thank you. I was thinking of Kerleau further "troubling" the waters by proposing Marie of Burgundy- since Charles de Guienne is now caught in an ambiguous situation: he's obligated (as condition of his election) to marry Ludmila of Podiebrady- as a compromise for Brittany. Part of me wonders how Louis XI would regard such a match up though
The Pale and the Purple Rose
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
Marrying a troublemaker like Charles of Berry does NOT sound fun - either for poor Marie of Burgundy or for Ludimila. He's the French George of Clarence too
.TBH, the girl's been offered to the duke of Bavaria, that engagement was broken, then she was offered to a Hungarian magnate. Broken. Then back to Bavaria. Broken. Then Wlad Bene was supposed to marry her. Broken. After Bavaria gets broken off the second time, I'd have decided it was God's will for me to remain single and entered a monastery. Or run off with the first person who would actually marry meMarrying a troublemaker like Charles of Berry does NOT sound fun - either for poor Marie of Burgundy or for Ludimila. He's the French George of Clarence too
OOOUCH. I pity her even more now.
She's better off with Berry than in a nunnery TBH.
Well, this way she would be married and get a Crown… Without doubt better than her OTL fate (and true who Berry was a troublemaker but he was nowhere near to be the worst among his siblings IMHO…)
This is probably a daft question, given that it's still early days, but could a Valois ruling Bohemia see Hussites/traditions about religion migrating to France? Not saying that Charles VIII or his successors will go Hussite instead of Catholic, but figure there'd perhaps be a crossflow between Paris and Prague that Huss might have an influence on Calvin and other French reformers.
Plus, how awesome would it be to see the French army trying to psych the Imperial army out singing "Vous qui êtes les Combatants de Dieu" (French translation of the Czech Ktož jsú Boží bojovníci) to the German's Ein' Feste Burg ist unser Gott.
Plus, how awesome would it be to see the French army trying to psych the Imperial army out singing "Vous qui êtes les Combatants de Dieu" (French translation of the Czech Ktož jsú Boží bojovníci) to the German's Ein' Feste Burg ist unser Gott.
Even accounting for inaccuracies, I thought you all would enjoy this depiction of Edward IV-Elizabeth Wydeville. Here's hoping they make one of Marguerite d'Anjou or Anne Neville (I don't know if they could do one of Edward of Westminster, if portraits/physical descriptions of him exist)
On The Spanish Succession
Soundtrack: Canciero de Montecassino - Viva, viva rey Ferrando, canción, CM. 111
August 1471
*exterior* *somewhere in the south of England* *we see Edward of Westminster fighting against the Yorkists*
*exterior* *Windsor* *King Henry and Queen Marguerite are walking in the Quadrangle when a messenger arrives for them* *messenger dismounts from his horse, bows and offers them a box*
Messenger: from the Prince of Wales, your Majesties[1]. *opens box before them*
*cut to the view of the box* *there's a bloody banner in it* *King Henry puts his hand on it* *pulls it out of the box* *it's a standard* *as it unfurls, something falls out* *it flutters to show that it's the "standard" of the Cinque Ports*
Messenger: *picks up what fell out* *it's the head of the 9th earl of Arundel[2]* his Highness wishes for your Majesty to know that he is well, they have taken Arundel Castle, and that all of the south west of England is now under your obedience once more.
Marguerite: *to the head of Arundel* I suppose that makes my son the new earl of Arundel then[3]
*cut to Valencia, Spain* *we see Cardinal Borgia disembarking at the city's port* *then a procession through the streets to the cathedral, amidst the cheering crowds[4]* *he's met at the doors to the cathedral by King Juan and Fernando, King of Sicily*
*cut to interior of the Capilla del Santo Cáliz[5]* *the men are at prayers* *followed by a shot of the three walking in the cathedral*
Juan II, King of Aragon: your Eminence, we trust that you will report to the Holy Father our joy at his recovery.
Borgia: I will do so gladly. Although I cannot help but wonder if your Majesty's joy at his recovery is perhaps also encouraged by him refusing to grant the dispensation in order that the king of Castile's daughter will be unable to marry the king of Portugal's son.
Juan II: *assumes a look of injured innocence*
Borgia: your Majesty's interests are the same as mine. I do not wish to see a Portuguese ruled Iberia any more than your Majesty does.
Juan II: then we are agreed.
Borgia: only so far as that is concerned. Your Majesty's behaviour towards your nephew, the king of Naples is hardly becoming. It certainly does not accord well with someone so benefitting from the Holy Father's kindness.
Fernando: my cousin is a bastard.
Borgia: he is the king of Naples, all the same, your Majesty
Fernando: his Holiness is a Venetian. Why would he block my father's attempts to recover what my cousin stole from him.
Borgia: because...thanks to the sultan...his Holiness finds it necessary that Aragon and Naples stand united against the Mohammedans. Should the sultan wish for next season's campaign to strike at Italy...what good would it do if there is an Aragonese army in Naples that has common cause with the Musselmans?
Juan II: your Eminence talks as if we would ally ourselves with the heretics against our nephew.
Borgia: have you not already allied with the emir of Granada against the king of Castile?
Juan II: that is for defensive purposes only, sir. And the king of Castile does the same against us-
Borgia: *raises finger to the ceiling* and will that be your excuse on the day of judgement, your Majesty? That I was not alone in allying with the Turks or the Granadans? Then you shall stand alone, and I fear that cowering behind excuses of others telling you to behave suchly will buy you no favour.
Fernando: *sardonically* but hearing your Eminence's scheme out will?
Borgia: *makes a smile like "of course"*
Juan II: *tiredly* what is your scheme, murrano.
Borgia: the king of France is willing to endorse the recall of the duke of Anjou’s forces from Barcelona.
Fernando: and knowing the French king, he will demand a price-
Borgia: your Majesty drops you daughter’s suit to the duke of Brittany.
Juan II: that price is rather steep.
Borgia: and he’s willing to endorse your son’s match to king of Castile’s daughter.
Fernando: *angrily* she’s a bastard.
Borgia: she's a bastard, so's your cousin in Naples, and I can tell your Majesty that your late brother[6] likely said the same of you.
Juan II: and how does my son marrying her help things?
Borgia: why bother with sending an army to subdue Castile if one can inherit it with no struggle at all?
Juan II: which begs my question- you wish peace between my nephew in Naples and I, you wish peace between Aragon and Castile-
Borgia: and I wish for peace between France and Aragon, as unlikely as that seems.
Fernando: and I wish that I pissed gold ducats, but we can’t always have what we wish for.
Borgia: *to Fernando* your Majesty, imagine the pain each time you attempted to pass water. –the threat from the sultan cannot be ignored. It suits Christendom’s purposes ill to be at one another’s throats when there is a wolf outside the sheepfold.
Juan II: his Holiness wishes for a Crusade then?
Borgia: not a crusade. But he does wish to avoid…unseasonal conflict…should the need arise. And both Naples and Hungary are parts in that schema.
Juan II: what does Hungary have to do with it?
Borgia: now that his brother is the king of Bohemia, it seems the king of France has discovered an interest in growing his…network…on the far side of Europe. He has offered his niece, Princess Anna[7], for either the king of Poland or his son, the king of Hungary.
Fernando: King Mattias is not the king of Poland’s son.
Borgia: *sly smile* a slip of the tongue, your Majesty…I must’ve misunderstood what Cardinal Vitez[8] wrote.
Juan II: I thought the king of France wishes for Anna to become the king of Castile’s new wife?
Borgia: the king of France has wished her to be the wife of Prince Edward, the queen of Castile, the duchess of Brittany and now the queen of Hungary…one can be forgiven for not being able to keep track.
Fernando: you do, your Eminence.
Borgia: *dawning look on his face* why so I do. –however, one can understand how another French match in Hungary would render his Holiness’ plans for an alliance of a strong Iberia, Naples and Hungary, against the Turks, completely unworkable.
Juan II: you wish for my daughter to take the Savoie girl’s place?
Borgia: well, the alternative would be your niece- *searching for a name* Beatrice, is it?- becoming queen of Hungary.
*neither of the other men look impressed by this idea*
Fernando: what of Anna then? She becomes duchess of Brittany?
Borgia: or queen of Castile. I’m afraid the dispensation his Holiness issued to allow that match is already beyond recall.
Juan II: consider your words, Borja. If she marries the king of Castile and produces a son, then that renders this alliance for my son useless!
Borgia: *idly fingering his rosary* not at all. The king of Castile’s daughter is still a child of nine. Not even St. Peter himself would allow such a marriage to be consummated immediately. If…in that time…the king of Castile were to father a son…to have the betrothal undone would be no matter- Princess Anna is a case in point. –but in the event that the king of Castile were to leave no issue, your Majesty *looks at Fernando* will be able to claim rule over the larger two thirds of Spain.
Juan II: he could do it anyway. If she’s a bastard then she has no more right to the throne than your own son[9] will have to follow you as bishop of Valencia- and the next male Trastamaras are the Aragonese line
Borgia: but then your Majesty will have to fight to win. I offer you the means of obtaining it peaceably.- or mostly peaceably, anyway. *parting shot as he bows* the duke of Anjou’s armies can be out of Aragon by All Saints[10] and your daughter as queen of Hungary instead of a mere duchess.
*fade out on Fernando looking like he is weighing the options as Borgia sweeps out of the cathedral*
[1] I know @vvd pointed out that the "majesty" style wasn't used pre-Tudors, but this is simply to differentiate
[2] Edward IV's Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports (also married to Warwick's sister and notorious for "dragging his feet")
[3] this was "formalized" under Henry VI that whoever held Arundel Castle was automatically "earl of Arundel"
[4] Borgia is both bishop of Valencia and the pope's emissary. It's not unthinkable that he would "pull out the stops" and splash the cash for this
[5] Chapel of the Holy Grail. In 1436, King Juan's brother, Alfonso V, presented a chalice to the cathedral, believed by many to be the Holy Grail
[6] Carlos, Prince of Viana
[7] Of Savoie (OTL duchess of Apulia)
[8] at the beginning of 1471, Pope Paul II created and did not publish four more cardinals: János Vitéz, archbishop of Esztergom, Hungary (among others). However, by the time of Sixtus IV's first consistory in December 1471, Vitéz was already under arrest/suspicion of treason by Matyas Corvinus
[9] Pedro Luis Borja, duque de Gandia
[10] 1 November
August 1471
*exterior* *somewhere in the south of England* *we see Edward of Westminster fighting against the Yorkists*
*exterior* *Windsor* *King Henry and Queen Marguerite are walking in the Quadrangle when a messenger arrives for them* *messenger dismounts from his horse, bows and offers them a box*
Messenger: from the Prince of Wales, your Majesties[1]. *opens box before them*
*cut to the view of the box* *there's a bloody banner in it* *King Henry puts his hand on it* *pulls it out of the box* *it's a standard* *as it unfurls, something falls out* *it flutters to show that it's the "standard" of the Cinque Ports*
Messenger: *picks up what fell out* *it's the head of the 9th earl of Arundel[2]* his Highness wishes for your Majesty to know that he is well, they have taken Arundel Castle, and that all of the south west of England is now under your obedience once more.
Marguerite: *to the head of Arundel* I suppose that makes my son the new earl of Arundel then[3]
*cut to Valencia, Spain* *we see Cardinal Borgia disembarking at the city's port* *then a procession through the streets to the cathedral, amidst the cheering crowds[4]* *he's met at the doors to the cathedral by King Juan and Fernando, King of Sicily*
*cut to interior of the Capilla del Santo Cáliz[5]* *the men are at prayers* *followed by a shot of the three walking in the cathedral*
Juan II, King of Aragon: your Eminence, we trust that you will report to the Holy Father our joy at his recovery.
Borgia: I will do so gladly. Although I cannot help but wonder if your Majesty's joy at his recovery is perhaps also encouraged by him refusing to grant the dispensation in order that the king of Castile's daughter will be unable to marry the king of Portugal's son.
Juan II: *assumes a look of injured innocence*
Borgia: your Majesty's interests are the same as mine. I do not wish to see a Portuguese ruled Iberia any more than your Majesty does.
Juan II: then we are agreed.
Borgia: only so far as that is concerned. Your Majesty's behaviour towards your nephew, the king of Naples is hardly becoming. It certainly does not accord well with someone so benefitting from the Holy Father's kindness.
Fernando: my cousin is a bastard.
Borgia: he is the king of Naples, all the same, your Majesty
Fernando: his Holiness is a Venetian. Why would he block my father's attempts to recover what my cousin stole from him.
Borgia: because...thanks to the sultan...his Holiness finds it necessary that Aragon and Naples stand united against the Mohammedans. Should the sultan wish for next season's campaign to strike at Italy...what good would it do if there is an Aragonese army in Naples that has common cause with the Musselmans?
Juan II: your Eminence talks as if we would ally ourselves with the heretics against our nephew.
Borgia: have you not already allied with the emir of Granada against the king of Castile?
Juan II: that is for defensive purposes only, sir. And the king of Castile does the same against us-
Borgia: *raises finger to the ceiling* and will that be your excuse on the day of judgement, your Majesty? That I was not alone in allying with the Turks or the Granadans? Then you shall stand alone, and I fear that cowering behind excuses of others telling you to behave suchly will buy you no favour.
Fernando: *sardonically* but hearing your Eminence's scheme out will?
Borgia: *makes a smile like "of course"*
Juan II: *tiredly* what is your scheme, murrano.
Borgia: the king of France is willing to endorse the recall of the duke of Anjou’s forces from Barcelona.
Fernando: and knowing the French king, he will demand a price-
Borgia: your Majesty drops you daughter’s suit to the duke of Brittany.
Juan II: that price is rather steep.
Borgia: and he’s willing to endorse your son’s match to king of Castile’s daughter.
Fernando: *angrily* she’s a bastard.
Borgia: she's a bastard, so's your cousin in Naples, and I can tell your Majesty that your late brother[6] likely said the same of you.
Juan II: and how does my son marrying her help things?
Borgia: why bother with sending an army to subdue Castile if one can inherit it with no struggle at all?
Juan II: which begs my question- you wish peace between my nephew in Naples and I, you wish peace between Aragon and Castile-
Borgia: and I wish for peace between France and Aragon, as unlikely as that seems.
Fernando: and I wish that I pissed gold ducats, but we can’t always have what we wish for.
Borgia: *to Fernando* your Majesty, imagine the pain each time you attempted to pass water. –the threat from the sultan cannot be ignored. It suits Christendom’s purposes ill to be at one another’s throats when there is a wolf outside the sheepfold.
Juan II: his Holiness wishes for a Crusade then?
Borgia: not a crusade. But he does wish to avoid…unseasonal conflict…should the need arise. And both Naples and Hungary are parts in that schema.
Juan II: what does Hungary have to do with it?
Borgia: now that his brother is the king of Bohemia, it seems the king of France has discovered an interest in growing his…network…on the far side of Europe. He has offered his niece, Princess Anna[7], for either the king of Poland or his son, the king of Hungary.
Fernando: King Mattias is not the king of Poland’s son.
Borgia: *sly smile* a slip of the tongue, your Majesty…I must’ve misunderstood what Cardinal Vitez[8] wrote.
Juan II: I thought the king of France wishes for Anna to become the king of Castile’s new wife?
Borgia: the king of France has wished her to be the wife of Prince Edward, the queen of Castile, the duchess of Brittany and now the queen of Hungary…one can be forgiven for not being able to keep track.
Fernando: you do, your Eminence.
Borgia: *dawning look on his face* why so I do. –however, one can understand how another French match in Hungary would render his Holiness’ plans for an alliance of a strong Iberia, Naples and Hungary, against the Turks, completely unworkable.
Juan II: you wish for my daughter to take the Savoie girl’s place?
Borgia: well, the alternative would be your niece- *searching for a name* Beatrice, is it?- becoming queen of Hungary.
*neither of the other men look impressed by this idea*
Fernando: what of Anna then? She becomes duchess of Brittany?
Borgia: or queen of Castile. I’m afraid the dispensation his Holiness issued to allow that match is already beyond recall.
Juan II: consider your words, Borja. If she marries the king of Castile and produces a son, then that renders this alliance for my son useless!
Borgia: *idly fingering his rosary* not at all. The king of Castile’s daughter is still a child of nine. Not even St. Peter himself would allow such a marriage to be consummated immediately. If…in that time…the king of Castile were to father a son…to have the betrothal undone would be no matter- Princess Anna is a case in point. –but in the event that the king of Castile were to leave no issue, your Majesty *looks at Fernando* will be able to claim rule over the larger two thirds of Spain.
Juan II: he could do it anyway. If she’s a bastard then she has no more right to the throne than your own son[9] will have to follow you as bishop of Valencia- and the next male Trastamaras are the Aragonese line
Borgia: but then your Majesty will have to fight to win. I offer you the means of obtaining it peaceably.- or mostly peaceably, anyway. *parting shot as he bows* the duke of Anjou’s armies can be out of Aragon by All Saints[10] and your daughter as queen of Hungary instead of a mere duchess.
*fade out on Fernando looking like he is weighing the options as Borgia sweeps out of the cathedral*
[1] I know @vvd pointed out that the "majesty" style wasn't used pre-Tudors, but this is simply to differentiate
[2] Edward IV's Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports (also married to Warwick's sister and notorious for "dragging his feet")
[3] this was "formalized" under Henry VI that whoever held Arundel Castle was automatically "earl of Arundel"
[4] Borgia is both bishop of Valencia and the pope's emissary. It's not unthinkable that he would "pull out the stops" and splash the cash for this
[5] Chapel of the Holy Grail. In 1436, King Juan's brother, Alfonso V, presented a chalice to the cathedral, believed by many to be the Holy Grail
[6] Carlos, Prince of Viana
[7] Of Savoie (OTL duchess of Apulia)
[8] at the beginning of 1471, Pope Paul II created and did not publish four more cardinals: János Vitéz, archbishop of Esztergom, Hungary (among others). However, by the time of Sixtus IV's first consistory in December 1471, Vitéz was already under arrest/suspicion of treason by Matyas Corvinus
[9] Pedro Luis Borja, duque de Gandia
[10] 1 November
fantastic chapter, which I say is wonderful, especially the part in Aragon, truly a small masterpiece, you made Rodrigo truly a clever piece of ....💩, as well as making his speech with Ferdinand and Juan seem truly almost real, as if from at any moment they could almost touch each other, to the comment about the Pope who is Venetian and therefore shouldn't defend a Neapolitan bastard, I was literally dying of laughter 😂🤣
Very interesting! Juana and Ferdinand as rulers of Spain is certainly an idea… Hopefully with less inquisition
thank you. I hope they can "live and let live" as well, however unlikely it may seem. Borgia giving them a common enemy (the Turks) does likely make them little more than allies of convenience though.
I unfortunately can't take credit for what was already there
mille grazie
it was too good an opportunity to pass up given what you mentioned about the Neapolitans and Venetians being rivals
quite possibly less/no inquisition. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the Castilian Inquisition was pretty much dead (or at least very lethargic) when Isabel la Catolica became queen. Mostly because the previous kings of Castile had spent a lot of time and effort trying to bring it under their control as otherwise, it was a potential fifth column in the kingdom. Then Isabel saw the Aragonese Inquisition at work and exported it to Castile (apparently, against Fernando el Catolico's advice*), and became the fearsome "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" of history. It stands to reason that a) no Isabel and b) Juana having a very different religious education, it will certainly not become the OTL variant.
thank you. I hope they can "live and let live" as well, however unlikely it may seem. Borgia giving them a common enemy (the Turks) does likely make them little more than allies of convenience though.
I unfortunately can't take credit for what was already there
mille grazie
it was too good an opportunity to pass up given what you mentioned about the Neapolitans and Venetians being rivals
quite possibly less/no inquisition. As I've mentioned elsewhere, the Castilian Inquisition was pretty much dead (or at least very lethargic) when Isabel la Catolica became queen. Mostly because the previous kings of Castile had spent a lot of time and effort trying to bring it under their control as otherwise, it was a potential fifth column in the kingdom. Then Isabel saw the Aragonese Inquisition at work and exported it to Castile (apparently, against Fernando el Catolico's advice*), and became the fearsome "nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" of history. It stands to reason that a) no Isabel and b) Juana having a very different religious education, it will certainly not become the OTL variant.
well this means that the inquisition would be quite in the norm of other Otl Catholic countries, basically used exclusively for important cases and only with the approval of Rome, so no extreme royal control ( which is a good thing, considering what happened Otl ), barring a serious crisis, it would not have obtained the reputation of Otl
anyway the quote part of the rivalry between Venice and Naples were still a very welcome and fun surprise, because it makes us understand a little how it was really difficult to understand these small details abroad, and only those who were truly interested in our local politics could understand them and use them to their advantage ( so that's another plus to your story )
P.S
I don't want to be picky, forgive me, but it is more correct to say sounds like it " grazie mille " not mille grazie, ok 😇😅 ( However, it's a insignificant mistake ) , but I really appreciate the effort of trying to use Italian to answer me 😉
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knew I should've paid more attention in my Italian class at varsity 😳
AFAIK, only Portugal and Burgundy had Inquisitions, well, outside of Rome. ISTR that Henri II did want to start a French one but the pope wasn't thrilled about the idea. And the idea never caught on in England either.
this is because Henry II wanted to base it on the Spanish method, a proposal that Rome completely abhorred, in the rest of the countries the " inquisition " existed but only as an independent ecclesiastical tribunal ( most of the time minor and at a local level ) furthermore it could be convened in a specific place only after papal authorization, so it came under the lens of popular attention only when something really big happened, furthermore it is important to remember that the idea that we associate with it is of Spanish derivation, which was very centralized as an institution compared to its minor foreign counterparts, so without Sixtus IV ceding this power to the Spanish monarchs, it is highly probable that the Inquisition remains a set of bodies, specialized personnel and methods, all different from each other
sorry for the stupid question, but can anyone point me to a breakdown of which Neville sister got what? All I can find online when I try to find out what Isabel or Anne's shares were, is the same tired lines about how their mother was declared legally dead and fled to an abbey (and then was released into Anne's custody).
Also, was Anne's share different when she married Edward of Westminster to when she married Richard of Gloucester? I could certainly believe that in the former instance, as wife to the prince of Wales, she'd have had the Lordship of Glamorgan (and Cardiff Castle) settled on her. However, Edward IV wouldn't want a challenge to his son's rule in Wales, and the lordship of Glamorgan was in the possession of Isabel when she died (after which it went to Anne rather than her son for some reason).
@RedKing @Tudorfan @Gwrtheyrn Annwn @FalconHonour @HortenseMancini @isabella @BlueFlowwer (with your Ricardian expertise)
Also, was Anne's share different when she married Edward of Westminster to when she married Richard of Gloucester? I could certainly believe that in the former instance, as wife to the prince of Wales, she'd have had the Lordship of Glamorgan (and Cardiff Castle) settled on her. However, Edward IV wouldn't want a challenge to his son's rule in Wales, and the lordship of Glamorgan was in the possession of Isabel when she died (after which it went to Anne rather than her son for some reason).
@RedKing @Tudorfan @Gwrtheyrn Annwn @FalconHonour @HortenseMancini @isabella @BlueFlowwer (with your Ricardian expertise)
It wouldn't have been different, because the division wasn't drawn up until 1473, after Anne married Richard.On my phone tonight, but when I'm on my laptop tomorrow, I'll dig up my old uni notes on the matter and see what I can find.