The Legacy of Sun Yat-sen

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Hendryk

Banned
railwayslg8.jpg


Map of Chinese railways, projected and completed
Interesting map, isn't it? Sun Yat-sen's railway plans were wildly unrealistic, not to mention of dubious rationality--I mean, that dense railroad network in Mongolia and Xinjiang? A line running parallel to the Indian border in Tibet, on the crest of the world's highest mountain range? Even today, China is nowhere near having such a rail system, nor would it need much of it. To me, this plan shows that Sun was always a little out of touch with Chinese realities.
 
Interesting map, isn't it? Sun Yat-sen's railway plans were wildly unrealistic, not to mention of dubious rationality--I mean, that dense railroad network in Mongolia and Xinjiang? A line running parallel to the Indian border in Tibet, on the crest of the world's highest mountain range? Even today, China is nowhere near having such a rail system, nor would it need much of it. To me, this plan shows that Sun was always a little out of touch with Chinese realities.

Well, some points to be considered.

First, Sun made this map while writing in Shanghai to galvanize support for the Republic, as part of his book on how to industrialize China. So overplaying things is kinda ineveitable, no? Second, ISTM that unrealistic engineering dreams were the par for course in this era.

But, for observers:

Sun's plan to industrialize China involved using special economic zones (Canton, Shanghai, and a new port in the north) to act as loci for foreign investment, which would be done in tandem with state enterprises.

Awfully similar to what Deng did, no?
 
When Barbarossa began in June of 1941, the Germans had every reason to think they would triumph in short order. The Soviet army had performed poorly against Japan, only overcoming the Japanese through sheer weight of numbers. They had moved cautiously in Europe, only annexing their share of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Moldavia. Caught in disarray, the Soviet Union’s forces fell back in the first days of combat, and even Churchill thought Germany would win quickly. Reality, however, was rather different.

Perhaps the most important consequence of the Sino-Japanese War was that Stalin immediately called a halt to the purges. Officers under suspicion were dispatched to Siberia, where some, notably Marshal Tukhachevsky, served with distinction.

The war with Japan also revealed glaring deficiencies in Soviet equipment. While the USSR’s artillery, small arms, and armor were superior to Japan’s, there were significant command and control problems. More seriously, the Red Air Force’s planes were antiquated and inferior to Japan’s fighters, particularly the Japanese Zero. These changes were first addressed during the war, and served the Soviet Union well in its war against Germany.

Deep Operations

Perhaps the greatest hero of the war was Marshal Tukhachevsky. Tukhachevsky had been an early proponent of the Soviet “Deep Operations Doctrine”, which entailed using armored divisions to pierce enemy defenses and annihilate them from the rear. Tukhachevsky used it to great effect; but equally important for the future were Japanese efforts to defeat it. While Tukhachevsky was able to isolate several Japanese divisions in Manchuria, he also recognized the difficulty in seizing fortified, urban positions from the Japanese; and was an early advocate of the adoption of the recoilless rifles the Japanese produced in the last stages of the war…

Perhaps one of the most important lessons of the Sino-Japanese war was the emphasis on defense in depth. Previously, the USSR had focused on employing large forces near the border; but after the Sino-Japanese War, they were instead deployed in concentrations along the front line. Moreover, although the USSR placed troops in its new Polish territories, it was believed to be premature to dismantle the Stalin line that guarded the prewar Polish border.

The USSR suffered heavily in the opening stages of Barbarossa; vast swathes of the nation were overrun, with the new Baltic Republics falling under the Nazi heel. In the South, the Red Army fought a bloody battle throughout the fall in Kiev, ultimately being pushed back to the Dnieper. The USSR lost almost two million men, and the Wermacht was firmly ensconced in the soil of the rodina.

Yet as Manstein wrote, “another victory like this and we shall be ruined”. Barbarossa had failed to reach any of its objectives; Moscow and St. Petersburg remained safe behind Soviet lines, while the Finnish were unswayed by German promises of territory. Moreover, the Germans and their allies had approximately a million men in the invasion, more than their casualties in the war to date. While Goebbels trumpeted the fall of Riga, the Germans on the front line knew it would be a long, cold winter.

To the Defense of Revolutionaries: the Anti-Fascist Volunteers

The assault on the USSR divided the feelings of many in China. On the one hand, many in the Guomindang’s leadership was horrified by the images from Sakhalin of Soviet gulags. On the other hand, the USSR was still viewed as a progressive force in the world, for better or worse, and it had aided China in its struggle against Japan.

And really, nobody liked Germany anymore.

“You Germans boast of their progress and pride as a civilization, but they fail to understand that our civilization is two thousand years ahead of yours. While we are only too happy to help you to advance yours to our stage, we cannot be pulled backward by you. Two thousand years ago we abandoned imperialism and militarism. We have been peace-lovers ever since. We consider the brutalities of your might as nothing short of barbarism. So we will fight you until you are tired of war. Perhaps then day of real peace will come.”-Madame President Sun, July of 1941

It should come as no surprise that by August of 1941, twenty thousand men had volunteered to form the “Legion of Chinese Volunteers against Fascism”. More colloquially, as Chiang put it,

“Make China remembered in Germany for a thousand years so that no German will ever again dare to even squint at a Han” –Chiang Kai Shek [1]

It should also come as no surprise that the Republic of China took advantage of the oppurtunity to remove the Soviet-backed warlord who ruled Xinjiang, and that the Republic of Korea used the oppurtunity to crack down on Communists within the country.

[1] This is a play on what Wilhelm I told the German force sent to subdue the Boxers. Alas, Chiang isn’t aware of it.
 
Barbarossa !


Well, seems like somebody bit off more than he could chew. Couldn't have happened to a nicer fellow.

A few thoughts:

I hope that you don't go for the "assassinating Hitler" route (as per your other thread). IMHO the plotters remain incompetent, cowardly, incompetent backstabbing, and unwilling to act before the end is nigh (and did I mention incompetent?). So No.

The Korean communists are probably more deeply entrenched in the government than you give them credit for being... marginalized with Chinese support, well, maybe. But the country was conquered at least in part by the Red Army. With everything that implies.

I assume the front more or less runs Pskov-Smolensk-Kiev?

German attention goes more to the East than OTL, but in turn they don't hit anything as bad as Stalingrad in 1942, where the front ends a bit west of where it was at the start of the year.

With lesser damage to infrastructure, the soviets can push the Germans back to the border without lend-lease aid. Whether or not they can get further west isn't clear. Maybe yes- the trucks were most useful because the soviets needed to advance over enormous stretches of the USSR where all the transportation infrastructure was wrecked, and with crippled industry. But maybe not.

North Africa: with the Eastern Front as it is, and no Japanese attack, the Germans never regain the initiative post-Crusader, and the British take Tripoli by mid 1942. With the Germans backed into Tunisia, Vichy gets occupied and things go loopy. Darlan anyone?

Obviously the US enters at a later date, if at all. The allies are doing better, but the Soviets are doing a lot better. Assuming the DoW is hard to get and delayed, the fall of the Vichy government (late spring/ summer 42?) should be the right trigger for the US entrance.

Surrender by 1944?

____

BTW, I think China declares war by the winter of '41-42: volunteers are nice payback, but only a DoW Nanjang nationalize German assets.
 
I hope that you don't go for the "assassinating Hitler" route (as per your other thread). IMHO the plotters remain incompetent, cowardly, incompetent backstabbing, and unwilling to act before the end is nigh (and did I mention incompetent?). So No.

I concur.

The Korean communists are probably more deeply entrenched in the government than you give them credit for being... marginalized with Chinese support, well, maybe. But the country was conquered at least in part by the Red Army. With everything that implies.

On the other hand, look at how long it took to set up a Polish government in Czechoslovakia? But I concur, overall.

Correct about the line. Weep for Germany.

Is it possible you get an earlier rationalization, a la Speer? After all, Barbarossa has reached none of its objectives....

With the Germans backed into Tunisia, Vichy gets occupied and things go loopy. Darlan anyone?

I concur.

Obviously the US enters at a later date, if at all. The allies are doing better, but the Soviets are doing a lot better. Assuming the DoW is hard to get and delayed, the fall of the Vichy government (late spring/ summer 42?) should be the right trigger for the US entrance.

I figure May of 1942 or so, if at all.

I think if push comes to shove Hitler will cut down on the Uboat war rather than get America involved; he played it cautiously with them before America joined, after all.

BTW, I think China declares war by the winter of '41-42: volunteers are nice payback, but only a DoW Nanjang nationalize German assets.

I concur.
 

Olmeka

Banned
Interesting map, isn't it? Sun Yat-sen's railway plans were wildly unrealistic, not to mention of dubious rationality--I mean, that dense railroad network in Mongolia and Xinjiang? A line running parallel to the Indian border in Tibet, on the crest of the world's highest mountain range?
In general that is not so strange. A developed China would need access to Russia and Central Asia.

Standard Oil agreed to help develop China’s Daqing oil fields. American loans helped finance the development of a steel mill outside Harbin and an automotive plant outside of Shanghai. American factories helped develop China’s rail network, as Sun Yat-sen predicted twenty years ago.
A line running parallel to the Indian border in Tibet
Interesting. With American investment and connection to Tibet, perhaps we would see enterpraising American businessmen and geologists attracted to this mystical country discovering the vast mineral resources of Tibet earlier then OTL ?


As to war:
What kind of equipment and uniform could Chinese have ? Also what units would the Chinese sent to help Allies and were would the fight ?
 
I think if push comes to shove Hitler will cut down on the Uboat war rather than get America involved; he played it cautiously with them before America joined, after all.

You do realize that Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor even though he didn't have to?
 
You do realize that Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor even though he didn't have to?

But why? To get a Japanese DoW on Russia.

Interesting. With American investment and connection to Tibet, perhaps we would see enterpraising American businessmen and geologists attracted to this mystical country discovering the vast mineral resources of Tibet earlier then OTL ?

Perhaps, but how much earlier?

As to war:
What kind of equipment and uniform could Chinese have ? Also what units would the Chinese sent to help Allies and were would the fight ?

The Chinese have surplus Red Army equipment; so it's mostly on paris with the Red Army, circa 1939. Small arms are based on the Germans, however.
 
It should come as no surprise that by August of 1941, twenty thousand men had volunteered to form the “Legion of Chinese Volunteers against Fascism”. More colloquially, as Chiang put it,
I would expect a lot more than this
 
It's in the freezer.

I mean, what's left for China now? Laugh as the Communists take over Central Europe, and then prosper in the postwar period?

Perhaps a short overview of China's postwar period and economic success is in order to wrap things up. It seems boring and probably is, but it should provide a good conclusion.
 
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