The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by WaterproofPotatoes, Sep 15, 2018.

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What would you like to see next

Poll closed Sep 27, 2018.
  1. Prewar Departures

    7.3%
  2. Technology: Ships, planes, etc

    7.3%
  3. Japan, China & Philippines 1939-1940

    31.7%
  4. Italy 1939-1940

    17.1%
  5. Nazi Germany: Norway Fallout

    34.1%
  6. Other (please describe in reply)

    2.4%
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  1. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    I find Vargas to be a such a fascinating figure. He could well be considered the "Brazilian Bonaparte."
     
  2. Jaenera Targaryen Dragonrider

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2015
    A Brazilian Corps in China? Considering the heavy German/Nazi influence, why do I get the feeling KMT propaganda will make claims about 'Western Imperialist Devils loosing half-civilized jungle savages on the Middle Kingdom'?

    I'm rather interested in how the Allies might counter such propaganda, though I'm personally in favor of a certain WWI-era propaganda poster, showing the Kaiser holding a broken saber and forced to turn away from a multitude of spear-tipped flags stabbed his way. Just replace the Kaiser with Jiang, and the broken saber with a broken dao or jian, and it'd work very well, IMO. No need for words. The sheer symbolism of the Generalissimo bowed and broken beneath the flags of the Free World would be enough.
     
  3. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    "They've already sent the Hordes of Khan and the Australians, and now they need to send them too?" might be the reaction as well.

    ETA: That is a brilliant propaganda poster right there. By the authorial fiat invested within me, so shall it be canonized.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  4. Ogrebear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Location:
    UK
    Interesting devolpments- how is Brazil’s navy?

    Are we going to see them enter into the Atlantic battle?
     
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  5. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    The biggest problem with the Marinha do Brasil is that the ships, for the most part, are old and a hodgepodge of British and American equipment, with some of it poorly maintained due to doctrinal lapses or inadequate facilities.

    However, the Brazilians have a first rate merchant marine, which is extremely important for shipping materiel to Britain for transshipment to the Soviet Union, especially as the ice around Arkhangelsk breaks up.

    The MdB, full of motivated sailors now receiving American training, is being re-equipped with surplus and new built American ships, not only so they can protect convoys, but also to bring the fight to the enemy. The largest ships currently on order are escort carriers and heavy cruisers. There is even talk about purchasing a 14"-gunned Standard battleship to replace the ancient Minas Geraes class battleships, or to order an additional Jacksonville class 12 x 8" cruiser.

    More importantly, American grants and technical assistance are going into building repair facilities, drydocks and training schools to maintain the fleet. The best ship in the world is no good if you can't descale a boiler or change out a worn gun.

    The Brazilians also received 10 destroyers from the USN in late 1941 and an additional 20 across January-March 1942. They're fed up with having their merchant ships sunk by Nazi subs and are more than ready to man the depth charge rails to put a stop to them.

    It's also a barely-kept secret that Operation Tiger caused concern for the USN. In tough conditions, in the North Sea and Arctic Ocean, the Royal Navy was able to shrug off the loss of a battleship and rescue nearly an entire crew from the frigid waters. Then Coastal Command sunk a small battleship and her escort from the air, while the RN's surface forces cut off any potential escape routes the KM had, while a joint RN-IJN task force destroyed the enemy's fleet. At anchor. In a hostile port. With minimal aircraft losses and zero surface ship losses. In the process, the enemy's surface fleet lost all its capability to fight outside the North Sea, and the largest warship to date was sunk, the 58 000 ton (full load) Bismarck. The USN hasn't had any stunning victories like that- granted, they aren't being presented with a target-rich environment like OTL, but Britannia is making it absolutely clear that she rules the waves. Even the Tiger medal later awarded to participants seems to offer a challenge- the obverse displays a tiger rampant and is inscribed "Qui Tangit Frangitur" ("Who touches me, is broken").

    While it's not exactly like the Anglo-Japanese situation, the USN is glad to at least have a partner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  6. Ogrebear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Location:
    UK
    That victory over the Bismarck is the stuff Epic Movies are made off.
     
  7. Jaenera Targaryen Dragonrider

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2015
    I foresee a movie being made decades after the war, titled Murmansk, with a love triangle at its heart.

    For something more serious, I suggest watching the film Arctic Tiger, starring Sir Christopher Lee as Admiral Tovey, and Sou Yamamura as Admiral Yamamoto.
     
  8. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    It truly is!

    It's also a major psychological victory for Britain, and gives the weary public something to really believe in. The Hun broke one battleship, and it wasn't even the best one, and we rescued most of the crew (unlike the tragedy OTL where HMS Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy and symbol of British seapower was sunk in an instant with all hands but 3). In response, and with our allies helping us, because we aren't alone, we sank their entire fleet either at anchor or while they ran and didn't fight back.

    That is what the Hun get when they dispute Brittania's rule over the waves. They break one ship, they get their entire surface navy broken in response. Thomas Arne pretty well nailed it:

    "Still more majestic shalt thou rise!
    More dreadful with each foreign stroke!
    More dreadful, dreadful, dreadful, with each foreign stroke!
    As now the blast, the blast which tears the skies,
    Serves but to root Thy native Oak!

    Rule Brittania! Brittania rules the waves!
    Britons Never, Never, Never Shall Be Slaves!"



    I would love to see Arctic Tiger! Murmansk might be not quite as impressive, but once a Hong Kong action film interpretation comes along, it can be forgiven ;).

    I can also see Pete Postlethwaite as a hard-boiled RN rating or petty officer.
     
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  9. skarosianlifeform Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Post-war, in Latin America, Brazil will be the US main ally. Cuba is also, obviously, in the US sphere.
    Argentina is close to Britain, and Peru has strong cultural and economical ties with Japan, so both will likely join the Imperial Bloc.

    I wonder what will the other nations do. Will they choose Imperial or US bloc, or remain "in the middle" ?
    None will join the USSR for sure. Not even Mexico (despite ideological common points with Moscow), as the Mexicans aren't stupid enough to provoke their northern neighbor outright.
     
  10. doorcf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Location:
    are you a stalker?
    Peru's president in 1941 was incredibly pro-US (and the one before him was neutral somewhat pro-germany/italy) and so the next president (and the following dictator Odria). Whatever cultural ties between Peru and Japan exist are not that big to begin with and I personally doubt things will change much between Peru and Japan. Same in the economics by the 1940s the principal trading partner of Peru was the US. If anything Peru would be on the US faction unless something else happens.

    Speaking of South America, does the 1941 Peru-Ecuador War happens or it has been somehow butterflied away?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  11. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    It would have happened as it did OTL, with the Americans keeping a watchful eye, just to make sure that Ecuador was unable to pull off a decisive victory.
     
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  12. doorcf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2013
    Location:
    are you a stalker?
    I think you mean Peru, Ecuador lost the OTL war.
     
  13. Noblesse Oblige Reaper Squad Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2014
    Location:
    Deling City, Galbaldia
    No, I think he really meant Ecuador. Remember, Peru by 1941-42 was staunchly aligned to the U.S. Case in point, in OTL the President of Peru, Manuel Prado y Ugarteche after the breaking of relations and subsequent declaration of war with the Axis Powers in February 1942, was enthusiastically supportive of deporting Peruvians of Japanese descent to the United States, an act some historians equated to ethnic cleansing.

    By contrast, Ecuador preferred neutrality in foreign policy (at least I believe so, I don't know if it were the case.) In OTL, it didn't join the Second World War until February 1945, a full three years after Peru did.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  14. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Indeed I meant Peru. The US wanted the Peruvians, who were better positioned and had larger forces committed to the war to win. The USA was ready to put their thumb on the scale to get the result they wanted but it turned out to be unneccessary.
     
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  15. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Sorry, I meant to reply to this ages ago!

    That, I think, will be very interesting if/when it does happen... you might wind up with a real culture shock.

    The Imperial Japanese Army TTL has a lot of class division in it between the officers and the men, which American soldiers especially may find jarring.

    Then there's the whole issue of "do they see us as Japanese or American? Both? Neither?"
     
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  16. Luminous Headwing Consulting

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Location:
    The Piedmont of the Appalachians
    How do I keep missing these! looks good overall. Though if the UoC looks like it will, the US and buds may start frightening the Japanese and so. And that may come back to bite everyone, as the US will not only be on the lookout for Japanese aggression alone, at least in its eyes.

    Though, all of this talk about navies makes me wonder - what of the Bolivian Navy? :D
     
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  17. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    1x Andes class mountain range ;).

    Although, today OTL, Bolivia has some 5 000 personnel in their navy which was re-founded in 1966.
     
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  18. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    Also, I swear this was unintentional- I have a Dr. Sato working at Unit 731 who developed 3 formulae for boots.

    I wasn't aware of Blake and Mortimer until after I had already written that update!

    [​IMG]
     
  19. skarosianlifeform Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    One of my preferred albums. Along with the Secret of the Swordfish, which features a Tibetan Empire as an expy of Imperial Japan.
     
  20. WaterproofPotatoes #TeamMahan

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2018
    While I work on the Indonesia update (should be up within the next few days), here is a brief selection of some more OTL anti-Nazi propaganda that has proven popular throughout the Allied nations:

    This one, probably the least ambiguous, has made its way over to Japan as well:

    [​IMG]

    The theme of Nazis as culture-destroying brutes is as popular as ever:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Conservation is important too:

    [​IMG]
    "Fight like this! Put every shell into the (German) tank!"

    [​IMG]
    "The tractor in the field is like the tank in battle!"

    [​IMG]
     
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