Actually, I did write a “fair fight” chapter with the Naval Battle of Bamfield, where two identical sister ships fight to a draw...🙂
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The Rainbow. A World War One on Canada's West Coast Timeline
- Thread starter YYJ
- Start date
Plus for all we know Rainbow is going to score a golden BB and blow one of the German cruisers out of the water.
Every time someone needlessly acts like a tool on AH.Com A baby sealion cries
Please, for his sake, don't be like this again.
Warning
Actually, here is the thing... I actually do know what I am talking about. Partially from having a Dad who was in the RCN meant that I have been interested for a long time in such things and the other is actually writing stuff involving the RCN on other sites.
Here is the big thing... the defenses actually don't matter, it is the ships that do. And the big thing is that the German warships were not capable of pulling off this sort of thing to any real extent. Yes, a German Raider might have sunk some shipping, but they could only do it for a few days before needing to leave for somewhere else. And before anyone mentions them grabbing coal from certain towns... that would not work nearly as well as you might think. Mainly because the type of coal used would be different from what the military would use. In fact, warships, like those of Germany, used high grade coal while what they picked up was low grade and would actually cause major problems for the boilers in the warship, reducing the range and power.
You got hopes.
How ironic considering that this timeline is less believable then Sealion in some ways.
Now then, since I am not a tool, I am going to back up my words with how many unicorns there are here.
*Suddenly having an man who came from Austria-Hungary, who knows where every single town that has a possible war related industry decide to defect to the Germans, that's a Unicorn.
*Having them rack up a count in shipping that outstrips Emden's, despite said cruise considering to be the most successful ever and having an extreme amount of luck such as managing to refuel at Diego Garcia at one point with the British there not even knowing that they were at war as well as roaming an entire ocean. That's a unicorn.
*Having it where, somehow, you can spread the crew of a Cruiser between three separate ships with two being civilian ships, with no issue at all in running all three ships. This despite the fact that the one time, historically, we have a German Captain attempt to use a civilian ship as a Merchant Cruiser, he had to strip the crew entirely from his ship as well as at least one gunship and still needed volunteers. That's another Unicorn.
*The fact that one ship runs on oil instead of coal, and somehow the Germans are able to work the boilers with no training at all despite the difference when in real life the RN and others had to retrain boiler men to go from coal to oil. That's another Unicorn.
*Somehow converting civilian vessels to Armed Merchant Cruisers while at sea. There's a reason why such things needed to be done at port because even then, it took days or even weeks to pull off, not an hour or two.
*How whenever captured by the Germans, the Canadians and others become super compliant and will bend over backwards to allow the Germans to do what they want with no resistance. That's another Unicorn.
*How every single decision that the Germans take works out near perfectly for them (such as always attacking towns without the telegraphs getting anything off, attacking a Japanese ship (which at the time was a neutral nation), ignoring American orders to stop with the Americans only ever firing warning shots). That's another Unicorn.
*How the Canadians bumble everything every time. That's another Unicorn.
*Somehow managing to capture an entire town because the townspeople come right up to the strange ship, oh and then transporting them onto one of their ships as well. That's a definite Unicorn.
*Having the Imperial German Navy decide to send a second Cruiser to join them, once more, Unicorn.
*In order to reach Victoria, they need to go through some of the most treacherous waters in the Pacific, which is one of the places termed "The Graveyard of the Pacific". Thus, two more German-Canadians who are highly experienced pilots for the area defect and join them in order to guide them. Definite Unicorn.
*How somehow said ships come out practically entirely undamaged from artillery strikes, unicorn.
*How despite the fact that the Americans are "Neutral", all we have ever seen in this story is how they're supporting the Germans tacitly, if not outright. Unicorn.
*How we get the fact that despite attacking them with torpedoes, said torpedoes fail, including one scraping along the bow, definite unicorn
Hence, at this point, we're way beyond luck and practically into ASB. This is basically somehow claiming that a character in D&D is going to face hardship when all they ever roll is Nat 20s.
So I've been reading this thread over and finally reach the end and I gotta say Harry is right. This whole thing is quite unrealistic and if not ASB is at the least very implausible to a heavy degree. I also don't see how he's a "tool" for calling out the inconsistencies and implausibility of it.
That cruise had no where near the list of stuff Harry mentioned. Hell it was really just the coaling Diego Garcia that was true luck. I can easily make an argument that outside that the entire cruise of Emdem was an example of near perfect seamanship by her officers and crew. Meanwhile this, this just reads like a Kaiserboo Clancy knockoff.
Also having lived up on the US side on Whidbey Island, it is not hard to go to Victoria. I personally know of people who went from Port Townsend on the Olympic Pen. to Victoria on a regular basis in a Boston Whaler. Victoria is right on the Straits of Juan De Fuca and not up a Fjord or narrow bay. As to navigation, charts were available of all the areas at this time period and were accurate for their uses. The Graveyard is the area off of the Portland Bar at the mouth of the Columbia river.
It is, as they say, all in the approach. You can point out issues, eve n declare something to be utterly impossible, Lord knows we have enough dead and buried Sealion thread to prove that.
What you can't do, assuming it is reported, is limb the snark ladder to where you become insulting/demeaning/just plain old rude to another member.
Ursine tip: When I play the baby sealion card it means you have gone from constructively critical to just plain ol' mean. The Baby Sealion is the top card in the "cut this horseshit out" deck. Next step will ALWAYS be a warning ort a kick depeding if someone calls or raises.
Out of curiosity what exactly was rude with the post? It didn't come off as that outside of maybe the "now since I'm not a tool" line. Genuinely curious by the way as I have a hard time picking up stuff like that.
Oh, you mean the follow up?
In that case he simply clearly had not gotten the message and decided that he would continue in the same vein. an admonishment is only enough if the individual gets it. If they don't, then something more formal, which an admonishment is not, is required. Depending on how far a person goes after a warning snarl determines of it is a formal warn, Kick or, on one occasion I can recall, a straight up Ban (that however was after a remarkable set of PMs that indicated that the individual was, in fact, an Honest-to-God Nazi).
Ramontxo
Donor
To YYJ, please sir keep on with the good job. IMHO this timeline is not only (very) interesting, it also open the question of what the German could have attained if planning for this operation before the war. I assume most of the information need, that in the tale comes by good luck to the Germans (like maps and factorys emplacements etc) could have been easily obtained before the war by German Diplomatic diplomatic personnel .
Thank you! Regarding intelligence, the German Diplomatic corps and/or Naval Intelligence did in a sense provide the information on industrial targets. The meeting with Trade Commissioner Meyer and the father and son team of pilots was arranged and conveyed to Von Schönberg by wireless on August 3, before the outbreak of the war, in the chapter entitled Don’t Tread on Me, although Von Schönberg did not realize the significance at the time. Haun on the Leipzig also received the same orders somewhere, I think when he was at the consulate in San Francisco. The meeting with the two German pilots was not a co-incidence. The meeting with Lieutenant Radl was, on the other hand, complete happenstance.
I really enjoy the TL. People will always find fault with anything written and hue the cry of ASB! I mean a number of folks would call the first two years of WW2 or even the foolishness of allied diplomats prior ASB if it hadn't actually happened so.
The writing is crisp and generally exciting and overall the dialogue well written.
But you're killing me with the chapter cliffhangers. LOL 😉
Anyway, thanks for writing and sharing this. It's very enjoyable!
The writing is crisp and generally exciting and overall the dialogue well written.
But you're killing me with the chapter cliffhangers. LOL 😉
Anyway, thanks for writing and sharing this. It's very enjoyable!
As an addition to that information from your timeline itself, Germany of our timeline was not simply standing still. There was a flurry of wingnut invasion plans and war ideas directed on the various coasts of North America through out the early 1900's. The unprotected cruiser SMS Falke was dispatched to survey 'all the more important coastal points including the west coast of Canada' during an April of 1904 expedition. SMS Panther also conducted a lengthy voyage throughout 1905 and 1906 where she conducted scouting along all of North America. She found many protected inlets and harbors which could serve future raiders well in hiding and resupplying themselves. These warships alongside many others both civilian and military were mapping and obtaining valuable information on North America up until the declaration of war in 1914. All of this information was compiled into literature referred to as the "Cruiser Handbook" and was a vital source of information for all cruisers and German warships tasked with commerce warfare. Infrastructure is not hard to find, especially when your civilian merchants can simply observe it as they go about their normal duties.
Agreed, the Germans are rolling 6's so far, but I'm finding it extremely enjoyable. Waiting for more!
Kudos to you, YYJ.
I'll take this point by point as well as I can because I feel this criticism is largely unfair and unwarranted. How are the German cruisers not capable of pulling such an operation off successfully? The coast of British Columbia and its defenses were absolutely abysmal due to the total lack of care and funding provided by the federal government. There was a pathetic sum of actually trained personnel on the outbreak of war, the majority of personnel consisted of green naval reservist recruits, fisheries enforcement officers and retired Royal Navy pulled from their various homes to make some kind of a force. This was decisively a rag tag and largely ineffective force even before they are put up against a pair of cruisers from the East Asia Squadron, one of the crack units of the German Navy. It is especially telling that you criticize this timeline for unfairness towards the Canadians when YYJ has specifically bent real events in the Canadians favor in places. Torpedoes likely arrived earlier than IRL, the Vancouver coastal defense batteries are set up earlier than IRL and the militia units being sent to places like Prince Rupert I believe happened much faster here than IRL as well.
I think you are heavily underestimating how long warships can remain on station with or without a proper coal and food supply, which was later found in this timeline regardless. The point regarding low quality coal could be an issue however, ships in the area would be unlikely to be burning coal of such a low quality. Most of the coal in British Columbia was Bituminous with small stocks of high quality Anthracite coal for use in vessels such as coastal liners and other government vessels. The author has never mentioned which type of coal was acquired and honestly, I don't particularly think it matters in the end. As long as there is cleaning of the boilers eventually, warships can still function off bituminous coal especially of the quality usually found within British Columbia. Such coal is not as problematic as sub-bituminous or god forbid lignite and generally is not an issue. If such cleaning is not undertaken, we will see the Germans suffer for it eventually I would hope.
I get you are off on a lark but comparing this timeline unironically to Operation Sealion is disingenuous and unfair to the hard work and effort that has been put in so far.
"Suddenly" having a man from Austria-Hungary is not as silly as you make it out to be when you look at the context. The Grand Trunk Pacific Railway fancied itself the star steamship line in the area and given the sheer financial and political power they wielded in the BC area, it is not hard to guess that they would like to crew their vessels with the best officers possible. British Columbia itself in this period was a melting pot, a significant number of immigrants from all over the world had made their way to the area and settled. It is not far fetched to say that a retired Austro-Hungarian Naval officer could be hired on for his skills and serve a long career servicing the various ports all along British Columbia. If push came to shove in such an unfair situation, a man of his skills 'switching sides' is more than plausible.
Simply "doing better than" or matching the exploits of Emden being unreasonable is silly. Emden was simply another cruiser of the East Asia Squadron, it is undeniable she had a rather spectacular career but it's also ignorant to simply dismiss the fact that her comrades in the squadron could not do the same or better than she did in an alternate situation such as this, especially given how much of a mess coastal BC was.
You've attempted to make the point in regards to crew compliments and the Cormoran in the past but I believe you have also seemingly failed to consider the helpful crew compliment list that the author has posted before in regards to your issues.
Cormoran was a complete crew hog, similar in fact to an actual warship. Add in the fact that she was armed with basically the exact armament of a period light cruiser and you have your reason for the amount of men she sucked up, potentially as well as her officers wanting additional prize crews in order to deal with any captures. The vessels described in the story are more modern, smaller and most of them are oil fueled and not even remotely as heavily armed as Cormoran. This issue was already addressed, I don't see why you'd bring it up once again. The issue regarding having proper crews to conduct damage control an day to day actions of the vessels is in fact valid though, we've already seen some damage and potentially will see the effects of such actions in the future.
The swap from oil to coal actually isn't a major issue. The German Navy had been utilizing partial oil firing and even trialed full oiled fired ships at multiple occasions before this story took place, sailors are not simply going to be completely unaware in regards to how oil fueled boilers work even if the ships they are currently serving aboard did not feature it. There would obviously be a learning period to get all of the fine details of operation down but acting like it is such a large hurdle is silly. Going from VTE to turbines is where a lot of the RN's issues came from as they are two different worlds, oil to coal not so much.
Princess Charlotte was not outfitted out in the open sea, she was seemingly brought alongside Nurnberg and the small 5.2cm guns, cannons and machine guns were simply hoisted over and installed. Such actions take time however in Chatham Sound, the weather and sea states should be sufficiently calm to allow such an operation to happen. If you were outfitting vessels with 4" guns or larger, sure it would be an issue but with weapons of this scale and being small in number, hardly an issue. Prince Rupert was similarly armed within Portland Inlet which again, is an area where transferring such weaponry across would definitely be possible.
The people of British Columbia were not ready for such a war, military or not. When presented with enemy force especially as in a lot of these situations they are at a heavy disadvantage, it makes sense that men would not wish to blindly throw their lives away when it is not needed. We have seen contradictions to this in the last few chapters, primarily the telegraph operator staying at his station and especially the tug captain who attempted to foul one of the cruisers prop and rudder. The people of BC would fight back eventually, however a mixture of surprise and unfavorable situations tends to take the fight out of people quickly.
As for the accusation of everything simply going perfectly for the Germans, I do agree to a point but that swings around again to my previous points. We're dealing with an enemy force bordering on elite with many serious local advantages versus a very rural area with extremely limited preparations to deal with such foes. Could the Germans have been sighted earlier? Sure but as we've seen in the story, such sightings can simply be passed off by the authorities as hysteria and false sightings. They deliberately targeted infrastructure in an order to limit communications getting out and they succeeded, they could have easily failed. Just because they didn't doesn't make the timeline somehow ASB. The Germans did not attack that Japanese neutral, there was no violence involved and the parties both went on their way afterwards. While it might have been a breech of their neutrality, it was expedient to the Germans to stop them from communicating their position and belatedly, the Captain agreed. Such issues will not matter in the future as Japan was soon on track to becoming a direct enemy of Germany, the ships Captain expressly mentions that in the chapter itself. As for the Americans, it is rather obvious that they were not as willing as the Germans to cause an international incident and actually attack the raiders directly. Even with that said, the consequences of those actions are outside the scope of the story itself. The US Revenue Cutter Service literally broke neutrality a few chapters ago to inform the British Consul in Seattle of suspicious warships and liners racing around the internal waters.
Bumbling Canadians tie back into my previous points once again, under funded, inexperienced and ill prepared people tend to not perform at peak condition when compared to seasoned veterans.
What are the town people supposed to do against multiple armed warships and their crew, especially when it reasonably communicated to them by either the Germans or the powers at be that they will not be harmed if both parties are respectful of each other? One group of the townspeople in the story attempted to fight back alongside the various militia skirmishes but to a point, the town is effectively at the mercy of the Germans and I believe they would rather avoid an unnecessary bombardment.
The Germans had multiple cruisers operating independently in various oceans undertaking cruiser warfare against British merchants, it's not a stretch that the Germans could realize the potential the basically unprotected shores of BC had and capitalized on that more than IRL. Leipzig was already in the area and patrolled around the West Coast historically, Nurnberg was the product of this timeline.
The author explained this above,
I would add to this again that the Germans had previously mapped the area around British Columbia in the time before WWI on their various cruises of the area. Alongside all of these experienced pilots and previous knowledge of the area, all of the local and foreign vessels the Germans seized and sunk would have had nautical charts of the area that were likely fairly up to date, assisting them even more with such a venture.
I don't know if you expected a pair of 60 pounder field artillery guns manned by the Militia and another pair of hastily setup 4" naval guns manned by raw reservists to cripple or otherwise heavily damage a largely fully functional warship but obviously that is not the right expectation to have. It's surprising the various batteries did as well as they did given the damage that actually was sustained by Nurnberg during the attacks. Warships don't simply crumple and fall to dust when met with ineffectual fire from similarly sized guns to its own main battery, only much less in number and effectiveness.
Again see above, the Americans have given the Canadians assistance or turned a blind eye in the past. Neutrality is not about picking favorites and the US has stuck to that so far in the story.
In relation to the torpedoes, having a near miss is nothing suspect and especially in regards to their condition, them failing to properly work is not a surprise to me. These torpedoes were fairly old and well used stock that came from the Halifax Naval Base, meaning they saw a fair amount of use as practice shots and were likely not given the amount of maintenance and upkeep required by the RN and largely, later the Canadian government when they took the base over. Hastily adapting them to be fired from largely questionable Chilean submarines with incredibly green crews is a recipe for this happening.
If you actually look at the context provided or otherwise implied by common sense, a lot of these "ASB unicorns" have explanations. If you choose to agree with those is another matter but I find it unfair to say this timeline is simply unrealistic due to you simply not liking the reasonable explanations given. I have seen true ASB timelines, 3-4 capital ships exploding in the same WWII battle, attempts at modern boarding and salvage actions in WWII against capital ships, silly Nazi wank and much, much more. I will state for the record that I am not a fan of the amount of land actions the German sailors have taken in this timeline, it has played with my believability at certain points and comes off to me as a bit of a step too far. Even with that critique in mind though, it doesn't simply turn the entire timeline into ASB territory with unbelievable and highly questionable material at every turn. The Germans have been rolling around with a large amount of luck however, such things are plentiful in war. There is context and reasoning for their success if you would be open minded enough to accept such information.
I swear this rant was going to be much shorter originally.
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marathag
Banned
Horatio Hornblower Novels were a BritWank, yet highly enjoyable to read.
Real History would be seen as near ASB in parallel Earths, like the Japanese in the first 6 months of WWII, or Lettow-Vorbeck's entire time from 1914 to 1918