The Legacy of Sun Yat-sen

[Matthais Corvinus]

If the Nazis are eliminated in the 1930's then I could absolutely see a Germany that doesn't go onto World War. It could also expand its borders. I can see an annexation of Austria by Germany, and then German basically being territorially satisfied. In addition to this, I can also see the Lettow-Vorbeck gov't getting the Versailles treaty obligations thrown out. Perhaps a more anti-communist Germany, one that forms a stronger anti-communist front in Eastern Europe against the Soviets?

Without a war started by Germany in the late 30's and 40's, then could the German weapons programs develop a nuclear weapon before the end of the 40's? Is there any information out there about what Stalin's timeline for rearmament and possible territorial expansion was? This would give enough time for the Chinese and Japanese to have it out, if their going to, and for some rumblings perhaps from the European colonials, then, Soviet invasions, nuclear fireworks, fun. Fun. FUN.

 

[NFR]

If the Nazis are eliminated in the 1930's then I could absolutely see a Germany that doesn't go onto World War. It could also expand its borders. I can see an annexation of Austria by Germany, and then German basically being territorially satisfied. In addition to this, I can also see the Lettow-Vorbeck gov't getting the Versailles treaty obligations thrown out. Perhaps a more anti-communist Germany, one that forms a stronger anti-communist front in Eastern Europe against the Soviets?

Without a war started by Germany in the late 30's and 40's, then could the German weapons programs develop a nuclear weapon before the end of the 40's? Is there any information out there about what Stalin's timeline for rearmament and possible territorial expansion was? This would give enough time for the Chinese and Japanese to have it out, if their going to, and for some rumblings perhaps from the European colonials, then, Soviet invasions, nuclear fireworks, fun. Fun. FUN.

Why would the Soviet Union invade China? Because we were barbarous and insanely aggressive apes? That must be why we rolled over China in 1945 when we had strongest army in the world, unchallenged on land, against a prostrate Japan and China... oh wait.

And before you say anything, this China was at least as much ideologically compatible and friendly as any regime Stalin envisioned Mao's would be like. There was a good reason why for a good portion of the 30s and 40s, Soviet Union supported the Nationalists. As late as '47/8, it was advised that Mao did not try to invade the South. So unless this China does something ridiculous like allying with an avowed enemy of Soviet Union and rearming vast armies with winter gear... I don't see it.

Also, the German atomic programme was probably the biggest secret comedy of the 20th century. It might turn out a bit differently if they didn't kill/ exile all the Jews, but I won't be betting on it.

 

[Faeelin]

Wnd before you say anything, this China was at least as much ideologically compatible and friendly as any regime Stalin envisioned Mao's would be like. There was a good reason why for a good portion of the 30s and 40s, Soviet Union supported the Nationalists.

One thing that makes me incline towards keeping the military in charge of Germany is that the end of colonialism will be a lot more interesting, and can give us some fun times for China and other progressive nations.

Also, the German atomic programme was probably the biggest secret comedy of the 20th century. It might turn out a bit differently if they didn't kill/ exile all the Jews, but I won't be betting on it.

Heh.

"What do you call radioactive fallout scattered across the heart of Germany's atomic research program?"

"A good start."

 

[DuQuense]

A Fasict [non Nazi] Germany on the Italian Model.

 

[Susano]

Hm, lesse...
With support from big business crumbling (from their point of view, Hitler lied into their faces when he said there would not be a revolution) and fractures among the various paramilitary groups (chief would be the SA I think - they had plenty of reactionaries who would balk at fighting against two heroes of World War I), the outcome I'd conjure up would be a conservative authocratic system, among the lines of those which were blooming in 1930s Europe.

And then you can go back to China.

I said more or lessthe same to Faeelin (except that I disagree big busines swould be crumbling. Not at all.), but his response is true: What would L-V do about Austria? The Sudetenland? Danzig? So, returning to China wouldnt be so easy.

Then again, just because Europe alters doesnt mean focus needs to be on it. Come to think of, thats rather a AH cliche, that all change must be kept track of...

 

[Korwar]

If the Nazis are eliminated in the 1930's then I could absolutely see a Germany that doesn't go onto World War. It could also expand its borders.

Isn't that contradictory ?

I can see an annexation of Austria by Germany, and then German basically being territorially satisfied.

German nationalist wouldn't be satisfied untill they got all the land in Europe they were forced to give back under Treaty of Versailles.

 

[Kabraloth]

Isn't that contradictory ?

Considering what Hitler was capable of pulling without starting a war, no, it's not contradictory, unless you think that all German nationalists dreamed of an empire stretching into Asia.

German nationalist wouldn't be satisfied untill they got all the land in Europe they were forced to give back under Treaty of Versailles.

I don't think so. The corridor would have been aim #1, followed by Austria. And then? The Sudetenland was a pipe dream thanks to the strong Czech army, ditto with Alsace-Lorraine, Eupen-Malmedy was too dangerous all around, and Northern Sleswig was fairly divided.

 

[Faeelin]

Isn't that contradictory ?


German nationalist wouldn't be satisfied untill they got all the land in Europe they were forced to give back under Treaty of Versailles.

Eh, German nationalists aren't a united bloc. Alsace-Lorraine was surprisingly ow on the list of priorities; the Polish territories and Austria were the two keys, along with rearmament.

Would France fight for Posen? I'm dubious.

 

[Korwar]

Would France fight for Posen? I'm dubious.

Since it fought for much smaller corridor why shouldn't it ?
German attack on Poland ended the period in which attempts of growing German hegemony could be overlooked. The territorial issue was of minor importance. Since its creation Poland was at alliance with France, and part of its European bloc of countries ensuring stability of European continent and securing French interests.
The attack by Germany was a signal that it will try to dominate Central Europe and thus the continent.

War was neccessary to avoid this.

 

[Susano]

War was neccessary to avoid this.

You know, taken this and your earlier comment that you actually would prefer Hitler coming to power (and I do think you do not go by what you find most intersting but what you find more desirable) it seems clear you dont care a fig for the suffering of the polish people you cry about so much. You only care for Poland's strength and Germany's weakness for atavistic nationalist reasons, and use some emotionalist propaganda to justify and cover for that.

 

[Korwar]

Huh ? This is the work of fiction, not some plans of Gods to create alternate realities.
Cool off.

 

[Susano]

Huh ? This is the work of fiction, not some plans of Gods to create alternate realities.
Cool off.

True, but as said, Im just assuming (with good reason, IMO) that you do not go by what you think would be intersting in the context of such a scenario, but by what you think would be desirable for your home faction so to say. I admit its much the same for me, and its a widespread thing on these forums.
But its telling about you.

 

[Korwar]

Conflict =more dynamic and interesting scenario.

But I am sure anybody can notice you are just trying to provoke and aren't serious.
Best regards.

 

[Susano]

Conflict =more dynamic and interesting scenario.

Of course Faeelin has said he wants to return the focus to China, and thus doesnt want intersting things to happen in Europe.

 

[Korwar]

WW2 wasn't limited to Europe, it can go in similar way in Europe, and it will be interesting what it will due to Asia with more powerful China.

 

[Kabraloth]

WW2 wasn't limited to Europe, it can go in similar way in Europe, and it will be interesting what it will due to Asia with more powerful China.

There's already Hendryk's Superpower Empire China TL which covers just that (although with less Guomindang and more Empire).

 

[Korwar]

There's already Hendryk's Superpower Empire China TL which covers just that (although with less Guomindang and more Empire).

That's an Empire and completely different scenario done by other poster. The other scenario also starts off with much earler POD and China is much stronger.

 

[Kabraloth]

That's an Empire and completely different scenario done by other poster.

Well, duh. That's exactly what I said.

The other scenario also starts off with much earler POD and China is much stronger.

Yes, so?

 

[Faeelin]

That's an Empire and completely different scenario done by other poster. The other scenario also starts off with much earler POD and China is much stronger.

It's not at all clear to me that's the case.

A competent nationalist force with two more years of prep could have done better than the Empire in Hendryk's TL.

 

[Korwar]

Faeelin-btw why doesn't your China claim Tibet ? In OTL the Nationalist China did claim Tibet as part of its territories(together with Mongolia) utill recently .
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