The Holocaust went hand & glove with the invasion of the Soviet Union. What is keeping Hitler from fulfilling his life long goal of invading Russia? If the army high command is destroyed, and absorbed by the SS, and the Luftwaffe is purged the efficiency of the German Armed Force will be greatly diminished. Speer's rise was based on his being at Hitler's HQ when Reich Minister Dr Fritz Todt died in a plane crash. Without the Soviet War Todt probable wouldn't have died in that flight, though an accident is always possible. Speer would still have to be with Hitler on the day Todt dies, which isn't likely, but you could just say it's fated to happen. The rise of the SS State, and Heydrich's rule was a reasonable possibility.
The Second World War, 1939-1977: An Alternate History of WW2
- Thread starter Egbert
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The Holocaust went hand & glove with the invasion of the Soviet Union. What is keeping Hitler from fulfilling his life long goal of invading Russia? If the army high command is destroyed, and absorbed by the SS, and the Luftwaffe is purged the efficiency of the German Armed Force will be greatly diminished. Speer's rise was based on his being at Hitler's HQ when Reich Minister Dr Fritz Todt died in a plane crash. Without the Soviet War Todt probable wouldn't have died in that flight, though an accident is always possible. Speer would still have to be with Hitler on the day Todt dies, which isn't likely, but you could just say it's fated to happen. The rise of the SS State, and Heydrich's rule was a reasonable possibility.
These are the silliest weapons anyone could ever build. They serve no useful purpose. Their not usable as tanks, and conventional self propelled artillery is far more effective. All they can do is serve as targets. JFK can hardly have been said to have been dull, or anti business. It seems without Eisenhower Senator Robert Taft, or Governor Tomas Dewey would've become the next republican presidents. Is your President Warren Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren? Nice touch, but Manson as a successful rock star, or music writer would require another POD, requiring some musical talent. Still it's a nice thought that the Amazingly beautiful Sharon Tate would get to live out her life, along with the rest of the Manson victims.
Just saying. Having recently joined the Army and being a driver in an M1A2 Abrams, I used to get nervous hitting anything above 35 in an 70 ton plus steel death machine. Hitting 42 while going down a hill is serious fun though, Something wayyyyyyy heavier than that being theoretically able to hit 30 miles per hour would make any driver shit bricks. You can easily throw track on an Abrams taking too tight of a turn at 30 miles per hour. I don't even want to know how long it would take to change track on a behemoth tank.
Super heavy tanks are all fun and all. And I'm sure others will articulate the argument, but they are a mechanical and resource nightmare. Why make one big juicy pricy target for the enemy air force when all that steel could be used to produce a company worth of tanks and several batteries of AA guns that are for more useful in the long run.
Super heavy tanks are all fun and all. And I'm sure others will articulate the argument, but they are a mechanical and resource nightmare. Why make one big juicy pricy target for the enemy air force when all that steel could be used to produce a company worth of tanks and several batteries of AA guns that are for more useful in the long run.
Damn the Nazis killed 25m+ alone in Europe. Hate to be an exiled Pole because I imagine there almost nothing left of old Poland.
Were there be any original members of the Free Polish left besides their descendants and foreign Poles likely returning to the homeland?
Were there be any original members of the Free Polish left besides their descendants and foreign Poles likely returning to the homeland?
Yeah, that update wasn't very good, I admit it. And Sealion is of course impossible. The war doesn't restart because the Germans can concentrate their entire strength in the West since the Soviets are still in the Axis. I freely admit that update was kind of handwavey.
Even without an invasion Sweden and Norway exported ore extensively, even as late as 1944 OTL. And Wilkie didn't become president. Did you read the updates? FDR was followed by James Farley, not Wendell Wilkie. Also, restarting the war wasn't just a question of isolationism. A land invasion during the 50s would have had a horrific cost in men.
Thanks for your feedback.
What you said about the SS is entirely true. The Soviet Union IOTL only lost so much territory because they were surprised, and once the officer corps has been rebuilt it was only a question of producing the manpower and machinery necessary. Since Operation Pike pushes the USSR closer to Axis, but neither trust each other, and by the late 50s there's something of a three-sided arms buildup. Invading the Soviet Union by then would require fully concentrating their military strength, which the Reich fears the Allies will exploit. Speer would have attempted to forge a lasting peace, which made him extremely unpopular with the public, while Heydrich was the archetypal "Aryan" and ran the SS, which people liked. That combined with his sheer ruthlessness made him the most likely candidate in my mind.
Those tanks are only used for breaking through static defenses and medium-distance bombardent, sometimes atomic. In actual tank combat they would fare horrendously. The M60, which ITTL resembles the MBT-70 more than the Patton, is the main battle tank. Er, it's not JFK. It's Joe Kennedy Sr. That passage is written from the perspective of a *libertarian, a movement arising earlier in part due to the neverending New Deal/war economy. Yep, it's Earl Warren. Butterflies lead to Manson getting into music, but hey, I never said he was talented.
Good point, 30 is probably pushing it. I feel like 23-25 for absolute top speed is more realistic. The superheavy is used pretty sparingly for the reasons you listed, mostly brought out for breaking static defenses, like I said above.
Not many that got out in the 30s. Mostly Polish-Americans and the children of the original Free Poles. A lot of minorities that escaped Germany will have their own units, for example Romani, German Catholics, and Jews.
Thanks for all the feedback.
So I guess that a reconstituted Poland would hate all of its neighbors but Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania?
The Allies won't allow an openly racist state, but most Poles won't like anyone not Polish, really.
Thanks for your feedback.
With Britain out of the war in late 1940 why didn't Hitler attack Russia in 1941? What else do the German have going on? Invading Russia was the obsession of Hitler's life. Maintaining a peacetime alliance with the Soviet Union is a historical absurdity. If the Germans didn't invade Norway then the British are occupying it, and Swedish iron ore would be cut off. The Germans would be forced into a belated counter invasion of Scandinavia. At that point their only viable invasion route would be though Southern Sweden, so the Swedes would have to join the Allies. The Norwegian Army was too small to put up heavy resistance, but the Swedes could. British & French air, and ground units would move into Northern Sweden to support the Swedes.
A much bigger then the OTL Scandinavian Campaign would divert German Forces from the Western Front, and probable delay the invasion of the West till the completion of the operation. The Germans would probably win the campaign, but they would have to commit far larger ground, and air forces then they did in the OTL, and have to assign about 10 divisions to occupy Sweden, which they didn't have to do historically. The disruption in iron ore, and other trade with Sweden would reduce German Steel, and general industrial production for at least a year. It would be problematic if iron ore shipments would ever reach pre invasion levels, after retreating troops flooded the mines, by destroying pumping equipment.
Not invading Norway would have had far reaching economic, and military implications for the larger German War Strategy.
A much bigger then the OTL Scandinavian Campaign would divert German Forces from the Western Front, and probable delay the invasion of the West till the completion of the operation. The Germans would probably win the campaign, but they would have to commit far larger ground, and air forces then they did in the OTL, and have to assign about 10 divisions to occupy Sweden, which they didn't have to do historically. The disruption in iron ore, and other trade with Sweden would reduce German Steel, and general industrial production for at least a year. It would be problematic if iron ore shipments would ever reach pre invasion levels, after retreating troops flooded the mines, by destroying pumping equipment.
Not invading Norway would have had far reaching economic, and military implications for the larger German War Strategy.
Point blank: have you read my responses? Stalin received no less than 87 warnings of a German invasion throughout 40-41 [source] and his paranoia is both justified and kicked into overdrive by the Allied bombing of Baku oil fields. Even a few simple changes could have made the drive to Moscow exponentially more costly. Redistributing troops away from the border, a costly failure in OTL, and moving them to better-supplied defensive lines would be a massive improvement, and doable within weeks. German losses could have been increased by hundreds of thousands if these simple changes were made. Hitler was deranged and the closest thing to pure evil, but short of drinking lead paint, would not invade once these improvements were made and his staff informed it.
OTOH, my knowledge on Scandinavia in the early war period is pretty limited. I didn't take into consideration the effects of no Norwegian invasion, and that is placed squarely on me.
Seriously, I really appreciate all your feedback.
I have to say this is the first response I've read with an explanation for Hitler not attacking the Soviets. Pulling back to better positions wouldn't dissuade the Germans from invading. At the time of Barbarossa the Red Army had 20,000 tanks, and 12,000 aircraft, which was more tanks, and as many aircraft as the rest of the world combined, and the Germans thought they would be able to destroy them in 3 months. The invasion wasn't predicated on the Red Army being poorly deployed. The Germans had little trouble smashing though Soviet Defense lines, and conducting massive encirclement operations.
What eventually defeated them was the tenacity of the Russian Soldier. Even when encircled, and out of supply, with a complete breakdown of command, and control each isolated group had to be wiped out by the follow up infantry, moving on foot in the wake of the Panzer Groups. Yes on the first day of the war the Luftwaffe destroyed 1,200 aircraft mostly on the ground, but in the following days they shot down thousands more. With the campaign extended longer then expected, and after underestimating Soviet Manpower the Germans pushed on hoping that one more mass encirclement would brake the moral of the Red Army, or exhaust their manpower, and by the beginning of December they came close.
With almost all their tanks, and aircraft destroyed, and having lost over 5,000,000 men the Red Army was still standing, when the Germans finally reached their limit. After suffering 800,000 casualties, losing more then half their tanks, and aircraft, and with winter setting in their offensive ground to a halt, and the Red Army could finally counter attack.
From Hitler down to the lowest Soldat the Russian Army was held in low esteem. Even when war experience showed the courage, and toughness of the Russian Soldier, at all levels the Germans had confidence they could out think, out maneuver, and outfight the Russians, and most of the time they did. By 1944 the odds became just too great, and Hitler's mistakes only compounded the situation. So having good defensive positions in 1941 would be no deterrent for the Heer, or the Luftwaffe. They were fully confident they would make short work of the Red Army, and Air Force.
You also cannot overestimate the importance in Hitler's mind of the War against the Jews, and the race war for living space in the East. Everything else was subordinated to those ends. Barbarossa was the fulfillment of both, and it was to be the culminating event of Hitler's life, and German History. It was a task Hitler said was so important he couldn't leave it to his successors, but had to be completed in his lifetime. Hitler was also convinced he wouldn't live a long life, so he always felt he needed to force events. Sharing the world with the Subhuman Russian/Jewish Bolsheviks was unthinkable to Hitler's hate twisted mind.
They would hate the Slovaks, they took back territory that had been in dispute since 1918. In 1938 the Poles had attacked the Slovaks, and took a slice of land they had lost in 1918. In 1939 the Slovaks took it back. In 1945 the Poles took it back again. That's the sad history of the world.
The tail of the B-36 in the photo indicates a bombload Truman didn't authorize. Curtis LeMay gone rogue?Hopefully better research than the last update (
View attachment 529286
American bomber over Tokyo, c. 1946.
From "The Second World War: 1939-1977", by Michael Fairfield
"Shorn of any Eastern allies, the United States and Britain were at odds. Britain wanted to maintain a “Europe First” strategy, while the United States looked increasingly toward the Axis nation in the Pacific: Japan. The attack on Pearl Harbor, and subsequent invasions of the Philippines, Guam, and Wake Island, had been major blows to US power projection in the region. Throughout 1942 and 1943, as the “white peace” reigned in Europe, the United States’ naval power was reconsolidated, and carrier raids were consistently carried out against Japanese holdings. On a darker note, anti-Japanese sentiment surged at home, culminating in the March 1942 internment of 120,000 Japanese-Americans.
Between 1944 and 1945 the primary three US holdings in the South Pacific, the Philippines, Guam, and Wake Island, would be liberated. The Marianas, Okinawa, and Saipan would be the site of savage fighting, but with naval superiority firmly belonging to the United States, the pendulum swung in favor of the Allies. Royal Navy forces decisively liberated the East Indies, Burma, and Malaya. The Japanese Empire would slowly be bottled into the Home Islands.
One of the most controversial decisions of the Pacific Campaign, possibly the entire war, was the decision not to use the atomic bomb in Japan. Recent studies have suggested that their use could have hastened Japanese surrender by as much as a year. President Truman was called to use it no less than nine times, and refused in every instance. Ultimately, however, the fear that the lagging Soviet and German missile efforts would be transformed into true nuclear programs was an overriding one. But even had they been used, the occupation of Japan would have been no less brutal.
The mining of the Yellow Sea and Sea of Japan isolated the nation from its Soviet ally, and near-continuous firebombing from American B-29, later B-36, fleets shattered their industrial capacity. The effectiveness of the submarine blockade was near-total. Red Navy ships attempting to provide relief were sunk without warning, making those sailors the first forgotten casualties between the two powers. The Unconditional Surrender issued on October 24, 1946, and Douglas Macarthur was appointed military governor. Nearly 4 million civilian lives and the existence of Japan as an industrial nation had been the price."
The thing is, if Barbarossa still happens on the same time frame, it means that WW2 would actually end earlier. Better preparation most likely butterflies some of those huge encircling maneuvers, and I find it unlikely the Heer would have gotten anywhere near Moscow, maybe not even Stalingrad. Industrial production and manpower were always in favor of the Soviets, and that compounded with the tenacity you mentioned, would mean an earlier push into Western Europe. Depending on whether the WAllies still open the Western Front, the Soviets might reach Berlin weeks or months earlier. So Hitler, in a moment of clarity, realizing how many pure Aryan Germans would be lost to the degenerate Bolsheviks, has to defer on his invasion. It might be implausible, even ASB, but without it, there's no story.
Lol, didn't realize that. Space bat image interference??
Thanks for all the feedback.
Cosmic Bombs and the Security State
Comments are greatly appreciated.
Anti-nuclear protestors outside the White House, c. 1969.
From "The Second World War: 1939-1977", by Michael Fairfield
"The response among the Allied nations to the May 10 raids was sudden and furious. A number of generals and planners argued for a disproportionate retaliation, nuclear or conventional. However, a strategic analysis of Fortress Europe would soon prove the latter option essentially impossible. What was indisputable was that a massive response was necessary. Arguments over what was to constitute this response reached levels of heatedness escalating into violence. On May 13, President Robert F. Kennedy, Prime Minister Hugh Gaitskell, and Leader of Free France Charles de Gaulle met at the Campobello Conference to issue a demand for surrender. Though none of the participating governments have admitted it, it is widely suspected that the Conference was really an agreement to authorize the use of nuclear weapons. Operation Khan would go on to become one of the most brutal, pointless retributions in human history.
On May 15, a force of 16 American F-100 Warchief jets was launched from USAF/RAF Welford. Each of these jets carried a 5.4 megaton hydrogen bomb. A metallic Pandora's Box of cosmic destruction, searing through the sound barrier. These bombs were destined for Munich, Stuttgart, Dresden, Dortmund, Cologne. The beating hearts of poisoned Europe. Over the course of ten hours Europe was cleansed, expunged with thermonuclear fire. The baptism of Germany into her final war had begun."
From "Shall Not Be Infringed", by Maureen F. Campbell
"One wouldn't be wrong to state that the American security state was born on May 15, 1969. Or, rather, on the day after. Thousands of protestors convened in major cities, assembled in protest over the brutality in continental Europe. They were, of course, calling for peace. If there truly were any Nazi sympathizers or Soviet subversives among the crowds, we may never know. But the vast majority had assembled to keep their sons or selves on American soil, so to speak.
The response was swift and brutal.
National Guard and police were deployed to block the protests by any means necessary. By sundown, 49 were dead and almost 500 injured. Rifles, shotguns, gas, batons. The American security apparatus was for the first time levied on its own citizens."
Anti-nuclear protestors outside the White House, c. 1969.
From "The Second World War: 1939-1977", by Michael Fairfield
"The response among the Allied nations to the May 10 raids was sudden and furious. A number of generals and planners argued for a disproportionate retaliation, nuclear or conventional. However, a strategic analysis of Fortress Europe would soon prove the latter option essentially impossible. What was indisputable was that a massive response was necessary. Arguments over what was to constitute this response reached levels of heatedness escalating into violence. On May 13, President Robert F. Kennedy, Prime Minister Hugh Gaitskell, and Leader of Free France Charles de Gaulle met at the Campobello Conference to issue a demand for surrender. Though none of the participating governments have admitted it, it is widely suspected that the Conference was really an agreement to authorize the use of nuclear weapons. Operation Khan would go on to become one of the most brutal, pointless retributions in human history.
On May 15, a force of 16 American F-100 Warchief jets was launched from USAF/RAF Welford. Each of these jets carried a 5.4 megaton hydrogen bomb. A metallic Pandora's Box of cosmic destruction, searing through the sound barrier. These bombs were destined for Munich, Stuttgart, Dresden, Dortmund, Cologne. The beating hearts of poisoned Europe. Over the course of ten hours Europe was cleansed, expunged with thermonuclear fire. The baptism of Germany into her final war had begun."
From "Shall Not Be Infringed", by Maureen F. Campbell
"One wouldn't be wrong to state that the American security state was born on May 15, 1969. Or, rather, on the day after. Thousands of protestors convened in major cities, assembled in protest over the brutality in continental Europe. They were, of course, calling for peace. If there truly were any Nazi sympathizers or Soviet subversives among the crowds, we may never know. But the vast majority had assembled to keep their sons or selves on American soil, so to speak.
The response was swift and brutal.
National Guard and police were deployed to block the protests by any means necessary. By sundown, 49 were dead and almost 500 injured. Rifles, shotguns, gas, batons. The American security apparatus was for the first time levied on its own citizens."
Decades long 'modern' war, usually with technological/social regression was a sci-fi trope right back to The Shape of Things to Come.
Funny, Shape of Things to Come was one of my inspirations. That and A World of Laughter, A World of Tears for American politics.
Thanks for your feedback!
Wow, an anti-war movement & counterculture still in the 1960s but this time opposed to Nazi Germany & occupied Europe.
I wonder how this will differ from OTL's Vietnam war era.
Any chance of Jane Fonda becoming "Berlin Jane" ITTL?
I wonder how this will differ from OTL's Vietnam war era.
Any chance of Jane Fonda becoming "Berlin Jane" ITTL?
Heh, it's possible. According to Wiki her acting career started from a chance meeting, and she was a model before that, so chances are she stuck with that.
Thanks for the feedback!
Chemikalien über Europa
Comments are greatly appreciated.
Allied units during the Breakout at Marigny, c. 1970.
From "The Second World War: 1939-1977", by Michael Fairfield
"With their economy in shambles, the Third Reich could offer little but protest when the Allies initiated their starvation blockade. Using the air campaign against Japan as a model, every German city with a population over 100,000 was conventional and firebombed, with low-yield (200 to 600 ton) nuclear warheads used to clear garrisoned troop concentrations. Warsaw, which had been ethnically cleansed and then colonized by ethnic Germans, was subjected to especially heavy bombardment. Of note is the care taken to preserve the Autobahn and the German transportation system, which were seen as essential to an eventual campaign in Europe.
Allied planners expected a surrender to be issued within a year, perhaps six months. The failure of the blockade to produce a capitulation proved these expectations wrong. Though burnt and bloodied, Nazi Germany would fight on. Even the August 17 nuclear strike on East Paris in SS Burgundy failed to change the opinions of the SS leadership. Thus, the Allies saw invasion to be the only option short of annihilation. The X-Day landings would not be fully drawn up for another several months, and so, the "putting of screws" to Nazi Germany continued. North and Central German agricultural land was doused heavily with Agent Green, a defoliant that led to birth defects and the disposal of hundreds of thousands of affected children. Aldrin, dieldrin, and Nemagon were also used to sterilize large portions of the male population as part of long-term plan to flatten birth rates. Attempts were reportedly made to introduce blight disease in wheat and rye producing regions, plans that would be recycled during the Morgenthau-era depopulation programs.
The vast famines of this period tolled the German population. Farmers and their families fleeing firestorms and famines were gunned down or even forced off of bridges at gunpoint. The utter savagery of SS troops toward their countrymen was astonishing to Allied intelligence, who by that point were flying regular surveillance missions. It was at this point that the American and British populace learned of the Holocaust.
The reaction was ferocious. American and British Jews enlisted en masse, indeed recruitment surged as much as 40% in some areas. American Jewish leaders called for an immediate entry into Europe. The American public, already thoroughly anti-Nazi, was enraged and inspired. Realizing the ferocity with which persecuted groups would fight, the Allies authorized the creation of Jewish, Polish, Romani, and Homosexual Infantry Brigade Groups. All of these units would go on to become some of the most decorated in US military history."
The header image is by Elite3D, concept art for Call of Duty: WW2.
Allied units during the Breakout at Marigny, c. 1970.
From "The Second World War: 1939-1977", by Michael Fairfield
"With their economy in shambles, the Third Reich could offer little but protest when the Allies initiated their starvation blockade. Using the air campaign against Japan as a model, every German city with a population over 100,000 was conventional and firebombed, with low-yield (200 to 600 ton) nuclear warheads used to clear garrisoned troop concentrations. Warsaw, which had been ethnically cleansed and then colonized by ethnic Germans, was subjected to especially heavy bombardment. Of note is the care taken to preserve the Autobahn and the German transportation system, which were seen as essential to an eventual campaign in Europe.
Allied planners expected a surrender to be issued within a year, perhaps six months. The failure of the blockade to produce a capitulation proved these expectations wrong. Though burnt and bloodied, Nazi Germany would fight on. Even the August 17 nuclear strike on East Paris in SS Burgundy failed to change the opinions of the SS leadership. Thus, the Allies saw invasion to be the only option short of annihilation. The X-Day landings would not be fully drawn up for another several months, and so, the "putting of screws" to Nazi Germany continued. North and Central German agricultural land was doused heavily with Agent Green, a defoliant that led to birth defects and the disposal of hundreds of thousands of affected children. Aldrin, dieldrin, and Nemagon were also used to sterilize large portions of the male population as part of long-term plan to flatten birth rates. Attempts were reportedly made to introduce blight disease in wheat and rye producing regions, plans that would be recycled during the Morgenthau-era depopulation programs.
The vast famines of this period tolled the German population. Farmers and their families fleeing firestorms and famines were gunned down or even forced off of bridges at gunpoint. The utter savagery of SS troops toward their countrymen was astonishing to Allied intelligence, who by that point were flying regular surveillance missions. It was at this point that the American and British populace learned of the Holocaust.
The reaction was ferocious. American and British Jews enlisted en masse, indeed recruitment surged as much as 40% in some areas. American Jewish leaders called for an immediate entry into Europe. The American public, already thoroughly anti-Nazi, was enraged and inspired. Realizing the ferocity with which persecuted groups would fight, the Allies authorized the creation of Jewish, Polish, Romani, and Homosexual Infantry Brigade Groups. All of these units would go on to become some of the most decorated in US military history."
The header image is by Elite3D, concept art for Call of Duty: WW2.
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