Thank you my friend! Next update is coming tomorrow:
The second siege of Massalia
The rise of the Sacred Segos. A Gaul-Hellenistic era ATL.
Thank you my friend! Next update is coming tomorrow:
The second siege of Massalia
I cant tell if Xenon will win the war but for sure we are going to see a different Gaul in the future.This is what this ATL is all about after all. As for the rest of the world i have some funky ideas
Chapter 24. The second siege of Massalia.
Chapter 24. The second siege of Massalia
225 BC. Part four.
The second siege of Massalia.
Location
Massalia, the largest and most important Greek city-state of west Med, was located on the Mediterranean coast and close to the Rhone river. The city located on three hills and overlooking the harbour, was the second most important port in west Med after Carthage.
Background
Xenon’s army had 50,000 troops; he managed to cross the Rhone river and reach Massalia against minor opposition by the Avatici tribe.
At the time of the siege, the city held approximately 30,000 people, though a large number of women and children had been evacuated to various greek and roman colonies in the east. The Romans also promised to send a fleet to their allies aid.
The Gauls arrived before the city in early May, with the sacred segos vanguard preceding the main army. The Massaliots, under the command of strategos Isidoros, did not meet them in the field, but instead they stayed behind the city's walls. The Volcae army was capable of wholly surrounding Massalia. They had brought no siege engines, however. The Greeks too had failed in their preparations: the city was poorly stocked with food and the surrounding countryside was now in the hands of the Gauls.
The siege
As Xenon did not have access to a navy, until Hamilcar’s aid fleet arrival, he resolved to try and take the city diplomatically. Xenon sent two emissaries to the besieged. The first to approach the wall was Leontios, a banished Massaliot who had fled to the Xenon’s court in Tolosa, and now accompanied the Volcae in hopes of recovering his status and lands. When he approached the garrison, he urged them to surrender and offered them a safe-conduct, while proclaiming the restoration of his holdings. The Greeks, however, indignantly refused to hear him and hurled abuses at him.
After Leontios failure, Xenon sent another local, Paramonos, to parley with the garrison, bringing a few Greek captives along with him to intimidate them. Xenon offered to take up the Greek garrison into his own army, doubling their salary, but this proposal too was rejected with disdain by the Greek negotiator, Meliton(chosen because he knew Paramonos), with the words "How can the Greeks be with the Volcae who are Barbarians?” His reply infuriated Xenon and ended the diplomatic efforts. Xenon then ordered his men to make a charge at the city walls.The determined Sacred Segos assault on the gate, with five of them managing to climb the wall before being repelled. The Gaul warlord of Veltani who with his companions assaulted another breach in the wall,which led into a house, was killed by the house owner and his family. Finally, after few hours of stubborn defence, the Massaliots managed to repel the attack. Its was a total failure for the Gauls who lost more than 400 man in just a few hours.
After this set back, Xenon was convinced that he would not be able to take Massalia without a navy. Fortunately for him the aid fleet of Hamilcar arrived a few days later. With his new fleet, Xenon’s forces sailed on Massalia and quickly blockaded the port with their superior numbers. The Massaliots launched a counter-attack with their fleet, but they where easily defeated by the superior Carthaginian fleet. Meanwhile Xenon son was able to storm Agathe.
Conclusion of the siege
Xenon then began to subdue the whole region around Massalia. In the third month of the siege(July), famine was hitting Massalia hard and eventually, the starving soldiers, realising that no help is coming, called for a surrender or an agreement on a ransom on the best terms they could. Upon hearing the news some elders committed suicide with their whole families after setting the city on fire. During the chaos that followed Xenon troops stormed the city walls. Once his troops forced their way into the city, they easily overtook the garrison, and quickly captured the city.
Those citizens who took shelter in the temple of Artemis(700) were pardoned by Xenon. According to Vlatucnos 2,000 fighting men were killed within the city. The others, some 15,000 people, were sold into slavery(except couple of hundreds) . The severity of reprisals reflected the length of the siege and Xenon’s thirst for revenge. With half of the city destroyed by the fire, Xenon made a plan for reconstructing it, especially the fortifications and the harbour. He also invited Gaul settlers to re populate the town. The land surrounding Massalia was also shared between Xenon’s troops.
Carthage
Hamilcar attacked and stormed Emporion and Rhoda. Hannibal's brother-in-law Hasdrubal the Fair then suggested an overland journey to Italy but Hamilcar decided to wait for the rest of his fleet to return from the siege of Massalia before further action. Upon the fleet arrival in late July,he sailed with the bulk of his army to Sardinia.The Carthaginian landing at Sardinia was virtually unopposed. The army of Hamilcar disembarked near Oblia and shortly after neutralised the Roman garrison.
Meanwhile, the Carthaginian mercenary army from Africa landed in Sicily and began ravaging the countryside. This army was composed of 50,000 infantry, 9,000 cavalry, and 70 elephants.
In August, they besieged Lilybaeum. The garrison of Lilybaeum ,meanwhile, managed to call for reinforcements. A Roman relief force, commanded by the consul suffectus* Torquatus, landed shortly after. After a few skirmishes, both sides saw an open battle as preferable to their current situation.
The Greek historian Timocreon says that for one month, the two enemies were stationed close together outside the city without any direct conflict. However, the roman garrison in the city, was sending a constant flow of messages and fire-signals stressing the city’s food shortages which caused Torquatus to fight. The Carthaginians, who were also close to starvation, accepted the fight. After a long struggle, the Romans won the battle; the Carthaginians lost 4,000 infantry and 400 cavalry killed, as well as 5,000 prisoners and seven elephants killed and 28 disabled. Throughout the whole siege, the Romans lost 6,000 infantry and 640 cavalry of their 45,000–50,000 troops. The high Roman losses and the escape of the Carthaginian army meant that no triumph was awarded for the consul suffectus.
* When a consul died, another would be elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve the remainder of the term as consul suffectus (suffect consul).(A consul elected to start the year - called a consul ordinarius (ordinary consul) - held more prestige than a suffect consul, partly because the year would be named for ordinary consuls )
225 BC. Part four.
The second siege of Massalia.
Location
Massalia, the largest and most important Greek city-state of west Med, was located on the Mediterranean coast and close to the Rhone river. The city located on three hills and overlooking the harbour, was the second most important port in west Med after Carthage.
Background
Xenon’s army had 50,000 troops; he managed to cross the Rhone river and reach Massalia against minor opposition by the Avatici tribe.
At the time of the siege, the city held approximately 30,000 people, though a large number of women and children had been evacuated to various greek and roman colonies in the east. The Romans also promised to send a fleet to their allies aid.
The Gauls arrived before the city in early May, with the sacred segos vanguard preceding the main army. The Massaliots, under the command of strategos Isidoros, did not meet them in the field, but instead they stayed behind the city's walls. The Volcae army was capable of wholly surrounding Massalia. They had brought no siege engines, however. The Greeks too had failed in their preparations: the city was poorly stocked with food and the surrounding countryside was now in the hands of the Gauls.
The siege
As Xenon did not have access to a navy, until Hamilcar’s aid fleet arrival, he resolved to try and take the city diplomatically. Xenon sent two emissaries to the besieged. The first to approach the wall was Leontios, a banished Massaliot who had fled to the Xenon’s court in Tolosa, and now accompanied the Volcae in hopes of recovering his status and lands. When he approached the garrison, he urged them to surrender and offered them a safe-conduct, while proclaiming the restoration of his holdings. The Greeks, however, indignantly refused to hear him and hurled abuses at him.
After Leontios failure, Xenon sent another local, Paramonos, to parley with the garrison, bringing a few Greek captives along with him to intimidate them. Xenon offered to take up the Greek garrison into his own army, doubling their salary, but this proposal too was rejected with disdain by the Greek negotiator, Meliton(chosen because he knew Paramonos), with the words "How can the Greeks be with the Volcae who are Barbarians?” His reply infuriated Xenon and ended the diplomatic efforts. Xenon then ordered his men to make a charge at the city walls.The determined Sacred Segos assault on the gate, with five of them managing to climb the wall before being repelled. The Gaul warlord of Veltani who with his companions assaulted another breach in the wall,which led into a house, was killed by the house owner and his family. Finally, after few hours of stubborn defence, the Massaliots managed to repel the attack. Its was a total failure for the Gauls who lost more than 400 man in just a few hours.
After this set back, Xenon was convinced that he would not be able to take Massalia without a navy. Fortunately for him the aid fleet of Hamilcar arrived a few days later. With his new fleet, Xenon’s forces sailed on Massalia and quickly blockaded the port with their superior numbers. The Massaliots launched a counter-attack with their fleet, but they where easily defeated by the superior Carthaginian fleet. Meanwhile Xenon son was able to storm Agathe.
Conclusion of the siege
Xenon then began to subdue the whole region around Massalia. In the third month of the siege(July), famine was hitting Massalia hard and eventually, the starving soldiers, realising that no help is coming, called for a surrender or an agreement on a ransom on the best terms they could. Upon hearing the news some elders committed suicide with their whole families after setting the city on fire. During the chaos that followed Xenon troops stormed the city walls. Once his troops forced their way into the city, they easily overtook the garrison, and quickly captured the city.
Those citizens who took shelter in the temple of Artemis(700) were pardoned by Xenon. According to Vlatucnos 2,000 fighting men were killed within the city. The others, some 15,000 people, were sold into slavery(except couple of hundreds) . The severity of reprisals reflected the length of the siege and Xenon’s thirst for revenge. With half of the city destroyed by the fire, Xenon made a plan for reconstructing it, especially the fortifications and the harbour. He also invited Gaul settlers to re populate the town. The land surrounding Massalia was also shared between Xenon’s troops.
Carthage
Hamilcar attacked and stormed Emporion and Rhoda. Hannibal's brother-in-law Hasdrubal the Fair then suggested an overland journey to Italy but Hamilcar decided to wait for the rest of his fleet to return from the siege of Massalia before further action. Upon the fleet arrival in late July,he sailed with the bulk of his army to Sardinia.The Carthaginian landing at Sardinia was virtually unopposed. The army of Hamilcar disembarked near Oblia and shortly after neutralised the Roman garrison.
Meanwhile, the Carthaginian mercenary army from Africa landed in Sicily and began ravaging the countryside. This army was composed of 50,000 infantry, 9,000 cavalry, and 70 elephants.
In August, they besieged Lilybaeum. The garrison of Lilybaeum ,meanwhile, managed to call for reinforcements. A Roman relief force, commanded by the consul suffectus* Torquatus, landed shortly after. After a few skirmishes, both sides saw an open battle as preferable to their current situation.
The Greek historian Timocreon says that for one month, the two enemies were stationed close together outside the city without any direct conflict. However, the roman garrison in the city, was sending a constant flow of messages and fire-signals stressing the city’s food shortages which caused Torquatus to fight. The Carthaginians, who were also close to starvation, accepted the fight. After a long struggle, the Romans won the battle; the Carthaginians lost 4,000 infantry and 400 cavalry killed, as well as 5,000 prisoners and seven elephants killed and 28 disabled. Throughout the whole siege, the Romans lost 6,000 infantry and 640 cavalry of their 45,000–50,000 troops. The high Roman losses and the escape of the Carthaginian army meant that no triumph was awarded for the consul suffectus.
* When a consul died, another would be elected by the Comitia Centuriata to serve the remainder of the term as consul suffectus (suffect consul).(A consul elected to start the year - called a consul ordinarius (ordinary consul) - held more prestige than a suffect consul, partly because the year would be named for ordinary consuls )
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This war will probably be the last major one for Xenon. He is 55 by now...
Chapter 25. Xenon katabasis
Chapter 25. Xenon katabasis
225 BC. Part five.
While Rome had been busy in Italy and Sicily and thus leaving her allies in Massalia to their fate at the hands of the Volcae, Xenon was busy preparing his troops for a descent in Italy. He had intelligence from Po valley Gauls that one consular army was campaigning in Po valley. He had also intelligence from Hamilcar about his plans to move against Rome and that the other consular army was in Sicily.
He needed to reach the Alps quickly in order to beat the onset of winter. He knew that if he waited until springtime on the far side of the mountains, the Romans would have the time to secure Po valley under their total control and also he would miss the opportunity to join forces with Hamilcar.
Preparations
During the siege of Massalia Xenon had also sent a number of druids/embassies to the Gallic tribes in both sides of the Alps. These embassies brought with them troops, food and guides to Xenon.This mission had also the specific aim of establishing a safe place for Xenon to debouch from the Alps into the Po valley. Xenon did not know a great deal about the Alps, but he knew enough to know that it was going to be a difficult march. He had had some scouts give him reports concerning this mountain chain, and he received reports of the difficulties to be encountered. He did not desire to cross this rugged mountain chain and to descend into the Po valley with exhausted troops only to have to fight a battle.
Xenon upon hearing the reports knew enough about the Alps to know in particular that the descent was steeper than the ascent into the Alps. This was one of the reasons he wanted to have allies into whose territory he could march. (The Alps rose as a result of the pressure of the African plate as it moved north against the stable Eurasian landmass; the northward direction of this movement made the Italian side of the Alps considerably steeper). The Insubres and Taurini, whose tribal territory immediately abutted the Alps, and especially the hard pressed by the Romans Boii(1), farther down the Po, were particularly pleased with Xenon’s invasion.
So after receiving news of the route and messages from the Celtic tribes that resided around the Alps, the Volcae set out in late August. Xenon departed with 40,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry. He left his son back in control of the country with 10,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry. From Massalia up to where Rhone river meets Isere river the campaign was conducted with speed in order to take as little time as possible. Near Isere Omvix,the young tribal chief of the Helvii, joined, with enthusiasm, Xenon along with 4000 of his warriors.
Ascent of the Alps
Xenon marched in the direction of Mt. Du Chat towards the village of Aquste and from there to Chevelu, to the pass by Mt. Du Chat. The descent from this pass was steep, and the Gauls were having a hard time marching down this side of the pass, especially the baggage animals(few of them were lost). After the steep pass, the baggage was held together in good order and the army followed the road down to the plain that begins roughly at modern Bourget. This plain was 4–6 miles wide at most places. Xenon marched his army to modern Chambery a city of the Allobroges tribe who welcomed them with gifts and cattle for the troops. In addition, more than 1000 of their warriors joined them. This was a pleasant surprise for Xenon, considering that a small portion of their supplies had been lost when some pack animals had fallen over the pass of Mt. Du Chat. He encamped there for 2 days to give his men some time to rest and to collect further rations.
The Gauls continued their march and at modern Albertville they encountered the Centrones tribe, who brought gifts and supplies. In addition, they brought hostages in order to convince Xenon of their commitment to his cause. Then the Centrones guided his army for two days. As they marched through the Little St Bernard Pass near the village of Séez, the pass narrowed again.The army then rested near a large white rock, for two days. It was the end of September.
Descent to Italy
With the Italian side of the Alps much steeper; quite few men lost their footing down this side of the Alps and died. At an early point in their descent, the army came upon a section of the path that had been blocked by a landslide. This section of the path was broken for about 500 meters. Xenon attempted to detour, by marching through a place where there was snow – the Alps are so high at this point that the snow from previous years does not even melt. They made their way through, but at the cost of a small portion of the baggage animals that were left behind.
It took the army five days more days to march from this place into the plains of the Po valley. Xenon then ordered his men to encamp, at a point which is near Sagusia(modern Susa).From there Xenon marched to Taurasia,the Taurini tribe chief town and then to Cremona where he joined forces with the remaining Gaul forces in Po valley. The forces under Xenon command was now 80000 and 11000 cavalry. It was late October by now so Xenon decided to spend the winter in the area.
Xenon’s perilous march brought him close to the Roman territory and frustrated the attempts of the enemy to fight out the main issue on foreign ground. His sudden appearance among the Gauls of the Po Valley, moreover, enabled him to be shown from those tribes, as a great Gaul king and protector.
(1) The Romans had poorly treated those Gauls whom they had recently conquered, distributing their land to Roman colonists and taking other unscrupulous measures to ensure the fidelity of this freshly conquered tribe.
Modern day Little St Bernard Pass:
CARTHAGE
After the conquest of Oblia, and following few small skirmishes in Sardinia, Hamilcar attempted the largest scale operation of the war. Seeking a swifter end to the war than the long sieges in Sicily would have provided, decided to invade Rome itself consequently forcing the Romans to accept his terms. In early September he sailed with the bulk of his army for Corsica. After a small stop in Aleria, where he stormed it in a night attack, he sailed for Italy but a storm destroyed nearly half the Carthaginian fleet ; the number of casualties in the disaster have exceeded 20,000 men.With nearly half of his fleet and troops destroyed Hamilcar decided to change plans and set sail for South Italy and then Sicily.
Meanwhile the Carthaginian army in Sicily advanced North-West from Lilybaeum and stormed Panormus. For the next month subsequent guerrilla warfare kept the Roman legions pinned down and preserved Carthage's toehold in Panormus. En route to South Italy, Hamilcar raided and burned several small Roman colonies and allied cities and finally in the end of September he reached the straits of Messana where in a naval battle was victorious over an undermanned and hastily assembled small Roman fleet.
225 BC. Part five.
While Rome had been busy in Italy and Sicily and thus leaving her allies in Massalia to their fate at the hands of the Volcae, Xenon was busy preparing his troops for a descent in Italy. He had intelligence from Po valley Gauls that one consular army was campaigning in Po valley. He had also intelligence from Hamilcar about his plans to move against Rome and that the other consular army was in Sicily.
He needed to reach the Alps quickly in order to beat the onset of winter. He knew that if he waited until springtime on the far side of the mountains, the Romans would have the time to secure Po valley under their total control and also he would miss the opportunity to join forces with Hamilcar.
Preparations
During the siege of Massalia Xenon had also sent a number of druids/embassies to the Gallic tribes in both sides of the Alps. These embassies brought with them troops, food and guides to Xenon.This mission had also the specific aim of establishing a safe place for Xenon to debouch from the Alps into the Po valley. Xenon did not know a great deal about the Alps, but he knew enough to know that it was going to be a difficult march. He had had some scouts give him reports concerning this mountain chain, and he received reports of the difficulties to be encountered. He did not desire to cross this rugged mountain chain and to descend into the Po valley with exhausted troops only to have to fight a battle.
Xenon upon hearing the reports knew enough about the Alps to know in particular that the descent was steeper than the ascent into the Alps. This was one of the reasons he wanted to have allies into whose territory he could march. (The Alps rose as a result of the pressure of the African plate as it moved north against the stable Eurasian landmass; the northward direction of this movement made the Italian side of the Alps considerably steeper). The Insubres and Taurini, whose tribal territory immediately abutted the Alps, and especially the hard pressed by the Romans Boii(1), farther down the Po, were particularly pleased with Xenon’s invasion.
So after receiving news of the route and messages from the Celtic tribes that resided around the Alps, the Volcae set out in late August. Xenon departed with 40,000 infantry and 7,000 cavalry. He left his son back in control of the country with 10,000 infantry and 1,000 cavalry. From Massalia up to where Rhone river meets Isere river the campaign was conducted with speed in order to take as little time as possible. Near Isere Omvix,the young tribal chief of the Helvii, joined, with enthusiasm, Xenon along with 4000 of his warriors.
Ascent of the Alps
Xenon marched in the direction of Mt. Du Chat towards the village of Aquste and from there to Chevelu, to the pass by Mt. Du Chat. The descent from this pass was steep, and the Gauls were having a hard time marching down this side of the pass, especially the baggage animals(few of them were lost). After the steep pass, the baggage was held together in good order and the army followed the road down to the plain that begins roughly at modern Bourget. This plain was 4–6 miles wide at most places. Xenon marched his army to modern Chambery a city of the Allobroges tribe who welcomed them with gifts and cattle for the troops. In addition, more than 1000 of their warriors joined them. This was a pleasant surprise for Xenon, considering that a small portion of their supplies had been lost when some pack animals had fallen over the pass of Mt. Du Chat. He encamped there for 2 days to give his men some time to rest and to collect further rations.
The Gauls continued their march and at modern Albertville they encountered the Centrones tribe, who brought gifts and supplies. In addition, they brought hostages in order to convince Xenon of their commitment to his cause. Then the Centrones guided his army for two days. As they marched through the Little St Bernard Pass near the village of Séez, the pass narrowed again.The army then rested near a large white rock, for two days. It was the end of September.
Descent to Italy
With the Italian side of the Alps much steeper; quite few men lost their footing down this side of the Alps and died. At an early point in their descent, the army came upon a section of the path that had been blocked by a landslide. This section of the path was broken for about 500 meters. Xenon attempted to detour, by marching through a place where there was snow – the Alps are so high at this point that the snow from previous years does not even melt. They made their way through, but at the cost of a small portion of the baggage animals that were left behind.
It took the army five days more days to march from this place into the plains of the Po valley. Xenon then ordered his men to encamp, at a point which is near Sagusia(modern Susa).From there Xenon marched to Taurasia,the Taurini tribe chief town and then to Cremona where he joined forces with the remaining Gaul forces in Po valley. The forces under Xenon command was now 80000 and 11000 cavalry. It was late October by now so Xenon decided to spend the winter in the area.
Xenon’s perilous march brought him close to the Roman territory and frustrated the attempts of the enemy to fight out the main issue on foreign ground. His sudden appearance among the Gauls of the Po Valley, moreover, enabled him to be shown from those tribes, as a great Gaul king and protector.
(1) The Romans had poorly treated those Gauls whom they had recently conquered, distributing their land to Roman colonists and taking other unscrupulous measures to ensure the fidelity of this freshly conquered tribe.
Modern day Little St Bernard Pass:
CARTHAGE
After the conquest of Oblia, and following few small skirmishes in Sardinia, Hamilcar attempted the largest scale operation of the war. Seeking a swifter end to the war than the long sieges in Sicily would have provided, decided to invade Rome itself consequently forcing the Romans to accept his terms. In early September he sailed with the bulk of his army for Corsica. After a small stop in Aleria, where he stormed it in a night attack, he sailed for Italy but a storm destroyed nearly half the Carthaginian fleet ; the number of casualties in the disaster have exceeded 20,000 men.With nearly half of his fleet and troops destroyed Hamilcar decided to change plans and set sail for South Italy and then Sicily.
Meanwhile the Carthaginian army in Sicily advanced North-West from Lilybaeum and stormed Panormus. For the next month subsequent guerrilla warfare kept the Roman legions pinned down and preserved Carthage's toehold in Panormus. En route to South Italy, Hamilcar raided and burned several small Roman colonies and allied cities and finally in the end of September he reached the straits of Messana where in a naval battle was victorious over an undermanned and hastily assembled small Roman fleet.
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I can see TTL's Gaul-Punic-Rome War going better for Carthage despite Halmicars loss. Both Carthage and Rome wore themselves to almost ruin in the punic wars otl so with a third strong player in this war Rome will have bigger problems. As for Xenon/Volcae, their expansion is being carried out the best way. They are most likely the strongest Gaul kingdom and they will end up assimilating their surrounding Gaul soon enough.
Valid points my friend. I am not going to lie... Xenon is building a nice Hegemon status in Gaul. A third major player in the West med is surely going to alter the future of the area.
Donald Reaver
Donor
He does need to draw upon the Greeks on the coast, expanding into Gaul as a whole is perhaps more important, but to be a influence in the Med, he needs the greeks in his territory. Give them a stake that they can live with, not one they die with.
I agree with you. If Xenon wants to be a influence in the Med he needs the Greeks in his territoty.
I think for the Romans the main point of a war with Carthage would be to secure Sicily and the other Mediterranean islands. In the north controling Cisalpine gaul is also important for them. But they really don't have the necessary forces to fight both Carthage and the Volcae led gaul coalition. Still Rome had an incredibly stubborn institution leading it so i dont think they will step down the easy way.
They were lucky in otl,but when their luck clearly ran out,that same stubbornness ran into a lot of trouble. By not giving up doesn't mean they could repeatedly make come backs.My point is that Rome at this stage can most certainly be defeated and even crippled. So i think that it's far from an invincible entity at this stage.
I'd also think that the relationship between the Gauls and the Greeks of South France at this point in time is at an all time low,given how they have conquered Massalia and enslaved most of its popullation...
They were lucky in otl,but when their luck clearly ran out,that same stubbornness ran into a lot of trouble. By not giving up doesn't mean they could repeatedly make come backs.My point is that Rome at this stage can most certainly be defeated and even crippled. So i think that it's far from an invincible entity at this stage.
I'd also think that the relationship between the Gauls and the Greeks of South France at this point in time is at an all time low,given how they have conquered Massalia and enslaved most of its popullation...
The forum member @LSCatilina in another thread criticised some things regarding this ATL and then locked that thread to not allow me to reply with my thesis...
So with all the respect @LSCatilina if you have something to say or criticise my work please feel free to do so, but be ready to hear other people opinion and thesis. If not, you are just a sycophant. My stories and maps are well researched and i challenge you to prove me wrong with evidence.
So with all the respect @LSCatilina if you have something to say or criticise my work please feel free to do so, but be ready to hear other people opinion and thesis. If not, you are just a sycophant. My stories and maps are well researched and i challenge you to prove me wrong with evidence.
markus meecham
Banned
just let the dogs bark away and do your thing, no need to get into stupid fights over here bro
Valid points my friend. Roman mentality was incredibly stubborn,had a huge manpool and ofc luck. I cant see Rome cripple completely but they are hard pressed at the moment.
Valid point again. It will be hard to turn this around. From the other side a lot from the Greek slaves from Massalia went as tutors/house slaves in prominent families in Tolosa etc...
You are right mate.
I don't what is your problem, but please, please don't involve me in your delirium.
I said nothing against your work, and even less yurelf and pointed several things that I estimated you didn't know or really understood while constantly saying it didn't mean it impaired the qualiy of your TL.
Anyone with good faith can see this, and reading it. I can only think that @markus meecham is talking about without having read it, so I advise him to take a look.
As for why I asked the thread to be closed? Because it was a pool thread to ask people about which PoD I shoudl choose : I'm sorry to break it to you, but my threads and my timeline projects are not about you.
Full stop there : you don't have any respect : you insulted me, threatened me of being reported (which is something not really well seen there, as well abuse of report system). I don't trust you to give me any respect, while I did for you.
I did so there, and you were entierly free to either answer in the thread, either by PM or to ignore and agree to disagree.You choose instead to act in a puerile manner, and I'm not interested discussing with you unless you gain some manner and maturity : I've nothing to proove on this behalf, neither to you, neither to myself.
I'd like for you to realize how childish you are, really. But I'm not confident.
markus meecham
Banned
to both @Sersor and @LSCatilina
i apologise for posting without understanding the context, which shouldn't be forgivable for a history student like me.
but can't we just get along?
both of you contribute very positive things to the forums, from well balanced and sourced analysis to creative and engaging timelines, and this fight is not one of those.
peace, y'all.
i apologise for posting without understanding the context, which shouldn't be forgivable for a history student like me.
but can't we just get along?
both of you contribute very positive things to the forums, from well balanced and sourced analysis to creative and engaging timelines, and this fight is not one of those.
peace, y'all.