The Oranje Child (Queen Mary II TL)
- Thread starter Gajah_Nusantara
- Start date
No those flags aren't Jacobites flag but it was designed like the British flag but the main nations being Scotland and Ireland and conbine making it like that.
If you have another one I would like to change, just say so
If you have another one I would like to change, just say so
A good tip is to look at flags from that actual timeframe and the symbols they use. Plus look up why flags and arms use the colours they do.
Well this flag is a new one.. it's mixes the flag of the Cromwells with its Scottish & English shield and the flag of white, green and red means the White as liberty, Green as fertility of the land and red means the republic built over blood
But that's a rather anachronistic way of creating flags.
Flags of that time are based on the colours and designs of national or prominent arms and saints banners.
Tricolours became popular due to the success of the republican Dutch and later even more republican French.
The meaning of the colours were essentially post facto. Ante facto the Dutch tricolour was the colours of the Prince of Orange, the French was the Parisian banner with an added white stripe.
If the British Republic is emulating both Cromwell and the Netherlands then I could see a colour altered Dutch tricolour with a shield rather than then French one you show but even then green is unlikely to be chosen.
Otherwise I'd assume a flag of English and Scottish quarters; perhaps bearing whatever symbol the republican forces are using - whether that's the arms of their leader or whatever.
Sorry guys for the long wait. School stuff and my freaking files just disappeared! So I think I'm gonna upload either tomorrow or in the weekend
I mean later this week
I mean later this week
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Chapter VII.2: The Second English Civil War (Ireland)
Banner of the Irish Jacobites
"The War in Ireland will decide the fate of Europe"
- King William III upon hearing the siege of Derry
Richard Talbot, Earl of Tyrconnell, fervont Jacobite and proud Irishman declared the Kingdom of Ireland on Christmas of 1684, mere months after leaving the London after a disagreement with Charles Erskine and his faction of Jacobites. He declared himself as Lord Regent of Ireland and crowned in absentia the posthumous son of James York, Prince James Francis Edward Stuart as King James of Ireland. He quickly started major reforms in the kingdom starting from the military, the appointment of more Catholics and the major resignations of Protestant officers, this'll have implications later on the war. His other major reforms were the cultural reforms where he reintroduced the Irish language, culture into the nation. He appointed Patrick Sarsfield, Earl of Lucan as Marshall of the Realm and Charles Leslie as High Steward and Chief Propagandist [1]. Talbot was aided by them as they were the leading Jacobites of his faction in Ireland.
The Irish Triumvirate
Richard Talbot, Lord Regent (left), Patrick Sarsfield, Marshall of the Realm (center), Charles Leslie, High Steward (right)
There were of course major opposition in the form of the Irish Loyalists. The Irish Loyalists itself is divided into two, The Protestant Loyalists of Ulster and The Irish Loyalists of Leinster. Ulster Loyalists were Protestants who had loyalty to Queen Anne and her regime and feared living under a fervent and zealous Catholic leader such as Talbot (which seems odd as Charles Leslie was himself an Irish Protestant). They're led by one Henry Montgomery, Earl of Mount Alexander, a descendant of the original Ulster-Scot families in Ulster. Because of the policies of Talbot there were many former disgruntled Protestant officers and so they formed their own militia, The Royal Ulster Militia under the leadership of one Ronald MacDonald, a 40-year-old former officer of the army [2].
Meanwhile the southern and more Catholic Irish Loyalists of Ulster were mainly comprised of people either who had loyalties to the English crown, merchants who think that staying in England would provide more trade and clergymen who think reconciliation with England was possible and an independent Ireland would be disastrous in the long run. They were led by the Archbishop of Dublin, Peter Talbot, brother of the Lord Regent, Richard Talbot. He was one of the clergymen who thinks that it would be disastrous an independent Ireland would be because he predicted their defeat and he was felt a sense of loyalty and debt to the crown because his life was spared thanks to his friend King Charles II, his brother James York and the efforts of the Princess Anne that saved him from execution during the Popish Plot [3].
The Leaders of the Irish Loyalists
Peter Talbot, Archbishop of Dublin (left), Henry Montgomery, Earl of Mount Alexander (center), Commander Ronald MacDonald (right)
The English originally wanted the famed commander John Churchill to lead the invasion of Ireland but that plan changed because of the dire straits in Europe where the French had marched further into Austrian Netherlands and consolidated control over Lorraine and Catalonia and so King William III had moved him to Europe and so they started to find a replacement for him. Several candidates emerged such as, the English Jacobite Henry Hyde (a supporter of Charles Erskine and so opposed Richard Talbot) who was put forward by the Tories and Erskine himself; James, Duke of Monmouth, a famed military man himself and nominated by the Whigs and the Howe brothers[4]; Archibald Campbell, hero of Scotland, nominated by the Scottish lords and an unexpected named brought up, Frederick Schomberg, Duke of Schomberg named by Robert Spencer himself after seeing the prowess of the mercenary. Finally the Queen, after courted by each factions finally named the Commander for the Invasion of Ireland for his cousin, James, Duke of Monmouth. She was persuaded by the Howe's that his military assets were great and she herself was persuaded because of not only Howe's recommendation but also by Churchill himself, despite having problems with Monmouth acknowledged that he has good military credentials in leading the invasion. To satisfy the other factions it was decided by Queen Mary that Schomberg & Hyde would lead a part of the army invading Ireland with Monmouth himself naming a young man by the name of Charles Mordaunt as his aide-de-camp because of his self military genius seen by Monmouth himself and trusted the boy to help him.
James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, Commander for the Invasion of Ireland
The Invasion of Ireland
Sermon of May 1685
The plan started with a regular sermon in Dublin. A week before St. Patrick's Day, Archbishop Talbot spoke with his congregation and said to them:
"..... My Children! Ireland is in dire straits! Not from the English nor from the mainlanders but from our own! I today speak truthfully that we are not prospering as said by our government but we are facing certain destruction! Our government is corrupt, incompetent and unable to accommodate all of our wishes! The wishes of the people of Ireland! I, today want you all to see that and I also want you to see that our former overlord, England has agreed to our freedom... More than what Talbot and his cronies offered you all! Freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom to express! Let us unite against our common enemy!"
The ensuing week became known as "The Dublin Uprising" where people rioted early on led by Archbishop Talbot and one Henry O'Neill. Early on they just rioted and demanded negotiations with England but those demands were only met with the Irish Army attacking and harassing them. Two days after the riots started, a shot was heard but it wasn't known who started it but it didn't mattered for it started a goddamn civil war in Dublin and most of Ulster & Leinster. Government forces, equipped by weapons recently got from France led by a former Jacobite Scottish soldier by the name of John Graham, they fought in the streets, the forests, the roads and in farms against a recently trained militia under Henry O'Neill and his Loyalist forces. Archbishop Talbot himself ran away from Dublin, carrying valuable information to possibly meet the Duke of Monmouth and his forces to Armagh, Central Ulster.
Frederick Schomberg landing in Bangor, Ireland during the Irish Uprising of 1684
By St. Patrick's Day of 1685, most of Ulster had already fallen to the hands of the Loyalists under Ronald MacDonald and Hugh Montgomery's forces. With James Scott, Duke of Monmouth finally landing on Belfast alongside Charles Mordaunt with Frederick Schomberg landing in Bangor, Ulster while Henry Hyde landed on Kilkenny. Monmouth & Schomberg had no opposition to their landings with their areas being under the core Loyalist territory while Hyde faced opposition after his landing facing a garrison under John Graham, who moved up north to face Hyde's or Schomberg's forces but he stopped in Kilkenny the day before Hyde's landing and so faced him. The Battle of Kilkenny was a short affairs because of the inept experience of the Irish forces and the English sudden landing forced Graham into an early retreat.
In Belfast, Monmouth, Mordaunt and MacDonald marched southwest into Derry where Sarsfield had consolidated his defenses and his troops in the west while Montgomery went to Armagh to receive the Archbishop and his militia. The information was that the armies were concentrated in the south and west, Talbot moved his government into Connacht and a number of dissatisfied Irish lords in Munster wanted to parlay with either the Loyalists or the English. This was good because with another uprising in the south it would ease the burden of the Loyalists. Montgomery decide that himself and the Archbishop would travel to Cork to meet the Irish lords while O'Neill would disrupt and if possible join the northern army or attack convoys in the south. O'Neill decided on the latter so that the Catholics in his army don't think that they're fighting with the English to attack their people while if they stick to themselves they will have the thought that their countrymen are traitors.
While the Northern Forces were busy on their own, the others like Schomberg and Hyde decided to join forces to march into Dublin. They met in Kilkenny and after resting and training for a week moved south where many Irishman either reacted by hailing them as saviors and giving them supplies or they met either ghost towns or distrust. The English forces finally reached the River Boyne where they met Henry O'Neill and his band of militiamen and finding an unexpected duo of John Graham and unexpectedly Richard Talbot, the Lord Regent himself.
Battle of the BoyneThe Loyalists were led by three men: Henry Hyde, Frederick Schomberg and Henry O'Neill but true leadership was in Schomberg while the Irish Royalists were led by Richard Talbot himself. The Royalists had received the support of Louis XIV with him giving the Irish an approximate number of 2,500 soldiers and a number of weapons provided by the French but in return the Irish would give the French the same number of soldiers and The Irish accepted, even giving command of the so-called "Irish Expedition Force" to a illegitimate son of James York, James FitzJames, Duke of Berwick. Sarsfield himself was in Derry facing Monmouth & MacDonald and believing himself as the most experienced commander he led a force of 26,000 men while the Loyalists had 32,500 men comprising of Englishman, Ulsters and Leinster Loyalists.
Early on the battle was just bombardment after bombardment until the Irish foolishly moved part of the army into the river where it was raging, easily pulled back by the English forces. The Irish entrenched themselves but sent a number of soldiers to flank the English and they did the same under the comman of O'Neill. They met in the village of Naul and the Royalists were forced back. Meanwhile, Dutch troops that were sent to Ireland under the command of Schomberg had finally pushed through the ford of Oldbridge with their superior firepower until Schomberg was hit by an artillery and killed immediately [5], his son, Meinhardt Schomberg took command of the Dutch forces and quickly pushed through with additional support from his cavalry finally pushing back the Irish with additional support from the flank under Henry O'Neill. The casualties of the Loyalists were 8,500 dead and 10,000 injured while the Royalists had 12,000 dead and 8,000 either injured or captured by them.
Talbot himself ran away with his remaining troops into Connacht further deteriorating his prestige to lead and pushed the Munster Lords into near rebellion while Schomberg and his men was buried near the Boyne and his son Meinhardt took control part of his father's troops.
They arrived in Ireland by Christmas of 1685 and when they arrived they were met in horror as most of the city were either damaged or destroyed thanks to the Dublin Uprising months earlier. Even so they declared victory over the Irish Jacobites/Royalists as to the capture of Dublin and Hyde quickly took control over the city and started to invite and rebuild the city back, making himself the Lord of Ireland without agreement from the Queen and Monmouth, Hyde himself didn't tell the Queen nor the Commander until the end of the war. Meanwhile Meinhardt marched south after resting for a month in Dublin to take control over the rest of Leinster and possibly capture Charles Leslie, who had fortified himself there.
March to the West
Meanwhile, MacDonald & Monmouth had finally arrived in Derry seeing the city under heavy defenses and with Sarsfield himself leading the defense of the city. Their armies were large but the records were lost to history. The Loyalists gained much needed information thanks to a former governor of Derry, Henry Baker [6]. He was appointed in 1683 and led the city until being driven out by the Royalists and joined the Ulster Militia until he joined the army of Monmouth. He provided critical information such as the town having some weak spots in its walls and an underground resistance in the town which could help them and so Monmouth started to bombard areas where Baker said was weak and it helped them because the Royalists now had to rebuild the quickly crumbling wall and late in night many artillery and weapons were sabotaged by the resistance which helped the Loyalists. In January 1686, nearly a month after the siege began the town began to starve and the Irish tired, this worried Sarsfield and so he decided on a breakout attack. He went out with half of his army and the other half either to bombard the English or to guard the rebellious town. The Irish initially held the upper ground until their ammunition started to waver and so Monmouth decided to personally lead a charge against the Irish and this proved successful, repelling the forces and capturing and killing a lot of them but this hasn't changed that the town still was under Irish control until the next day on January 28th 1686 when the Royal English Fleet came up to Derry and shelled it without hesitation, demolishing much of the town and this made the English bold and so they charged in and successfully captured the town with minimal casualties but Sarsfield and a number of his men was missing, presumed running south into Connacht.
Munster Rebellion
Henry Montgomery, Archbishop Talbot and an additional third man representing the English, George Walker, a close ally of the now-dead Schomberg and confidant of Monmouth; they went quietly to meet the leaders of the Irish lords of Munster in Cork. They met with Neill O'Neill, a distant cousin of Henry O'Neill and John FitzGerald, Earl of Kildare (he moved south after the rise of James York in 1683). The Irish lords will declare their support to Queen Mary II if only they were granted dukedoms and the right to freedom of the Catholics and the support for them in Ireland. Montgomery at first was reluctant but after persuasion by George Walker and Talbot he accepted it. They wanted to raise a militia first and decided to rise up on February of 1686, a year after the negotiations and they agreed. The three men stayed in Munster to help and advise the Irish lords.
On February 1686, after the successful siege of Derry and as according to the plan, the Munster Lords rose up against Talbot, Sarsfield and Leslie. They easily captured most of Munster except for the north where it was still under Talbot's rule and so divided their armies with the southern forces led by FitzGerald and Walker to face Charles Leslie, who had nominal control over southern Leinster and eastern Munster while O'Neill and Montgomery led their forces north to squeeze Talbot's control over Ireland or Connacht to be correct.
The Last Stretch
Richard Talbot & Patrick Sarsfield in their emergency capital in Westport, Connacht were panicking over their lost and their lost of Leslie who they think was already either dead or captured and so wanted to escape Ireland, either with riches and men or nothing at all. They panicked for weeks until a letter came in from Louis XIV of France and offered them refuge in France but with the condition that they take soldiers and the riches of Ireland as to make them men of France and help them in wars to come. Early on Talbot agreed all the way but Sarsfield was hesitant and said that if they suffered another defeat then they will escape and he agreed knowing that they would be defeated again. That defeat will come under the rebellious Munster.
Sarsfield took what remained of the Irish army and marched south because he thought that the Munster were an easier foe and the Catholic people of Munster would rise up against them if they were defeated. They met near the Lough Corrib, south of Westport. They had 10,000 each in their armies and each led by commanders, the Loyalists by Montgomery and O'Neill while the Royalists/Jacobites under Sarsfield. The battle itself was short because of the demoralized Irish forces and the tactical superiority of the Loyalist forces. The Irish first attacked with their cavalry but were easily repulsed and then bombard the Loyalist but it still resolved the Loyalists. Finally the Loyalist marched with full heart and attack them relentlessly forcing Sarsfield to retreat. Now, Sarsfield took the advice of Talbot and Louis XIV and so went back to Westport to start evacuation.
In the south, the major victory in the Irish army was the defeat of FitzGerald's forces in Leinster but it didn't stop them to reach Charles Leslie who was hiding in a church after escaping and leading a band of Irish Jacobites, officially capturing him on July of 1687. While their other victory was a near victory where John Graham attacked forces under Schomberg in their pursuit of Leslie in Carlow where he surprised the English forces but as like the former it was short lived as they captured Leslie not long after but Graham himself ran north to Westport to join the evacuation.
Monmouth himself had an easy road into Westport with only ambushes and small fights. They arrived in Westport in January 1687. When they reached Westport, the city was like a ghost town empty and without any soldiers or the riches of Ireland, only a note from Talbot which was given to Monmouth:
"You have victory... but we have the riches and the soldiers! See you anywhere, you King's Bastard!"
Nicknamed "The Flight of the Jacobite" it was what ended the war in Ireland but it was only a one part of a major war dubbed the first world war or "10 Years War"
Next Up: THE AFTERMATH OF THE CIVIL WAR
Sorry for the long wait.... School and losing files a lot...
Sorry for the long wait.... School and losing files a lot...
Footnotes:
[1] Leslie was a known Jacobite propagandist and so I made the title as to fit his style
[2] Fictional Character
[3] OTL he was executed during the Popish Plot, ITTL he survived because of his friend's influence King Charles II who OTL didn't save him
[4] ITTL he didn't commit the Monmouth Rebellion and helped William & Mary into the throne and so wasn't executed
[5] OTL killed in the Battle of The Boyne but in TTL I made his death similar but different
[6] OTL he was Governor of Derry in 1689 but because of butterflies he was named in 1683
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Deleted member 2186
Nice timeline, so could we see a United Kingdom of Great Britain and the Netherlands in the future ore is that to much to see happening.