ATL the division would be surely different than OTL as George got the majority of the Warwick and Salisbury inheritances while here Anne would get at least half of the lands who she could inherit (that if Edward do not decide to attaint Warwick, Montagu and the wife of the first and then give the lands to Isabel and Anne, with some of them already settled on Anne’s daughter or to his son).
The Pale and the Purple Rose
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
It may have been, there's no record (AFAIK) of what Anne's "dower" was when she married Edward of Westminster (likely it was either in French archives and lost in the Wars of Religion/Revolution; or in English ones and lost with the York victory). But I find it very hard to believe that Marguerite d'Anjou would've even allowed talk of a marriage without talk of a suitable dowry for her.
I'm still not sure why he didn't just do that OTL. Would've saved so much time and trouble
only way I could see her doing it is either if she planned to have the marriage set aside as soon as the Yorkists were defeated (this would make sense given the suggestion the marriage wasn't consummated according to some authors). Or she was relying on Warwick being Warwick and turning on them, thus getting attainted and the whole lot being returned to the crown anyway. Both need her to rely on powers of clairvoyance.
Whatever the dowry had been precisely established or not, Anne Neville was a great heiress being entitled to an half of well two very rich inheritances (the Warwick one from her mother and the lesser but still substantial Salisbury one from her father) who would be more than enough for any groom. OTL she got much less than she was entitled as George was greedy, reason for which Richard got also the male line Neville lands
Because he had two idiotic brothers who were against it, wanting the lands as inheritance of their wives instead of royal grants after attainders (as they felt who they would be more secure in their possession if it could not being challenged by other heirs… read it as they were total idiots as the Warwick and Salisbury lands were the inheritance of Isabella and Anne meaning who nobody else could claim it and the Neville male line lands required one of the worst ever twists of the laws for working and still not guaranteed their permanent possession to Richard‘s line)
Ask and ye shall receive: The Croyland Chronicle records that Richard agreed to a prenuptial contract in the following terms: "the marriage of the Duke of Gloucester with Anne before-named was to take place, and he was to have such and so much of the earl's lands as should be agreed upon between them through the mediation of arbitrators; while all the rest were to remain in the possession of the Duke of Clarence". The date of Paston's letter suggests the marriage was still being negotiated in February 1472. In order to win George's final consent to the marriage, Richard renounced most of the Earl of Warwick's land and property including the earldoms of Warwick (which the Kingmaker had held in his wife's right) and Salisbury and surrendered to George the office of Great Chamberlain of England. Richard retained Neville's forfeit estates he had already been granted in the summer of 1471: Penrith, Sheriff Hutton and Middleham, where he later established his marital household.
So, without being vulgar, Richard got less than excrement on his marriage to Anne because George basically demanded the lot.
You're welcome. It took a lot of searching over the wikipedia pages for Richard, Anne, Isabel, Lady Warwick and George to find it, but I eventually found it, with the attached reference link, on Richard III's wikipedia page.
another question I have is about Jasper Tudor. The lands he was granted in Wales are...awkward. The first grant (the lordship of Pembroke in 1452) has kinda been regranted to the Herberts. This isn't a problem while the Lancastrians are in power. Even Edward IV was able to pressure Pembroke to swap his earldom (temporarily).
However, Jasper's other lands are...problematic.
Along with Pembroke, he was also named Lord of Builth (uncontested) and Hereford (although nothing like Earl of Hereford, simply "Lord Hereford"). AFAIK, Hereford was part of the Bohun inheritance claimed by the Buckinghams.
He was named was named constable of the castles of Aberystwyth, Carmarthen and Carreg Cennen in April 1457 (again, these are uncontested AFAIK).
The problem comes in when York was attainted/executed. Jasper gets given quite a few of York's Welsh lands (for instance, the lordship of Denbigh, formerly part of the Mortimer inheritance and the lordship of Glamorgan, taken from the Nevilles). Of course, Edward IV's accession in 1461, these grants are rendered irrelevant.
However, during the readeption, Jasper was confirmed in his previous grants. And apparently granted Abergavenny instead of Glamorgan (he ended up getting both under Henry VII). Problem with Abergavenny is that it was in the hands of another Neville (although I'm not sure if this one defected with the Kingmaker to the Lancastrians or not).
So, in short, regardless of the final outcome of Lancastrian v York, Jasper seems to end up with nothing. If Lancaster wins, the Nevilles are onside, and he loses Glamorgan (possibly Abergavenny). Clarence will likely contest Denbigh (assuming he can get back in and sell his "I was captured by the Yorkists" argument). But if Lancaster loses, Jasper (even if he keeps his head) loses Denbigh, Glamorgan (because Clarence will claim it in right of his wife as OTL), Abergavenny, Pembroke, potentially Hereford (I don't see Edward IV siding with Jasper over his brother-in-law, Buckingham) and likely the constableships too. Leaving him, at best, as "Lord Builth".
However, Jasper's other lands are...problematic.
Along with Pembroke, he was also named Lord of Builth (uncontested) and Hereford (although nothing like Earl of Hereford, simply "Lord Hereford"). AFAIK, Hereford was part of the Bohun inheritance claimed by the Buckinghams.
He was named was named constable of the castles of Aberystwyth, Carmarthen and Carreg Cennen in April 1457 (again, these are uncontested AFAIK).
The problem comes in when York was attainted/executed. Jasper gets given quite a few of York's Welsh lands (for instance, the lordship of Denbigh, formerly part of the Mortimer inheritance and the lordship of Glamorgan, taken from the Nevilles). Of course, Edward IV's accession in 1461, these grants are rendered irrelevant.
However, during the readeption, Jasper was confirmed in his previous grants. And apparently granted Abergavenny instead of Glamorgan (he ended up getting both under Henry VII). Problem with Abergavenny is that it was in the hands of another Neville (although I'm not sure if this one defected with the Kingmaker to the Lancastrians or not).
So, in short, regardless of the final outcome of Lancastrian v York, Jasper seems to end up with nothing. If Lancaster wins, the Nevilles are onside, and he loses Glamorgan (possibly Abergavenny). Clarence will likely contest Denbigh (assuming he can get back in and sell his "I was captured by the Yorkists" argument). But if Lancaster loses, Jasper (even if he keeps his head) loses Denbigh, Glamorgan (because Clarence will claim it in right of his wife as OTL), Abergavenny, Pembroke, potentially Hereford (I don't see Edward IV siding with Jasper over his brother-in-law, Buckingham) and likely the constableships too. Leaving him, at best, as "Lord Builth".
I'm not sure where this picture of "Edward of Lancaster, Prince of Wales" is from, or even if he ever used the arms of Aragon, Anjou, Lorraine and Naples ascribed to him in the picture.
But aside from the oft-used picture below, it's the only portrait I can find of him that seems "remotely" realistic (plenty of depictions of him being murdered or as a child) if stylized like those of Anne Neville:
Although ISTR there is speculation that two of the figures in the Coventry Tapestry might be Edward of Westminster and Cardinal Beaufort.
But aside from the oft-used picture below, it's the only portrait I can find of him that seems "remotely" realistic (plenty of depictions of him being murdered or as a child) if stylized like those of Anne Neville:
Although ISTR there is speculation that two of the figures in the Coventry Tapestry might be Edward of Westminster and Cardinal Beaufort.
Circa Regna Tonat
Soundtrack: Thomas Tallis - O Nata Lux[1]
August 1471
*exterior* *London* *dawn* *some ships flying the Burgundian colours sail up the river* *next thing we see the colours hauled down and a flag in murrey-and-blue hoisted* *the arms of England flutter out, flanked by a black bull and a black dragon, while the lions of England are picked out in white[2]*
*we see Antony Wydeville leading a garrison of troops out of the Tower of London into the city streets as we hear the thundering of cannons* *then the church bells start pealing a warning*
*Hastings crosses himself as he, George, duke of Clarence and their party encounter a posse of Lancastrians*
*interior* *L’Erber[3]* *this is clearly a few days later* *George of Clarence, Richard of Gloucester, Antony Wydeville, Hastings, Edward Brandon and John Savage are all seated around a table* *we hear some noises through the ceiling that all the men are attempting to ignore*
George: *after a particularly loud noise* *cattily interrupts* it’s rather remarkable. London is fallen, the fires in Southwark and Aldgate are put out, Bishopsgate and the bridge have been taken back from Fauconberg[4], and instead of going to his wife, my brother is upstairs in my house fucking another bastard into a whore.
Wydeville: *although from his expression he does seem to agree with the majority of Clarence’s sentiments* my sister is still in sanctuary. I doubt the Dean of Westminster would welcome a second child born in his purlieus.
George: *ignoring him* *to Hastings* has my brother decided what it is he will do with my sister, the princess of Wales?
Hastings: in what event, sir? She will not come to London willingly.
George: in the event that, now that we have London *tone implies “again”* and the north, I expect our next push will be towards Windsor and Oxford. Should we take them successfully, there is the matter of the princess of Wales-
Richard: *indulgently* don’t be greedy, George. There are her mother-in-law and mother to be considered as well.
George: I assure you, Crumplin[5], that that is the furthest thing from my mind. Rather, I was talking of the state in which she’s in.
*Edward IV walks into the room, escorted by Thomas St. Leger and William Norris* *the men stand*
Edward IV: *tiredly* not still jealous that even that Lancastrian brat could do what you couldn’t, George?
George: *brushing it off* I was talking of the inevitable outcome of her state.
Edward IV: inevitable? *sits down* *motions for men to do so as well* I don’t believe it’s inevitable.
Hastings: the princess of Wales is with child. That is certain.
Edward IV: was there ever any doubt?
Wydeville: I believe- what his Royal Highness is attempting to ask, Majesty- is what you intend to do about the situation should we be required to deal with it.
Edward IV: is there any doubt among you that I will deal with the situation? *harsh tone* when that boy is born, we will be finished. It will make no difference that their soi disant prince turns eighteen, he and Warwick will be bound to one another.
Richard: you could name him a bastard.
Edward IV: *indulgently* Dickon…*tuts* dearest crooked of face, crooked of back, crooked of wit Dickon, what would that help? Father did it with King Henry’s son and started this whole war. If Father was correct and he is a bastard, then the child has no claim to the throne. Naming him a bastard is superfluous. If Father was wrong, and he isn’t a bastard, but his son is, the boy is still the sole heir of the Earl of Warwick. And he can summon the entirety of the Nevilles to support him as they once supported us.
Brandon: so what will you do, your Majesty?
Edward IV: *coldly* whatever is necessary.
*exterior* *Windsor Castle* *cut to council room* *King Henry, Queen Marguerite are both present* *as are Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke, his nephew, Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, John Beaufort, Marquess of Dorset, the earl of Oxford and Chancellor Wenlock* *”in the hotseat” -as it were- is the Earl of Warwick*
Marguerite: Milord Warwick, I warned you what would happen if you played us false.
Warwick: and I assure your Majesty that I have done no such thing.
Dorset: are we to believe that there was no prior agreement? That your nephew simply let London fall to the earl of March.
Warwick: he did not, Milord of Dorset, rather he fought bravely with what forces he had at his disposal. When he and his men were unable to hold London bridge, they set it and Southwark aflame in an attempt to prevent the earl’s forces from crossing.
Pembroke: but they did still cross.
Warwick: say what you mean, Milord of Pembroke. The time for veiled accusations is long past- don’t you think?
*the doors to the council room bang open* *Edward of Westminster strides in* *carrying Edward, 5th duke of Somerset, on his hip* *the little boy looks rather delighted at whatever Edward is saying to him* *then the prince of Wales deposits the three-year-old in the vacant seat*
Marguerite: *exasperatedly* Edward-
*both Edwards look at her at the mention of her name*
Edward of Westminster: *sotto voce to Somerset* she’s talking to me. *leans on back of chair and looks at his mother* yes, maman?
Marguerite: what are you doing?
Westminster: attending a council meeting that seems to have been called without inviting me, your Majesty *looks pointedly at his father* *Henry simply lowers his eyes* and since the duke of Somerset is the highest peer in the realm after our good selves *Pembroke and Richmond both seem to grasp the implications of this* it is only fitting that he should attend as well.
Richmond: *disgustedly* he is a child. A basta-
Westminster: *puts his hands over Somerset’s ears* that’s enough. *to guardsman at the door* captain, if you will please escort Milord Richmond back to his rooms until he can learn to keep a civil tongue in his head.
*the rest of the council looks surprised* *the captain comes forward* *Richmond throws the hand off*
Richmond: unhand me you filth *glares at guard* my God a peasant like you to a queen’s grandson!
Westminster: yes…a queen’s grandson. Not a king’s. *motions to guard to continue* *we hear Richmond being a typical 14-year-old sent to his room by a parent* *Westminster sits in Richmond’s chair* now…why is my dear father [in-law] not seated? *motions to him to sit down*
Dorset: we were discussing the treasonous correspondence of the Earl of Warwick with his son, the duke of Clarence.
Westminster: my brother of Clarence is well, I trust?
Dorset: *caught flat-footed* he offers terms for the earl of Warwick.
Westminster: what terms?
Warwick: in light of your Royal Highness’ approaching birthday, the duke of Clarence has written me offering to intercede with me with the earl of March for clemency should I return to their side[6].
Westminster: *nods amiably* and would you desert your grandson, milord? *makes Somerset laugh by pulling a silly face*
Warwick: it seems that Milords of Dorset and Pembroke regard my receiving this letter and presenting it to them as proof of my forfeiture of your Majesties’ trust.
Westminster: *to Marguerite* and has he forfeited your trust, Maman? He has received a letter and shown it to you. He did not disappear in the dead of night.
Marguerite: there is his nephew’s surrender of London to consider.
Westminster: *gets out of his chair and paces restlessly* that is his nephew’s behaviour. Not his. And as I understand it, Milord Bastard acquitted himself rather well with the means he had at his disposal. *turns witheringly on Dorset and Pembroke* the same, sadly, cannot be said of either of you, milords, who retreated from London when you merely heard that the York forces were approaching.
Dorset: we were looking to his Majesty’s safety, your Royal Highness.
Westminster: there were many who said you were looking to your own. *calmly* now…Milord Pembroke…you will return to Wales. You will rally as many men as you are able- tell them that their prince is requiring of their services once more.
Pembroke: my nephew, sir-
Westminster: he is young. He is forgiven. He will stay with me-
Pembroke: but I am responsible for him. Since his father died. We have seldom been parted-
Westminster: *royal tone* we would keep him here. With us.
Pembroke: *looks conflicted but finally bows in obedience*
Westminster: now, Milord Dorset…I trust you have no further aspersions to cast on *heavy tone* our most trustworthy father’s loyalties.
Dorset: none, sir.
Westminster: good. Then, Milord Warwick, you will write to my brother of Clarence-
*stunned silence at table*
Westminster: and you will offer him our terms.
*exterior* *Woodstock Palace* *we see Edward of Westminster arriving*
*interior* *Anne Neville- now visibly pregnant- is sitting near a window in her rooms* *she is having her portrait painted* *her sisters, Isabel, duchess of Clarence and Margaret Huddleston[7], are talking to her* *we can see Isabel’s levity is more forced[8]*
Page: his Royal Highness, the Prince of Wales.
*Isabel and Margaret both rise and curtsey as their brother-in-law enters* *they- and the painter- turn to leave*
Edward: Lady Huddleston, if you’ll be so kind as to close the door on your way out. This concerns Isabel too.
*Margaret looks sympathetically at her sister as she closes the door* *Anne takes her sister’s hand*
Edward: *puts finger under her chin and raises her head* nothing quite so drastic to merit such a face, dear sister. I’d not endanger the life of my son if it were.
*both Anne and Isabel look relieved*
Edward: George has written.
Isabel: *trying to play it cool* he is unharmed?
Edward: *irritatedly* certainly far less than your cousin of Fauconberg. I hear he’ll now look the pirate…with the eyepatch. *normal tone* although I must say…if I were the one holding him prisoner, he should be in the Tower’s dungeons and not living at L’Erber[9].
Anne: but that’s father’s house. George has no right to it.
Edward: your father is the one to whom George has written.
Anne: but why?
Edward: to make him a deal that would not see his head separated from his shoulders.
Isabel: your Royal Highness trusts that Edward will uphold it.
Edward: this Edward would. That Edward…well…I don’t trust him to do it. He’s played this role before. Offering clemency as a ruse de guerre[10]. After all…if his behaviour with Pembroke or Devon[11] is anything to go by, he would’ve beheaded Arundel and installed one of his own protégés as earl. Not allowed the earl’s son to succeed on promise that he would not take arms against him again.
Anne: and you believe that my cousin of Arundel will abide by that, Ned?
Edward: I’ve offered to make his daughter[12] a duchess by betrothing her to Somerset. I was unaware that the earl of March has any dukes up his sleeve aside from that poor miserable specimen that is his brother.
Anne: *lightly scolding* you shouldn’t be cruel about Crumplin like that, Ned.
Edward: your charity does your credit, Nanette[13]. But when he has called me a bastard, I suspect I am being too kind by half. *he throws himself on the bed* in fact…my kindness to your sister was called weakness earlier.
Isabel: to me, your Royal Highness?
Edward: I would return you to your husband’s loving arms. That’s what the wedding vows say, do they not? What God has so joined let no man set asunder?
Isabel: why?
Edward: gesture of good will. We will allow you to return to George. And in exchange, they are to give us Lords Clifford, Fauconberg, Ormonde and Wiltshire. Personally, I would hand over Richmond in exchange for his stepfather, but sadly, even George wrote back and said they don’t even want him.
*both women laugh*
Isabel: but I would have to leave Annie- and Madge.
Edward: *climbing off the bed* *walking over to the easel* for a little while, yes. Who knows…perhaps when we see one another again, you will both be the mother to an Edward.
Isabel: *looks conflicted*
Edward: *squints at the painting* *then looks at Anne* this looks nothing like you. *the nose is too long and the chin non-existent* *plus, she’s shown with straight fair hair instead of her curling more strawberry-blonde colour* when we win, I’ll ask my grandfather to send over a portraitist. Best in France. No…someone Italian- they know all sorts of new things- get a proper picture done of you. The way the Yorks describe me, one would believe I was a squash-faced, pot-bellied dwarf *the clearly not short or pot-bellied Ned bends over and kisses her pouty mouth tenderly, puts a protective hand on her belly*
*fade to black*
[1] The O nata lux text is taken from a 10th-century anonymous hymn that uses the concept of light to symbolise hope. The hymn is sung at Lauds on the feast of the Transfiguration (6 August)
[2] Mostly because the “roses” symbol is anachronistic. The black bull (symbol of Lionel of Antwerp, duke of Clarence), the black dragon (symbol of the earldom of Ulster) and the white lions (the Mortimer earldom of March, Richard II’s “chosen heir”) were used by the Yorks to underline the “primacy” of their claim
[3] “One of the finest houses in London” as a contemporary described it. The property of Warwick which later passed to his daughter, Isabel, duchess of Clarence
[4] Nephew of the Kingmaker
[5] I read that this was an (affectionate) nickname used by Clarence and the Nevilles (where he was brought up) for Richard III. It means one who is “small in stature and crooked of appearance”
[6] Clarence did this OTL
[7] The Kingmaker’s bastard daughter, married to Richard Huddleston sometime between 1464 and the Nevilles’ departure for France. Huddleston himself was the heir to his father, the 9e Lord Millom. However, sadly, he predeceased his father- possibly dying at Bosworth. Margaret was certainly in Anne’s household when she became queen, and given her “closeness” would be a prime candidate for a post like the later mistress of the robes
[8] There seems to be very little evidence to support the popular depictions of George, duke of Clarence as a an abusive drunkard. In fact, all things considered, he and Isabel seem to have had a – for the time – reasonably contented marriage. It’s worth noting that he’s the only one of his brothers to have fathered no bastards or kept a mistress. And his reaction after her death OTL suggests someone genuinely mad with grief at the loss and looking for someone to blame.
[9] Warwick’s townhouse in London that George and Isabel inherited
[10] Edward IV lured both Robert Dymoke's father (Thomas Dymoke) and the 8e Baron Welles (Dymoke's uncle) from Westminster Abbey with the promise of a pardon
[11] Two earldoms were Edward IV awarded the lands to his supporters
[12] This would be Margaret FitzAlan. How committed Edward of Westminster is to this betrothal is debatable, but at the same time, he's right about the fact that the only "duke" Edward IV has readily available, is the duke of Gloucester. The Lancasters, by contrast, have both the duke of Somerset and George Neville (who hasn't been deprived of the dukedom of Bedford yet) in reserve.
[13] From a contemporary description of Anne: seemly, amiable and beauteous, and in conditions full commendable and right virtuous and, according to the interpretation of her name, Anne, full gracious.
August 1471
*exterior* *London* *dawn* *some ships flying the Burgundian colours sail up the river* *next thing we see the colours hauled down and a flag in murrey-and-blue hoisted* *the arms of England flutter out, flanked by a black bull and a black dragon, while the lions of England are picked out in white[2]*
*we see Antony Wydeville leading a garrison of troops out of the Tower of London into the city streets as we hear the thundering of cannons* *then the church bells start pealing a warning*
*Hastings crosses himself as he, George, duke of Clarence and their party encounter a posse of Lancastrians*
*interior* *L’Erber[3]* *this is clearly a few days later* *George of Clarence, Richard of Gloucester, Antony Wydeville, Hastings, Edward Brandon and John Savage are all seated around a table* *we hear some noises through the ceiling that all the men are attempting to ignore*
George: *after a particularly loud noise* *cattily interrupts* it’s rather remarkable. London is fallen, the fires in Southwark and Aldgate are put out, Bishopsgate and the bridge have been taken back from Fauconberg[4], and instead of going to his wife, my brother is upstairs in my house fucking another bastard into a whore.
Wydeville: *although from his expression he does seem to agree with the majority of Clarence’s sentiments* my sister is still in sanctuary. I doubt the Dean of Westminster would welcome a second child born in his purlieus.
George: *ignoring him* *to Hastings* has my brother decided what it is he will do with my sister, the princess of Wales?
Hastings: in what event, sir? She will not come to London willingly.
George: in the event that, now that we have London *tone implies “again”* and the north, I expect our next push will be towards Windsor and Oxford. Should we take them successfully, there is the matter of the princess of Wales-
Richard: *indulgently* don’t be greedy, George. There are her mother-in-law and mother to be considered as well.
George: I assure you, Crumplin[5], that that is the furthest thing from my mind. Rather, I was talking of the state in which she’s in.
*Edward IV walks into the room, escorted by Thomas St. Leger and William Norris* *the men stand*
Edward IV: *tiredly* not still jealous that even that Lancastrian brat could do what you couldn’t, George?
George: *brushing it off* I was talking of the inevitable outcome of her state.
Edward IV: inevitable? *sits down* *motions for men to do so as well* I don’t believe it’s inevitable.
Hastings: the princess of Wales is with child. That is certain.
Edward IV: was there ever any doubt?
Wydeville: I believe- what his Royal Highness is attempting to ask, Majesty- is what you intend to do about the situation should we be required to deal with it.
Edward IV: is there any doubt among you that I will deal with the situation? *harsh tone* when that boy is born, we will be finished. It will make no difference that their soi disant prince turns eighteen, he and Warwick will be bound to one another.
Richard: you could name him a bastard.
Edward IV: *indulgently* Dickon…*tuts* dearest crooked of face, crooked of back, crooked of wit Dickon, what would that help? Father did it with King Henry’s son and started this whole war. If Father was correct and he is a bastard, then the child has no claim to the throne. Naming him a bastard is superfluous. If Father was wrong, and he isn’t a bastard, but his son is, the boy is still the sole heir of the Earl of Warwick. And he can summon the entirety of the Nevilles to support him as they once supported us.
Brandon: so what will you do, your Majesty?
Edward IV: *coldly* whatever is necessary.
*exterior* *Windsor Castle* *cut to council room* *King Henry, Queen Marguerite are both present* *as are Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke, his nephew, Henry Tudor, Earl of Richmond, John Beaufort, Marquess of Dorset, the earl of Oxford and Chancellor Wenlock* *”in the hotseat” -as it were- is the Earl of Warwick*
Marguerite: Milord Warwick, I warned you what would happen if you played us false.
Warwick: and I assure your Majesty that I have done no such thing.
Dorset: are we to believe that there was no prior agreement? That your nephew simply let London fall to the earl of March.
Warwick: he did not, Milord of Dorset, rather he fought bravely with what forces he had at his disposal. When he and his men were unable to hold London bridge, they set it and Southwark aflame in an attempt to prevent the earl’s forces from crossing.
Pembroke: but they did still cross.
Warwick: say what you mean, Milord of Pembroke. The time for veiled accusations is long past- don’t you think?
*the doors to the council room bang open* *Edward of Westminster strides in* *carrying Edward, 5th duke of Somerset, on his hip* *the little boy looks rather delighted at whatever Edward is saying to him* *then the prince of Wales deposits the three-year-old in the vacant seat*
Marguerite: *exasperatedly* Edward-
*both Edwards look at her at the mention of her name*
Edward of Westminster: *sotto voce to Somerset* she’s talking to me. *leans on back of chair and looks at his mother* yes, maman?
Marguerite: what are you doing?
Westminster: attending a council meeting that seems to have been called without inviting me, your Majesty *looks pointedly at his father* *Henry simply lowers his eyes* and since the duke of Somerset is the highest peer in the realm after our good selves *Pembroke and Richmond both seem to grasp the implications of this* it is only fitting that he should attend as well.
Richmond: *disgustedly* he is a child. A basta-
Westminster: *puts his hands over Somerset’s ears* that’s enough. *to guardsman at the door* captain, if you will please escort Milord Richmond back to his rooms until he can learn to keep a civil tongue in his head.
*the rest of the council looks surprised* *the captain comes forward* *Richmond throws the hand off*
Richmond: unhand me you filth *glares at guard* my God a peasant like you to a queen’s grandson!
Westminster: yes…a queen’s grandson. Not a king’s. *motions to guard to continue* *we hear Richmond being a typical 14-year-old sent to his room by a parent* *Westminster sits in Richmond’s chair* now…why is my dear father [in-law] not seated? *motions to him to sit down*
Dorset: we were discussing the treasonous correspondence of the Earl of Warwick with his son, the duke of Clarence.
Westminster: my brother of Clarence is well, I trust?
Dorset: *caught flat-footed* he offers terms for the earl of Warwick.
Westminster: what terms?
Warwick: in light of your Royal Highness’ approaching birthday, the duke of Clarence has written me offering to intercede with me with the earl of March for clemency should I return to their side[6].
Westminster: *nods amiably* and would you desert your grandson, milord? *makes Somerset laugh by pulling a silly face*
Warwick: it seems that Milords of Dorset and Pembroke regard my receiving this letter and presenting it to them as proof of my forfeiture of your Majesties’ trust.
Westminster: *to Marguerite* and has he forfeited your trust, Maman? He has received a letter and shown it to you. He did not disappear in the dead of night.
Marguerite: there is his nephew’s surrender of London to consider.
Westminster: *gets out of his chair and paces restlessly* that is his nephew’s behaviour. Not his. And as I understand it, Milord Bastard acquitted himself rather well with the means he had at his disposal. *turns witheringly on Dorset and Pembroke* the same, sadly, cannot be said of either of you, milords, who retreated from London when you merely heard that the York forces were approaching.
Dorset: we were looking to his Majesty’s safety, your Royal Highness.
Westminster: there were many who said you were looking to your own. *calmly* now…Milord Pembroke…you will return to Wales. You will rally as many men as you are able- tell them that their prince is requiring of their services once more.
Pembroke: my nephew, sir-
Westminster: he is young. He is forgiven. He will stay with me-
Pembroke: but I am responsible for him. Since his father died. We have seldom been parted-
Westminster: *royal tone* we would keep him here. With us.
Pembroke: *looks conflicted but finally bows in obedience*
Westminster: now, Milord Dorset…I trust you have no further aspersions to cast on *heavy tone* our most trustworthy father’s loyalties.
Dorset: none, sir.
Westminster: good. Then, Milord Warwick, you will write to my brother of Clarence-
*stunned silence at table*
Westminster: and you will offer him our terms.
*exterior* *Woodstock Palace* *we see Edward of Westminster arriving*
*interior* *Anne Neville- now visibly pregnant- is sitting near a window in her rooms* *she is having her portrait painted* *her sisters, Isabel, duchess of Clarence and Margaret Huddleston[7], are talking to her* *we can see Isabel’s levity is more forced[8]*
Page: his Royal Highness, the Prince of Wales.
*Isabel and Margaret both rise and curtsey as their brother-in-law enters* *they- and the painter- turn to leave*
Edward: Lady Huddleston, if you’ll be so kind as to close the door on your way out. This concerns Isabel too.
*Margaret looks sympathetically at her sister as she closes the door* *Anne takes her sister’s hand*
Edward: *puts finger under her chin and raises her head* nothing quite so drastic to merit such a face, dear sister. I’d not endanger the life of my son if it were.
*both Anne and Isabel look relieved*
Edward: George has written.
Isabel: *trying to play it cool* he is unharmed?
Edward: *irritatedly* certainly far less than your cousin of Fauconberg. I hear he’ll now look the pirate…with the eyepatch. *normal tone* although I must say…if I were the one holding him prisoner, he should be in the Tower’s dungeons and not living at L’Erber[9].
Anne: but that’s father’s house. George has no right to it.
Edward: your father is the one to whom George has written.
Anne: but why?
Edward: to make him a deal that would not see his head separated from his shoulders.
Isabel: your Royal Highness trusts that Edward will uphold it.
Edward: this Edward would. That Edward…well…I don’t trust him to do it. He’s played this role before. Offering clemency as a ruse de guerre[10]. After all…if his behaviour with Pembroke or Devon[11] is anything to go by, he would’ve beheaded Arundel and installed one of his own protégés as earl. Not allowed the earl’s son to succeed on promise that he would not take arms against him again.
Anne: and you believe that my cousin of Arundel will abide by that, Ned?
Edward: I’ve offered to make his daughter[12] a duchess by betrothing her to Somerset. I was unaware that the earl of March has any dukes up his sleeve aside from that poor miserable specimen that is his brother.
Anne: *lightly scolding* you shouldn’t be cruel about Crumplin like that, Ned.
Edward: your charity does your credit, Nanette[13]. But when he has called me a bastard, I suspect I am being too kind by half. *he throws himself on the bed* in fact…my kindness to your sister was called weakness earlier.
Isabel: to me, your Royal Highness?
Edward: I would return you to your husband’s loving arms. That’s what the wedding vows say, do they not? What God has so joined let no man set asunder?
Isabel: why?
Edward: gesture of good will. We will allow you to return to George. And in exchange, they are to give us Lords Clifford, Fauconberg, Ormonde and Wiltshire. Personally, I would hand over Richmond in exchange for his stepfather, but sadly, even George wrote back and said they don’t even want him.
*both women laugh*
Isabel: but I would have to leave Annie- and Madge.
Edward: *climbing off the bed* *walking over to the easel* for a little while, yes. Who knows…perhaps when we see one another again, you will both be the mother to an Edward.
Isabel: *looks conflicted*
Edward: *squints at the painting* *then looks at Anne* this looks nothing like you. *the nose is too long and the chin non-existent* *plus, she’s shown with straight fair hair instead of her curling more strawberry-blonde colour* when we win, I’ll ask my grandfather to send over a portraitist. Best in France. No…someone Italian- they know all sorts of new things- get a proper picture done of you. The way the Yorks describe me, one would believe I was a squash-faced, pot-bellied dwarf *the clearly not short or pot-bellied Ned bends over and kisses her pouty mouth tenderly, puts a protective hand on her belly*
*fade to black*
[1] The O nata lux text is taken from a 10th-century anonymous hymn that uses the concept of light to symbolise hope. The hymn is sung at Lauds on the feast of the Transfiguration (6 August)
[2] Mostly because the “roses” symbol is anachronistic. The black bull (symbol of Lionel of Antwerp, duke of Clarence), the black dragon (symbol of the earldom of Ulster) and the white lions (the Mortimer earldom of March, Richard II’s “chosen heir”) were used by the Yorks to underline the “primacy” of their claim
[3] “One of the finest houses in London” as a contemporary described it. The property of Warwick which later passed to his daughter, Isabel, duchess of Clarence
[4] Nephew of the Kingmaker
[5] I read that this was an (affectionate) nickname used by Clarence and the Nevilles (where he was brought up) for Richard III. It means one who is “small in stature and crooked of appearance”
[6] Clarence did this OTL
[7] The Kingmaker’s bastard daughter, married to Richard Huddleston sometime between 1464 and the Nevilles’ departure for France. Huddleston himself was the heir to his father, the 9e Lord Millom. However, sadly, he predeceased his father- possibly dying at Bosworth. Margaret was certainly in Anne’s household when she became queen, and given her “closeness” would be a prime candidate for a post like the later mistress of the robes
[8] There seems to be very little evidence to support the popular depictions of George, duke of Clarence as a an abusive drunkard. In fact, all things considered, he and Isabel seem to have had a – for the time – reasonably contented marriage. It’s worth noting that he’s the only one of his brothers to have fathered no bastards or kept a mistress. And his reaction after her death OTL suggests someone genuinely mad with grief at the loss and looking for someone to blame.
[9] Warwick’s townhouse in London that George and Isabel inherited
[10] Edward IV lured both Robert Dymoke's father (Thomas Dymoke) and the 8e Baron Welles (Dymoke's uncle) from Westminster Abbey with the promise of a pardon
[11] Two earldoms were Edward IV awarded the lands to his supporters
[12] This would be Margaret FitzAlan. How committed Edward of Westminster is to this betrothal is debatable, but at the same time, he's right about the fact that the only "duke" Edward IV has readily available, is the duke of Gloucester. The Lancasters, by contrast, have both the duke of Somerset and George Neville (who hasn't been deprived of the dukedom of Bedford yet) in reserve.
[13] From a contemporary description of Anne: seemly, amiable and beauteous, and in conditions full commendable and right virtuous and, according to the interpretation of her name, Anne, full gracious.
thank you. I included the portrait-painting scene because most period novels that portray Anne Neville show her as a pasty-faced, "plain" brunette. Contemporary- or near contemporary, but potentially copied from originals- describe her as I did above. She had red hair (like her mom, but paler), blue or green eyes. Her nose was smaller than several of her aunts and uncles, including her OTL mother-in-law, Cecily Neville, despite the Neville tendency towards "large noses". It also wasn't "upturned" like Cecily or Edward IV's were both described as being. She had a small pouty mouth. The one "fault" in her appearance (aside from being a redhead) was a Neville trait of a "weak chin".
^from the Eton Chapel Wall Paintings, a potential contemporary portrayal of Anne Neville, wearing the Crown of Queen Edith^
It certainly bears a stronger resemblance to her portrayal in the Rous Roll than to an existing portrait of either Elizabeth Wydeville or Elizabeth of York.
Another theory- not entirely impossible given the religious/civil turmoil of the centuries to follow- is that the depiction below may have been based on a contemporary portrait/depiction that sadly did not survive. However, that depends which "description" of this portrayal is accurate, since I've seen the portrait below catalogued as "Isabelle d'Angoulême" and "Anne of Bohemia". The first is ruled out by the fact that she holds the Garter in her hand. Leaving it between the two Anne's. If Anne of Bohemia, the lack of ermine (as would befit an emperor's daughter who is also a queen) seems strange. The colouring is a later addition, so we'll chalk the absence of purple up to that as well.
But, based on the description of Anne Neville?
High forehead (check)
Small (straight) nose and mouth (check)
"weak chin" (check)
Big eyes (check)
In short, the oft-portrayed "mean girls" relationship between the Neville sisters and Elizabeth Wydeville could've had a very "high school aspect" to it: the clichéd cliquishness of pretty girls who don't like other pretty girls because they're competition. Certainly, if Warwick had had ambitions for his daughters marrying Edward or his brothers, he would've known the king's taste, and realized it was a lost cause if his daughters had "faces as plain as cooking pots".
Again, this is hopeless speculation, but I'd like to think that, in the looks department, the Neville girls could more than hold their own
But, based on the description of Anne Neville?
High forehead (check)
Small (straight) nose and mouth (check)
"weak chin" (check)
Big eyes (check)
In short, the oft-portrayed "mean girls" relationship between the Neville sisters and Elizabeth Wydeville could've had a very "high school aspect" to it: the clichéd cliquishness of pretty girls who don't like other pretty girls because they're competition. Certainly, if Warwick had had ambitions for his daughters marrying Edward or his brothers, he would've known the king's taste, and realized it was a lost cause if his daughters had "faces as plain as cooking pots".
Again, this is hopeless speculation, but I'd like to think that, in the looks department, the Neville girls could more than hold their own
Another (potential) contemporary depiction, often mislabeled as Jacquetta of Luxembourg, however, I'm inclined to believe the alternate catalogue of "Marguerite d'Anjou". The royal ermine on her dress front would hardly be accorded to Jacquetta- the daughter of a count and wife of a (royal) duke- for one. And for another, the detail on the sleeves is fleurs-de-lis, which as a princess of France, Marguerite would've had the right to wear (the symbol of Luxemburg is a lion). More evidence is what looks like clouds (or a fertilized egg) on the sleeves: daisies (marguerites). These stylized flowers were also the symbol of another Marguerite (Countess of Flanders), as attested in tile-remains found in her rooms in the Tour Jean-sans-Peur in Paris.
For all the French history buffs out there like @Brita @material_boy I was wondering something I hope you could help me with:
Was Saint Jeanne de Valois' "inability" to have children pre-ordained (i.e. was she born with it) or was it developmental?
From what I can find on her, she's described as "petite", with "a limp". However, Anne of Brittany and Claude de France, duchesse de Lorraine both had limps as well. Neither prevented them from having children. And as to "petite", while that could imply she was stooped, Anne of Brittany's daughter had the same spinal problem as Richard III- again, didn't stop her from having kids.
Far from the typical assertion that Louis XI married her to Orléans to ensure the "extinction" of the rival branch, it was actually not unlike how Louis XII married Claude to François: Louis XI had concerns about leaving a surviving son, so he married Jeanne to Orléans to ensure that he would be able to influence the upbringing of his heir (should he have no surviving son). This seems to imply that a marriage between a "horrible limping deformed creature" (as she's often portrayed in historical fiction) would run completely counter to his plans.
In short, I was wondering if Jeanne's "health concerns" are butterfliable (even if she's born pre-POD, most of our knowledge of her begins in 1469-1471) or not
Was Saint Jeanne de Valois' "inability" to have children pre-ordained (i.e. was she born with it) or was it developmental?
From what I can find on her, she's described as "petite", with "a limp". However, Anne of Brittany and Claude de France, duchesse de Lorraine both had limps as well. Neither prevented them from having children. And as to "petite", while that could imply she was stooped, Anne of Brittany's daughter had the same spinal problem as Richard III- again, didn't stop her from having kids.
Far from the typical assertion that Louis XI married her to Orléans to ensure the "extinction" of the rival branch, it was actually not unlike how Louis XII married Claude to François: Louis XI had concerns about leaving a surviving son, so he married Jeanne to Orléans to ensure that he would be able to influence the upbringing of his heir (should he have no surviving son). This seems to imply that a marriage between a "horrible limping deformed creature" (as she's often portrayed in historical fiction) would run completely counter to his plans.
In short, I was wondering if Jeanne's "health concerns" are butterfliable (even if she's born pre-POD, most of our knowledge of her begins in 1469-1471) or not
We're not sure - there's no concrete source about that. for all we know, the "Jeanne didn't have kids because she was deformed" idea might have been a lie made up by Louis XII to annul his marriage to Jeanne so he could marry Anne of Brittany.
Second what @eliamartin65 said. Joan protested Louis's charges that she was too deformed to reproduce, which seems like quite the limb for a woman to go out on -- contradicting her husband, who is the king -- if it were actually true. I think it's more likely that the two just had an unhappy marriage, one which he wanted annul when it became politically convenient to take another bride. But really, no one can say one way or the other.
Personally I’ve always wondered if Jeanne had some form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome - it would explain both why she was supposed to be infertile (no signs of puberty by age 12? Very questionable) and why she is described as ‘petite’. Also scoliosis is more prevalent in people with ts than in the general population, hence a curvature to her back
Another theory- not entirely impossible given the religious/civil turmoil of the centuries to follow- is that the depiction below may have been based on a contemporary portrait/depiction that sadly did not survive. However, that depends which "description" of this portrayal is accurate, since I've seen the portrait below catalogued as "Isabelle d'Angoulême" and "Anne of Bohemia". The first is ruled out by the fact that she holds the Garter in her hand. Leaving it between the two Anne's. If Anne of Bohemia, the lack of ermine (as would befit an emperor's daughter who is also a queen) seems strange. The colouring is a later addition, so we'll chalk the absence of purple up to that as well.
But, based on the description of Anne Neville?
High forehead (check)
Small (straight) nose and mouth (check)
"weak chin" (check)
Big eyes (check)
In short, the oft-portrayed "mean girls" relationship between the Neville sisters and Elizabeth Wydeville could've had a very "high school aspect" to it: the clichéd cliquishness of pretty girls who don't like other pretty girls because they're competition. Certainly, if Warwick had had ambitions for his daughters marrying Edward or his brothers, he would've known the king's taste, and realized it was a lost cause if his daughters had "faces as plain as cooking pots".
Again, this is hopeless speculation, but I'd like to think that, in the looks department, the Neville girls could more than hold their own
Sadly I think both of these portraits are little more than stylized Victorian ideas of the late medieval era…imho they say less about the actual, historical figure depicted and more about 1840s or 1850s perceptions of themAnother (potential) contemporary depiction, often mislabeled as Jacquetta of Luxembourg, however, I'm inclined to believe the alternate catalogue of "Marguerite d'Anjou". The royal ermine on her dress front would hardly be accorded to Jacquetta- the daughter of a count and wife of a (royal) duke- for one. And for another, the detail on the sleeves is fleurs-de-lis, which as a princess of France, Marguerite would've had the right to wear (the symbol of Luxemburg is a lion). More evidence is what looks like clouds (or a fertilized egg) on the sleeves: daisies (marguerites). These stylized flowers were also the symbol of another Marguerite (Countess of Flanders), as attested in tile-remains found in her rooms in the Tour Jean-sans-Peur in Paris.