The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV

[xie323]

I posted this on reddit, but what are your thoughts?

Oktan's Russia: Brittany of the East
What are the chances that Russia under an Oktan-led KONR becomes one huge black market state? Oktan loves money and runs smuggling rings from RK Moskowien to Samara.

Considering how he can take over Russia after succeeding Vlasov, as well his obsession with money, what are the chances he does what the Bretons do? Mikhail Oktan copies Brittany, and turns Russia into one big Black Market State that surpasses Brittany, gaining even more profits.

I can see Oktan surpassing Brittany, that and he applies Brittany's Black Market System in a nation the size of Russia. Nations faraway from Brittany like China instead look to Russia for black market goods. Russia due to its geography becomes Brittany of the East, as many eastern nations trade with Russia instead of Brittany.

It would be interesting seeing a Black Market War between Brittany and Oktan's Russia. Where Brittany sends in Commando Strike Teams or manipulates the markets attempting to sabotage Oktan's Giant Black Market Network.

Intresting, I think Oktan could be the anti-Brittany foil if it goes down less cursed routes. Brittany would use it's black market influence for good, while Oktan would fuel conflict and war around the world for wealth.

I also find Oktan's writing very disjointed, the opening hints at a natsoc path, but as the game progressed he changed to a corrupt sleeze. This is due to the fact that he was supposed to be something like the AB at one point, but halfway through development they apparently changed him to a corrupt smuggler.

Also on another fourm, people are arguing about the morality of the US again in TNO and I just want to post my thoughts on this, which I also posted on that fourm:

As someone(read: a far leftie) very critical of the US imperialism IRL, I will say that mandates and canon aside, the US can actually be genuinely better than OTL. They would still be imperialistic, but it's possible to interpret them as self-serving anti-heroes/anti-villains rather than "only good because the others are utterly horrible" if the right people(RK, Glenn, LBJ, Harrington) get into power and the right decisions are made, think something like a sympathetic interpretation of both of the main Warcraft factions(well for the Horde when it's not led by insane leadership), or both NCR and House in Fallout, with the Nazis and the Sphere being two flavors of the Legion(or the Master, or the Enclave).

The fact that the above people can genuinely be wholesome, compared to the purely cosmetic and opportunistic reformists on the other side of the aisle like Speer, along with genuine reformists that will still leave behind a extremely tainted society like the G4 also can give you the vibe you are genuinely doing something good and genuinely making US a half-decent place.

Also the <list-of-unsavory-figures-we-support-against-enemy-x-in-Cold-War> is genuinely less viler than OTL due to the fact that a lot of these figures in the IRL Cold War were really fashy adjunct and would actually tilt towards Unity-Pakt or Sphere here. Apart from Matovsky, some uber tankies that can seek dialogue with OFN, and some others, there aren't really a lot of really cursed figures that are supported by the US.

Sure canon US is pretty cursed, but to be honest, canon is a moot point anyways because of the fact that it's very likely TNO3 will be a pipe dream and canon will go up to 72 for TNO2, and it stands that aside from Boringman winning GCW and Yeltsin/Batov unifying West Siberia more often than not, canon honestly rarely manifests(hell I've seen Boringman and Speer be chosen more as the successor than Heydrich). Also I think that a few devs have told us to create our own stories and don't put faith in canon(I know DocOverbuild has told me something to that effect)

 

[TheWildWestPyro]

OK, that's a cool idea.

 

[xie323]

Bascically the discourse with the US is exact reverse of people working with a certain movie franchise trying to paint one character as sympathetic, but everyone views that character as utterly evil. I'd rather not get into the franchise and what it is but you get my point.

We aren't supposed to root for the OFN but we end up doing so not because of the alternatives, but the genuine possibilities for a better society that can be realized, the fact that you can legitimately make a case TNO US is less bad than OTL US during the Cold War, and the fact that canon is arguably moot enough to not matter.

 

[Impirius]

With the SF argument about the US in TNO 3 i'm really curious what do you guys think of this theory
The US will develop in TNO 2 at least in 1 of the paths into a hyper efficient 1 party state via the death of the NPP and the permanent union of theR-D with the party more or less assigning which state\district goes to which party every election.

 

[chankljp]

So it would appear that even AFTER the Slave Revolt and putting down Schorner's mutiny, Speer will STILL not be able to fully get rid of the influence wielded by the hardliner conservatives and militarists in Germany.... That is to be expected, I supposed. And it seems that instead of an independent Speer walking away from the aftermath of the Slave Revolt being all smug and satisfied at the idea that he had built a strong foundation for his Thousand Year Reich, it will be more a case of going from one frying pan to another in the form of having to deal with the Oil Crisis.

Also, for Bormann's Japan diplomacy focus tree.... The 'Aryans of the East'? Is he going to try and pull a 'India is the ancestral homeland of the Aryan master race' in order to justify allying with them to counter Japanese influence in Asia?

 

[Impirius]

Also, for Bormann's Japan diplomacy focus tree.... The 'Aryans of the East'? Is he going to try and pull a 'India is the ancestral homeland of the Aryan master race' in order to justify allying with them to counter Japanese influence in Asia?

Probably yes,and you have to say that the Glory of battle path it's a pretty good policy idea.
Also the China focus at the end.

 

[Deleted member 96212]

Bascically the discourse with the US is exact reverse of people working with a certain movie franchise trying to paint one character as sympathetic, but everyone views that character as utterly evil. I'd rather not get into the franchise and what it is but you get my point.

Quite the contrary, I have no idea what you're talking about thanks to the lack of context.

 

[xie323]

Quite the contrary, I have no idea what you're talking about thanks to the lack of context.

That fandom which said character came from is rather messy and I'd rather not talk about it. And "my point" here means the disagreements between authorial intent and audience perception.

 

[Impirius]

That fandom which said character came from is rather messy and I'd rather not talk about it.

I think everyone that follows pop culture knows who(SW) you are referring to.

 

[xie323]

I think everyone that follows pop culture knows who(SW) you are referring to.

Got it, but let's not let this discussion get out of hand.

For the US I do think, going back to your theory, there may be a consolidate R-D hegemony to a crypto-one party system if the R-D can sucessfully expel the NPP, and this will be the canon route. Also I think the canon president will be cursed(or naive if McGovern) enough to work with the weakening Nazis if it means containing the threat of a USSR that's gone full tankie rather than lite tankie(Suslov, Bad!Sablin, Khrushchev) or it's better advocates(Sablin, Libsoc!WRRF, Bukharina)

As for Speer's oil crisis leak this only strengthens my belief that the tree that was shown with the CRF mega-leak was the epilogue tree, with the meeting deciding if Speer ends up a puppet or not and or if a hardliner coup took place via Remer and Oberlander disrupting that meeting.

 

[Whiteshore]

full tankie

Kaganovich and Zhdanov!

lite tankie(Suslov, Bad!Sablin, Khrushchev)

Or Party!Irkutsk.

 

[Impirius]

Also I think the canon president will be cursed(or naive if McGovern) enough to work with the weakening Nazis if it means containing the threat of a USSR that's gone full tankie rather than lite tankie(Suslov, Bad!Sablin, Khrushchev) or it's better advocates(Sablin, Libsoc!WRRF, Bukharina)

Robert McNamara fits like a glove for that.

 

[xie323]

So I noticed that the devs, or at least Panzer believe Bormann to be worse than a victorious Speer and I think I know why.

Some of Bormann's reforms are genuinely efficient economically and effective in a "maintaining control sense" and he makes even less political reforms than Speer. Even if Speer wishes that they could kill'em all deep down, he at least has to tone down the genocide to a degree.

While Bormann blows it big time at the end, he could open the door to a efficient sucessor that will perfect his technological and economic innovations, and be even harsher than a victorious Speer. Effectively, said sucessor could usher in a techno-fascistic version of 1984(in the classic inescapable totalitarian state sense, not Burgundian sense).

Given that in canon, the US ends up finding the Nazis the lesser evil vs. Tankie!WRRF and pushes for Detente(under McNamara or a Naive McGovern)..............and have the reich genuinely survive and you got yourself a even worse dystopia than Speer victory.

 

[Impirius]

Given that in canon, the US ends up finding the Nazis the lesser evil vs. Tankie!WRRF and pushes for Detente(under McNamara or a Naive McGovern)..............and have the reich genuinely survive and you got yourself a even worse dystopia than Speer victory.

I still think Speer being worse than Borman has to do with the KoN effectively normalizing and helping fascism to spread globally.
Because honestly Bormans foreign policy is realist and apparently even smart,while Speer dears to dream.

 

[xie323]

I still think Speer being worse than Borman has to do with the KoN effectively normalizing and helping fascism to spread globally.
Because honestly Bormans foreign policy is realist and apparently even smart,while Speer dears to dream.

Agreed on that front. I’m just trying to understand or theorize why Panzer thinks Bormann is worse.

 

[TheWildWestPyro]

Robert McNamara fits like a glove for that.

He usually comes to power in most of my games.

 

[Deleted member 96212]

That fandom which said character came from is rather messy and I'd rather not talk about it. And "my point" here means the disagreements between authorial intent and audience perception.

Then PM me if you need to because I still don't understand.

 

[thanix01]

I wonder if even in Go4 path Speer will have another chance to overthrown the Go4. Using the economic crisis to pin blame on Go4 economic reform, blaming total price control removal by Go4 as the cause of economic woes (whether it is true or not).

 

[Impirius]

I wonder if even in Go4 path Speer will have another chance to overthrown the Go4. Using the economic crisis to pin blame on Go4 economic reform, blaming total price control removal by Go4 as the cause of economic woes (whether it is true or not).

I doubt it,by that point he is literally dependent on the G4 and if they fail he goes down with them.

 

[chankljp]

Also on another fourm, people are arguing about the morality of the US again in TNO and I just want to post my thoughts on this, which I also posted on that fourm:

I have read that discussion over on Sufficient Velocity, and that user's entire argument against both OTL and TNO United States basically comes down to the same line of reasoning along the reasoning of 'AmeriKKKa is an evil, genocidal empire founded by a bunch of racist rich white male landowners on stolen native lands and built on slavery. The country is literally no different from Nazi Germany except for better PR' that I have talked about from earlier when discussing the people that unironically support a Gus Hall presidency.

The counter-argument (Which, BTW, I agree with) can be summerized as:
(1) Yes. America was a nation founded upon conquest and genocide. But they have stopped doing that centuries ago (For OTL)/slightly less than a century ago (In TNO).
(2) In the TNO world, they are fighting against literal Nazis who ARE actively doing those things.

In which that guy's response being, 'So? The only reason that the Americans stopped their genocide against the native in their version of Generalplan Ost was because they have succeeded in stealing the land from the indigenous people. And no matter how much time have passed, the current regime sitting in Washington in both TNO and OTL is a continuity of the exact same government that enacted Manifest Destiny'.

I find it quite ironic that if I understood one of his posts correctly, that user came from Russia, and someone could equally make that augment against his country both in OTL and TNO as well (Minus the continuity of government part... Well, maybe unless you are Kemerovo under Rurik ).... After all, what exactly is Siberia but THEIR verison of Lebensraum? Or if you go back far enough, apply the same logic to any Russia land outside of the original Kievan Rus... What? Just because you have stolen those land by conquest back in the 16th/1st century instead of the 19th century like the Americans did with theirs, what you did was somehow OK and does NOT make you just as bad as the Nazis? Does that make even the more blessed and benevolent Russian unifiers as bad as say a Germany under facist Speer or Bormann?

The same line of reasoning applies to China. And indeed, I HAVE seen radical circles online saying that the entire concept the Chinese Huaxia (華夏) nation and civilization is illegitimate, and that everytime the country has been strong and powerful historically such as during the Han and Tang dynasties, it was the result of them going out and conquering or vassalizing the 'barbaric' peoples around them... Hence 'China' needs to be destroyed as a concept in order for there to be peace in Asia, otherwise they will just inevitably become a regional imperialistic hegemony that bullies nearby nations such as Korea, Vietnam, Mongolia, etc... Thankfully, I have yet to see anyone using that line of reasoning to advocate for the idea that therefore China deserves to lose the Great Asian War against Japan, and have the Nanjing Massacre 2.0 enacted against them on a nation-wide level.

It reminds me of this ad that Nando's made about South Africa:

The gist being that if you go back far enough, EVERYONE was a 'foreigner'/'coloniser'/invader' at one point or another. And while we must not forget about our history, being overly focus on that sort of thing does not help anyone in the here and now.