The Matter of Ten Years – A Corvinus TL

[Fehérvári]

Foreword: If you are a Romanian, who easily feels offended by a Thread, which is not made according to the Romanian point of view of history, I suggest you to not read this TL, because it’s not the Thread you are looking for. Thank you for your understanding!

Hello there! I built up my courage and I started to make a Hungary themed TL, inspired by the Thread of Yanez de Gomera, "Prospectives for a Hunyad(i) Hungary". I hope you will enjoy it, this is my first TL.

The POD: Matthias Corvinus’s life expanded by 10 years.

Chapter 1: At The Dawn of a New Era

Since the end of the Austrian war in 1488[1], Matthias constantly negotiated with Frederick III Holy Roman Emperor and with his son, Maximilian about the peace between the two realm. Unfortunately, Frederick’s stubbornness halted the progress, and the two stuck in a diplomatic stalemate.

Frederick hoped, the ever worsening health of Matthias would make things flow in his favour on the long run. Indeed, Matthias’s health weakened in the last few years, he suffered from gout. Nevertheless, for everyone’s surprise, Matthias suddenly got better by 1489[2].

In 1490, Matthias made a breakthrough, when he was able to agree about the terms on hard lines with Maximilian. For the sake of further negotiations, they agreed to a personal meeting in Vienna[3].

In Vienna Matthias and Maximilian agreed on the terms of peace, which stated:

- Matthias gives back his Austrian conquests

-Maximilian has to pay 700 000 florins

-Maximilian has to accept John Corvinus, Matthias’s natural son as the legitimate successor of Matthias in both Hungary and Bohemia(peripheral)[4].

-Both rulers promise to not interfere in each other’s internal policies.

-Both rulers agree to maintain friendly relations towards each other, in the name of God and Christian brotherhood. (formality)

Even though they made the deal, they couldn’t sign the peace because of Frederick III, who opposed it. They finally concluded the peace in 1493, after Frederick passed away.

In the following year, John Corvinus has been crowned as King of Hungary, the bohemian estates(peripheral) recognized him as King of Bohemia(peripheral) too, and he married his betrothed, Bianca Maria Sforza, daughter of Galezzo Maria Sforza, former duke of Milan.

Matthias in his last years didn’t wage war against anyone, he maintained overall calm relations with his neighbors, and he rather focused on domestic affairs in sake of strengthening his son’s position within the realm. Matthias passed away in the year of 1500, he lived 57, and reigned 42 years.

After Matthias’s death, John Corvinus emerged as the reigning King of Hungary and Bohemia. He was able to come to power without facing any significant foreign or domestic opposition of his rule, thanks to his father's great efforts in suppressing them.

1- Happened in OTL
2- Happened in OTL
3- They really did agreed on such meeting, but Matthias died earlier, so it never has been realised
4- Bohemia without its core area, Bohemia Proper, which was under the rule of Vladislaus at the time. (Moravia, Silesia, Lusatia)

 

[Salvador79]

Cool.
If this isn't a mere Hungary-wank, it's gonna be interesting. Black Army and other unique structures here.
Looking forward to reading more!

 

[aegis03florin]

Hi!

I found your statment against possible Romanian readers which might be offended by your thread a little malicious... It's your thread and your story. As long there is not a racists, xenophobic or revisionistic manofesto you should not be concerned by some offended egos. And there are solutions for people wich might trolling your thread.

Now, if the story is good and plausible, I will read it with interest. Even if I am Romanian and maybe I might have different views of certain events. If I will not like it, I will not folow it. Simple.

Of course, I've spoken about me and my case, not in the name of all Romanians. Generalisation is bad...

So, my suggestion is to keep it professional , plausible and interesting.

 

[Fehérvári]

Cool.
If this isn't a mere Hungary-wank, it's gonna be interesting. Black Army and other unique structures here.
Looking forward to reading more!

Thank you, I will try my best, and no I didn't planned to make a Hungary-wank. I,m trying to make it as realistic as I can!

Hi!

I found your statment against possible Romanian readers which might be offended by your thread a little malicious... It's your thread and your story. As long there is not a racists, xenophobic or revisionistic manofesto you should not be concerned by some offended egos. And there are solutions for people wich might trolling your thread.

Now, if the story is good and plausible, I will read it with interest. Even if I am Romanian and maybe I might have different views of certain events. If I will not like it, I will not folow it. Simple.

Of course, I've spoken about me and my case, not in the name of all Romanians. Generalisation is bad...

So, my suggestion is to keep it professional , plausible and interesting.

Sorry, I didn't intend to make it malicious or neither generalised, I was just trying to avoid any kind of confrontation in a preemptive kind of way, but if you think it is just worsens the thing, I could remove that part.
Yeah you are right, it is just fiction, if someone doesn't like it, then he/she just wont follow it, but still I hope you or everyone else who is interested will like it.
About the plausibilty, like I wrote to Salvador79 too, I will try my best!

 

[Monter]

I think János would face some opposition against him in Bohemia, in OTL Silesia and Moravia rebelled the day they learned of the King's death. Also even if not outright rebellious, expect the magnates to plot against the Corvinus bastard.

btw, looking foward to the Italian wars, particularly since in virtue of his marriage János is another claimant for Milan, maybe the Hunyadis becomes the "compromise" candidate for peace between the Habsburgs and the French? Also any butterfly in the Spanish succession? Or did the Habsburgs inherit it anyway.

Holy crap, how many questions, hope I didn't sound annoying.

 

[Yanez de Gomera]

Good job at starting this! I appreciate your courage and feel a bit flattered that you cited my thread as a source of inspiration!

For the moment all seems well, just it is not clear to me why John Corvinus was crowned while Matthias still lived.

I will be following this and commenting to the best of my knowledges, but those are avtually extremely limited when talking about Hungary in that time period, as interesting as I find it I never studied it in detail.

 

[Fehérvári]

Good job at starting this! I appreciate your courage and feel a bit flattered that you cited my thread as a source of inspiration!

For the moment all seems well, just it is not clear to me why John Corvinus was crowned while Matthias still lived.

I will be following this and commenting to the best of my knowledges, but those are avtually extremely limited when talking about Hungary in that time period, as interesting as I find it I never studied it in detail.

First of all thanks for your support .
About the early coronation: The coronation of the heir in the life of his precedessor was a pretty common thing in the history of Hungary (especially during the Árpáds), it made the position of the heir more secure, when the actual reigning king died.

I think János would face some opposition against him in Bohemia, in OTL Silesia and Moravia rebelled the day they learned of the King's death. Also even if not outright rebellious, expect the magnates to plot against the Corvinus bastard.

btw, looking foward to the Italian wars, particularly since in virtue of his marriage János is another claimant for Milan, maybe the Hunyadis becomes the "compromise" candidate for peace between the Habsburgs and the French? Also any butterfly in the Spanish succession? Or did the Habsburgs inherit it anyway.

Holy crap, how many questions, hope I didn't sound annoying.

No you are not , your questions are totally legitim, but read what I just wrote to Yanez de Gomera, that would answer at least your bohemian question. About the italian wars... I have plans

 

[Fehérvári]

Chapter 2: The Reign of a Bastard part 1

John Corvinus born in 1473 as the lovechild (and only son) of Matthias Corvinus and his lover, Barbara Edelpöck. Originally Matthias planned him an ecclesiastical path, but when it became sure, that he can’t expect a child from his second wife, Beatrix of Aragon, he changed his mind, and started to raise John as his successor. He had a real struggle, to make his neighbours and the Papacy to accept John Corvinus as his legitimate heir, but in the end, the convincing powers of gold and arms reached the wished results. At least, for the time being.

Indeed, John Corvinus took the Hungarian and the Bohemian(peripheral) throne with ease, but it wasn’t just because of the formerly said reasons. Biggest factor in John’s success was his luck. While the magnates were willing to rise against John’s rule, there was almost no willing foreign power to act upon it. The only foreign ruler, who wanted to take the opportunity was Vladislaus of Bohemia(proper). Unfortunately for him, he had no ally, who could support him, since his brother John I Albert of Poland was already fighting with the Muscovy, while Maximilian wanted to avoid conflict with Hungary, because he feared it could lead to the strengthening of the Franco-Hungarian relations, which could force him between two fires. The famous Black Army of Hungary was a strong deterrent cause too. Without allies, Vladislaus felt himself too weak to stand against John’s realm alone, so the convert of power remained unobjectified.

Meanwhile, in the south, the frequency of Turkish incursions started to increase, which eventually led to tension between the Hungarians and the Porte, and alter war. The war lasted for four years from 1501 to 1505, resulted with no gains to neither side. A truce has been signed for three years.

A new conflict broke out when both Hungary and the Ottoman Empire intervened in the inner fights of Wallachia in 1508. The tide turned multiple times during the conflict until 1512, when Neagoe Basarab took the throne, thus ending the war. The new voivode was forced to pay tribute to the sultan, but despite that, his rule was free of Turkish influence, while he maintained good relations with the Hungarian court too.

From 1508 to 1510, Hungary was involved in another struggle too, against the Republic of Venice over the control of Dalmatia. The war was started by John Corvin, who took the opportunity, that Venice was preoccupied by her war against the League of Cambrai. He successfully took the Dalmatian coast of Venice from the Venetians, but because of the Venetian navy, he was unable to take the islands. As the nature of the war of League of Cambrai changed, with Pope Julius II changing side, the two made peace in 1510. The terms of peace stated:

-Venice has to recognise the loss of its coastal possessions of Dalmatia to Hungary, while retaining the islands, with the exception of the isle of Veglia(Krk), which goes to Hungary.

-John Corvinus promises to keep the trade rights of the Venetians in Dalmatia and makes several trade agreements with the republic in the favour of the Serenissima.

The following years were relatively peaceful for the kingdom with the little exception of minor Turkish incursions, the king turned his attention towards domestic affairs. John, just as his father, was a real patron of arts and culture, he kept up the shine of the royal court of Buda, but his real work was done in the kingdom’s three most important cities after Buda, by name: Fehérvár (Stuhlweißenburg in German), Esztergom (Gran) and Visegrád (Plintenburg). Fehérvár at the time was owned by Lawrence of Ilok (Újlaki Miklós), but John was able to buy it from him in exchange for other lands. John ordered big constructions in these cities, which lasted for several years.

 

[Fehérvári]

Read and enjoy!

 

[Germania09]

Sorry, I didn't intend to make it malicious or neither generalised, I was just trying to avoid any kind of confrontation in a preemptive kind of way, but if you think it is just worsens the thing, I could remove that part.

Trust me that disclaimer was pretty much needed considering when I wrote my Hungarian TL (hiatus) I received a few passionate msgs on the matter.

Regardless I love how this is going so please continue.

 

[Augenis]

So now on this forum we have both an active Romania-centric TL and an active Hungary-centric TL... Fight, fight, fight!

Just kidding. This timeline looks promising, but I have to admit - even my knowledge of my own nation in the decades between the 15th and 16th centuries is pretty scarce just to give you an idea of how little I know, so I probably can't give any good insights or questions. I'll still be reading this! We need more Central and Eastern Europe timelines in this forum in general.

 

[Fehérvári]

What do you think about a open ground battle between the Turks and Hungarians? Hungary's army consists the elite Black Army with around 20 000 personnel and the traditional hungarian fighting forces of ~80 000 men, while the Turks would have their army from their OTL campaign of 1526. What are the chances? Who is more likely to win and why?

 

[aegis03florin]

What do you think about a open ground battle between the Turks and Hungarians? Hungary's army consists the elite Black Army with around 20 000 personnel and the traditional hungarian fighting forces of ~80 000 men, while the Turks would have their army from their OTL campaign of 1526. What are the chances? Who is more likely to win and why?

Depends of the leadership of both armies and the location. The Turks were pretty formidable but not unbeatable. The Hungarians has the advantage to knowing their strategies and fighting style and not fall in the trap as easy....

Are you sure that they can raise 100.000sl soldiers? I'm quite sceptical...

 

[Germania09]

I mean the Black army was pretty well known as a professional force compared to it's adversary so I would weigh it more based on skill rather than numbers. Though if I had to weigh my bets I would always place them on based Magyar

 

[Monter]

The Turks were formidable, but the Black Army had a discipline unique to them, even the Turks took note of this.

That said, Matthias always avoided attacking the Sultan's main army, preferring to harass it by destroying the side ones and forcing the main army to attack where he was on a good position.

 

[Fehérvári]

The Turks were formidable, but the Black Army had a discipline unique to them, even the Turks took note of this.

That said, Matthias always avoided attacking the Sultan's main army, preferring to harass it by destroying the side ones and forcing the main army to attack where he was on a good position.

Thanks for your reply , but I'm actually more interested in the comparison of pure strenght of the two, I mean, if the two main armies eventually engage in an open field battle, then which side has better chance to win the battle. For example 3:2 in the Turks' favour, or something like that.

 

[Fehérvári]

Depends of the leadership of both armies and the location. The Turks were pretty formidable but not unbeatable. The Hungarians has the advantage to knowing their strategies and fighting style and not fall in the trap as easy....

Are you sure that they can raise 100.000sl soldiers? I'm quite sceptical...

Thanks for your reply, you helped to clear some thoughts in my mind. About the numbers, yeah they probably could since there are some pretty accurate sources of that time by Bonfini, Matthias himself and from some others.

 

[Fehérvári]

From what you wrote, I got some interesting ideas, thanks!
Tomorrow or maybe the day after I will upload the new chapter!

 

[aegis03florin]

Well... if a good chunk of those 80.000 men are made up by peasants (jobagy), you should remember what happened when the nobles armed some 40.000 of them to fight the Turks and then piss them off... hint: Gyorgy Dzosa.
SO, you need to have a very good leadership to keep them in line and, preferably to fix some of their complaints...

 

[Fehérvári]

Well... if a good chunk of those 80.000 men are made up by peasants (jobagy), you should remember what happened when the nobles armed some 40.000 of them to fight the Turks and then piss them off... hint: Gyorgy Dzosa.
SO, you need to have a very good leadership to keep them in line and, preferably to fix some of their complaints...

Yeah, that army consists a large amount of peasants (every 33 village had to arm a light cavalry force), but that's not a problem, since the peasants anno OTL rebelled against the tyranny of the magnates, which IITL is in check, since there's a proper royal power. But still, that army's main strength comes from the privileged (nobles, Székelys, Transylvanian Saxons, remnants of Cumans).