sphere. Slovenia and Croatia? As Catholic areas along their borders in a weak state that makes some sense, particularly Dalmatia which had a significant Italian minority iirc. They would have a claim on Kosovo as part of Albania.
Will the Belgians have completed their section of the defensive fortifications on the Maginot Line ITTL?
Also: it appears based on the timeline that Hitler chose to mess around in Norway rather than the Spanish Civil War. Does this mean the 2nd Spanish Republic survived? No Guernica? I may have missed whether or not Franco and his goons came to power there.
Italy is expanding their Mediterranean possessions, correct? They held Albania and Libya at this point OTL, iirc. Where else are they trying to expand? Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria, & Romania are part of the German sphere. Slovenia and Croatia? As Catholic areas along their borders in a weak state that makes some sense, particularly Dalmatia which had a significant Italian minority iirc. They would have a claim on Kosovo as part of Albania.
Les Rosbifs hated Surcouf
. They said "non" to croiseurs sous-marin at Geneva 1927. Britain always had a strained relationship with the submarine. Consider, for the example, the WWI K(alamity)-Class. The RN loved speed, and thought they needed a sub that could make 24 kn, to keep up with the Queen Elizabeth class battleships. The problem was that there were no diesel engines available at the time that were powerful enough to make that kind of speed. The solution? A steam turbine powered submarine on the surface, and battery electric below. More than one sank when the funnels were not retracted properly.
What the Marine Nationale gets here is a Paris Naval Treaty 1937 compliant (42 000 tons standard) OTL Richelieu-Alsace hybrid with 15"s to prevent the Italians from escalating to 16".
Richelieu Class (1935)
Flag: France
Type: Fast Battleship
Ships In Class:
Richelieu
Jean Bart
Dimensions: 853'x115'x32'. 42 000 tons standard
Propulsion: Oil-fired boilers, geared steam turbines. 200 000 shp, 31 kn rated speed.
Main Armament: 10 x 15"/L50 guns in 2 quadruple and 1 twin turret
Characteristics:
-Hull has a flush deck, a normal, raked bow with significant sheer and flare, and round stern
-Single funnel, exhaust outlet angled aft
-One quad 15" mount and one twin 15" mount (raised and superfiring) ahead of the superstructure, arranged on centreline ends; one quad 15" mount abaft superstructure and funnel on centreline ends
-One triple 6" mount abaft 15" mounts (double raised and superfiring) ahead of superstructure; 2 triple 6" mounts abaft superstructure and funnel, ahead of 15" mount, 1 raised, 1 double raised, both superfiring.
- DP secondaries arranged on sides around superstructure.
Last edited:
Not to worry, I will be getting to France after I get the Far East caught up! It's important enough that I want it to be the sole focus at that point without back-and-forth.
To address your other questions:
-Belguim- you'll have to wait and see, but 2 extra months isn't a lot of time
-Spain: Hitler did mess around in the Spanish Civil War, as in OTL. Norway started off much like OTL, but it started going really, really wrong for Hitler once the British intercepted the invasion force headed for Trondheim and Narvik. My apologies for not addressing it sooner. Spain remains officially neutral, as does Salazar's Portugal.
-Italy is indeed trying to rebuild their empire. TTL, they are building the 4 Littorio class battleships. They dispensed with modernizing the Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria classes as they are so thoroughly outclassed now, instead building an additional 4 Trento class heavy cruisers and additional submarines. So far, they invaded Albania in early 1939 as OTL, and although France wasn't pleased, no action was taken for fear of driving Mussolini into a pact with Hitler; appeasement rearing its head again.
The counterbalance is that the Royal Navy has more ships to station in the Mediterranean. The TTL Triumph class battleships are often on this station. As of 1940, Albania is the extent of their Balkan conquests. Libya is in Italian hands, although the Brits are keeping close watch; the situation is tense but tenable.
-Hungary under Horthy is officially an Axis-ally at this point; Romania and Bulgaria in all but a declaration
I'm still working my other TL too, maybe something like this will be next.
Team OTL Obligations has an unfair advantage, even more than a 1939 nuke.
Soo... a King George V with 15 inchers instead of 14 inchers? Kinda disappointing to see a reasonable design rather than an outlandish one the Frogs have been famous for over the past 150 years, with their share of successes - La Gloire or La Fayette - and failures.Les Rosbifs hated Surcouf
Don't worry, with the PNT deemed abrogated by the outbreak of war, there's potential for that yet! I have a pretty unreasonable Bismarck, I'll do 'er up in ship-spotter style!
Bismarck Class (1935)
Flag: National Socialist Germany
Type: Battleship
Ships in Class:
Bismarck
Tirpitz
Großer Kurfürst
Hindenburg
Dimensions: 842' x 124' x 29.9' 42 000 tons (claimed) 56 000 tons (actual) at standard load
Propulsion: Oil-fired boilers, turbo-electric drive plus diesel motors. 3 shafts. 160 000 total system horsepower. Wing shafts: Banks of 9-cyl MAN diesels producing 50 000 shp per shaft. Centre Shaft: 4x Wagner or LaMont boilers supplying steam to a Brown-Boveri turbine, powering an electric drive. 60 000 shp.
29.5 kn rated speed
Main Armament: 8 x 16"/L48 OR 8 x 16.5"/L45.54 guns in 4 two-gun turrets
Characteristics:
-Hull has a flush deck, normal, straight bow and large transom stern
-2 16" turrets arranged on centreline ends ahead of superstructure and funnels; 2 abaft superstructure and funnels
-Distributed, nearly vertical armour scheme
-Single purpose secondaries distributed on sides around superstructure.
Last edited:
If it can be absurd and fail spectacularly while making everybody wondering what the fuck was smoked in the design bureau, it’ll be fun. Heh heh.
Scroll up to see the insultingly overweight Cherman masterpiece with mixed steam-diesel propulsion and guns designed to be bored out and barrels re-sleeved. According to Springsharp, she's lightly armed for her bulk but a very stable gun platform. That's a lot of steel being worked into them, so for Raeder's sake, they had better work
Last edited:
Cue a Swedish submarine sinking her with all hands, because the bigger they are, the faster they sink.Scroll up to see the insultingly overweight Cherman masterpiece with mixed steam-diesel propulsion and guns designed to be bored out and barrels re-sleeved. According to Springsharp, she's lightly armed for her bulk but a very stable gun platform. That's a lot of steel being worked into them, so for Raeder's sake, they had better work
Cue a Swedish submarine sinking her with all hands, because the bigger they are, the faster they sink.
Hey now, the Norwegian campaign is over, so I can promise that one of them will do more than warm a fjord! I hope that design managed to hit the golden implausible-but-possible and distinctive mark!
It’s a pretty fun one, but when I meant weird, I meant the kind that just makes absolutely everyone, and not just the knowledgeable people, scratch their heads and/or claw their eyes out. The British Habbakkuk mobile iceberg is the kind of madness I discuss here. That, the Ise hybrid, the Surcouf, these designs where someone thought they had a bright idea and somehow managed to get the ear of powerful people.
- Status