The Matter of Ten Years – A Corvinus TL

[Yanez de Gomera]

But it is also a very good way to alter the demographics of Croatia and *Voivodina with lots of Serbs, resulting in the future loss of Voivodina and the Yugoslav Wars.

Well, that's quite far in the future though and in any case the Hungarian kingdom was already quite an ethnic mosaic, so much that by the time nationalism/mass literacy/industrialisation arrive it will have to federalise or find some other way of power sharing between the various ethnicities if it doesn't want to collapse into a bloody mess of interethnic warfare. Those are very long term trends though, mere speculation at this point. However, could the "military frontier" maybe be settled with Germans or Bohemians? Faraway from their "parent" countries, they would at most call for cultural and administrative autonomy, not independence even in modern times ans befire that they should be natural allies of the central power.

If Bohemia is retained, Hungary will be quite strong, but likely to be sucked into German problems/warfare, especially in an equivalent to otl's thirty years war.

 

[Fehérvári]

very nice update! Is there hope to see a map soon?

I was also thinking that eventually something like the Austrian military frontier can be put in place. It seems to me a good way to keep the border areas with the Ottomans under control without having to use the expensive royal army to repel every minor incursion.

Yeah I will upload some maps soon.

Actually, there are such border areas to deal with minor clashes already, they are the so called banates. This banate system exists since the 11th century, the first banates were Slavonia and Croatia.
At the time of Matthias there were six banates: Croatia, Slavonia, Só(Jajce), Srebernik, Macsó and Severin. The governors of banates were the bans, who were responsible directly to the king, not even the nador (the highest administrative rank in Hungary) could exercise power over them. Similar title to the bans' was the voivode of Transylvania. The captainship of Belgrade was also a very important title regarding the fight with the Turks.

 

[bolhabela]

With no battle of Mohacs and no 180 years long Ottoman occupation the ethnic make-up of Hungary will be drastically different. There will be far more Hungarians and the minority's will be more assimilated

 

[Fehérvári]

Well, that's quite far in the future though and in any case the Hungarian kingdom was already quite an ethnic mosaic, so much that by the time nationalism/mass literacy/industrialisation arrive it will have to federalise or find some other way of power sharing between the various ethnicities if it doesn't want to collapse into a bloody mess of interethnic warfare. Those are very long term trends though, mere speculation at this point. However, could the "military frontier" maybe be settled with Germans or Bohemians? Faraway from their "parent" countries, they would at most call for cultural and administrative autonomy, not independence even in modern times ans befire that they should be natural allies of the central power.

Not really. At the time, the Hungarians still compromised around 80% of the population, the great demographic shift took place in late 17th and in 18th century, after it was utterly devastated and depopulated by the constant warfare on the whole territory of the country.

 

[Zagan]

Not really. At the time, the Hungarians still compromised around 80% of the population, the great demographic shift took place in late 17th and in 18th century, after it was utterly devastated and depopulated by the constant warfare on the whole territory of the country.

80%?? Including Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, etc? That's really absurd!

 

[Joshuapooleanox]

80%?? Including Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, etc? That's really absurd!

Think he means the regular Kingdom of Hungary-Bohemia, probably still including Croatia though.

 

[Yanez de Gomera]

Actually, there are such border areas to deal with minor clashes already, they are the so called banates.

I knew about the Banates, although not in such detail, nut I was more thinking about a system of military settlers, was this already in place too?

On the other hand that should not be necessary without the demographic crisis after Mohacs.

I won't enter the matter of SouthEastern European demographics, since that's highly contentious and I don't know enough about it in the given timeframe to have an informed opinion about it.

 

[Fehérvári]

80%?? Including Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, etc? That's really absurd!

Ofcourse not I'm talking about only the Land of Crown of Saint Stephen. So Kingdom of Bohemia is not included.

 

[Fehérvári]

I knew about the Banates, although not in such detail, nut I was more thinking about a system of military settlers, was this already in place too?

On the other hand that should not be necessary without the demographic crisis after Mohacs.

I won't enter the matter of SouthEastern European demographics, since that's highly contentious and I don't know enough about it in the given timeframe to have an informed opinion about it.

Well there are examples settling Serbs there, so you could say that.

 

[Germania09]

Huzzah *breaks out the Pálinka* Greater Hungary for the win

In regards to settlement will Hungary still bring in more Germans to settle in the border regions? Perhaps even Czechs as well?

 

[General Ripper]

Definitly interesting TL, but I'm not sure would Hungarian and Croatian nobility ( I'm from Croatia ) accept John/Ivaniš Corvinus/Korvin as a King? Not only because he was illegitimate son, but more because they were against another strong king like Matthias/Matija...

 

[aegis03florin]

Ofcourse not I'm talking about only the Land of Crown of Saint Stephen. So Kingdom of Bohemia is not included.

I do not know the demographics situation of the Hungary in 15-16 century. However, I found the number way too big, especially if you count Croatia too. Very few countries in Europe (decently big) could mach this proportion and I doubt Hungary was among those, taking in consideration the different lands and population which form the "Land of Crown of Saint Stephen".

It will still be pity to lost ourselves into pointless debates. Can you provide some source (preferably in English)?

Anyway, my advise is to continue with the updates relating 15 and 16 centuries and let the 19-20-21 century issues for... later.

 

[General Ripper]

I do not know the demographics situation of the Hungary in 15-16 century. However, I found the number way too big,

Agreed. Nobody knows. There were no censuses at the time and speaking about Hungarian ethnicity in late 15th Century is IMHO nonsence. You can speak about "political nationality" of Hungarian or Croatian nobility, represented in their Diets, but serfs in Croatia, Hungary, Bohemia or Transsylvania were mostly serfs, not Croats, Hungarians or Czechs.

 

[aegis03florin]

Agreed. Nobody knows. There were no censuses at the time and speaking about Hungarian ethnicity in late 15th Century is IMHO nonsence. You can speak about "political nationality" of Hungarian or Croatian nobility, represented in their Diets, but serfs in Croatia, Hungary, Bohemia or Transsylvania were mostly serfs, not Croats, Hungarians or Czechs.

Well, if we count only the nobility then yes, it was 80%. And back then, the nobility was what counted.

 

[General Ripper]

Well, if we count only the nobility then yes, it was 80%. And back then, the nobility was what counted.

And even the nobility, many nobles in Hungary had their posessions in Croatia and vice-versa, best example is Zrinski/Zriny family, they were both Croats and Hungarians, despite the family having originated from Croatia... So, I wouldn't really speak about Hungarian/Croatian political ethnicity before at least late 18th/early 19th century...

Of course, educated people were, even at the time, aware that some people speak same/similar as they and others not, so some form of national conciousness was present, but that was very small number of persons.

So, 80% MAYBE in Hungary proper ( without Croatia and Bohemia ). MAYBE.

 

[Fehérvári]

Huzzah *breaks out the Pálinka* Greater Hungary for the win

In regards to settlement will Hungary still bring in more Germans to settle in the border regions? Perhaps even Czechs as well?

If the wars continue with the Turks, than those German and Czech settlers would be very likely needed to repupulate Srem and Northern Serbia, so yeah probably.

Definitly interesting TL, but I'm not sure would Hungarian and Croatian nobility ( I'm from Croatia ) accept John/Ivaniš Corvinus/Korvin as a King? Not only because he was illegitimate son, but more because they were against another strong king like Matthias/Matija...

I assumed that the 10 years plus on Matthias' lifespan would allow him to cement the succession. Matthias was quite popular among the lesser nobility, because of his firm grip on the magnates and the Hunyadi family even without royal domains had by far the most land among the nobility, which granted them tremendous power and influence because of the familiar system of Hungary. Another reason I thought John's succession was plausible, that most of the European powers were already distracted by the matters in Italy.

I do not know the demographics situation of the Hungary in 15-16 century. However, I found the number way too big, especially if you count Croatia too. Very few countries in Europe (decently big) could mach this proportion and I doubt Hungary was among those, taking in consideration the different lands and population which form the "Land of Crown of Saint Stephen".

It will still be pity to lost ourselves into pointless debates. Can you provide some source (preferably in English)?

Anyway, my advise is to continue with the updates relating 15 and 16 centuries and let the 19-20-21 century issues for... later.

Agreed. Nobody knows. There were no censuses at the time and speaking about Hungarian ethnicity in late 15th Century is IMHO nonsence. You can speak about "political nationality" of Hungarian or Croatian nobility, represented in their Diets, but serfs in Croatia, Hungary, Bohemia or Transsylvania were mostly serfs, not Croats, Hungarians or Czechs.

Actually the estimate I mentioned was based on the settlement names, tax datas and on the names of householders of that given time period (end of 15th/early 16th century). On these datas there are several estimations ranging from 70-90%. I simply choose the most accepted middle value. I will search for you for an english source and post it as soon an possible.

BTW.: I forgot to mention that these estimations apply on the OTL 1913 borders of the Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen! Sorry my bad.

 

[Fehérvári]

Until I can't find a proper english source on the matter of demographics, I post this Hungarian demographics map which shows the coherent Hungarian language area of this certain time period.

 

[aegis03florin]

In those tax pipes, is a serf included? Because if is not.... then you say that 80% of the freemen are mentioned by their Hungarian names.

 

[Fehérvári]

In those tax pipes, is a serf included? Because if is not.... then you say that 80% of the freemen are mentioned by their Hungarian names.

Those are the surnames of the householders of one-one taxpaying porte, so yes serfs included, basically that data is about the serfs.

 

[Fehérvári]

http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Demographics_of_Hungary#900.E2.80.931910

This is the best source in english I could find so far. Interesting about it, that while it claims it excludes the Croatia-Slavonia, it does work on 330 thousand square kilometres, which is actually the size of the whole territory of 1913 Lands of the Crown of St. Stephen.