The Iron Mirror: A Republican Russia and Communist America TL

[NixonTheUsedCarSalesman]

THE IRON CURTAIN

Speaking before Petrograd University in 1946, Winston Churchill first used the phrase "Iron Curtain" to describe what at that time was already becoming readily apparent: the division of Europe following the conflagration of the Second World War into an communist-dominated West and a Russian-aligned East. Initially not well-received in Russia and Eastern Europe, as the UASR was still seen as close ally in light of the recent defeat of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, his words proved prophetic, as in the years that followed an escalating series of crises and standoffs would see the post-war zones of occupation and influence solidify into two nuclear-armed camps; ones separated by thousands of miles of concrete, barbed wire, minefields and watch towers that formed a physical barrier between them.

Two different, and competing, economic and military alliances formed on either side of the Iron Curtain, and the divided Europe would soon become but one front in the global geopolitical confrontation of what would be called the Cold War. While a shooting war in Europe would not break out a third time, an atmosphere of intense mistrust and suspicion would see massive build-up of conventional forces in Europe, the Rotterdam Pact in the West and the Collective Security Treaty Organisation in the East, as well as a decades-long arms race in nuclear weapons. Furthermore Cold War tensions would spill over into a number of regional conflicts, especially following decolonisation in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, as either side supported opposing factions in these wars. It would also manifest as continuous espionage and counterespionage, as well as in in Space Race.

While commonly seen as having started in the period immediately following the Second World War, some see the Cold War as having started much earlier, during the Second American Revolution when the Entente provided economic aid and limited troop deployments in support of the anti-communist "white" faction of that conflict.

Other, primarily left-wing scholars, reject the Cold War as a geopolitical conflict all together and cast it as a continuation of a class struggle that had existed for centuries prior, one that intensified most significantly during the American "Gilded Age" and the Presidency of William McKinley.

 

[Pax Americana]

Now, this is interesting, and poses the question: If you were a Freedom Loving Patriot (TM), and you saw America was an oppressive communist regime, would you defect?

 

[Sigfried]

Now, this is interesting, and poses the question: If you were a Freedom Loving Patriot (TM), and you saw America was an oppressive communist regime, would you defect?

I doubt many here would, They still suffer from AMERICA FUCK YEAH just leftwing version which is bit more muted.

 

[Pax Americana]

I doubt many here would, They still suffer from AMERICA FUCK YEAH just leftwing version which is bit more muted.

Well, it all depends on when the revolution took place. If it was recent enough, like Russia, there could be people who regret how it happened.

 

[Ismaili777]

I actually look forward to this timeline. Though I am left leaning, I feel many timelines like to portray communist America as a libertarian socialist paradise because “it can’t happen here” logic. While yes the above is possible, I look forward to a timeline that does not take that direction for a first in my opinion.

 

[Theoretical_TJ]

Probably the most interesting thing about this Cold War that’s different than ours is that the naval war will be far more symmetrical, with the British Enpire having much more need for a major navy postwar, even if Russia has to subsidize it.

 

[Pax Americana]

Probably the most interesting thing about this Cold War that’s different than ours is that the naval war will be far more symmetrical, with the British Enpire having much more need for a major navy postwar, even if Russia has to subsidize it.

It will be interesting as well, as GB switches from ASW in the cold war (as otl) to a Submarine focus, while Russia will probably be more surface warfare. This is because UK harbours are in Missile range of France, while Russia isn't.

 

[Ismaili777]

On the plus side, Afghanistan will likely avert the war as Russia will have a sort of mutual content with the monarchy. Unlikely communism would penetrate there, otl was very forced and only due to heavy soviet meddling.
Though Latin America concerns me...

 

[BigBlueBox]

I think any Allied government allowing Germany to keep East Prussia is far too unrealistic.

 

[Pax Americana]

I think any Allied government allowing Germany to keep East Prussia is far too unrealistic.

I don't think so. It was Stalin who pushed for it to become Russian, and he clearly isn't here.

 

[BigBlueBox]

I don't think so. It was Stalin who pushed for it to become Russian, and he clearly isn't here.

He pushed for it to become Russian for very logical reasons that any Russian leader would follow and the rest of the Allied leadership would gladly accept. First of all, as long as East Prussia was German Germany would always want to invade Poland to gain a land connection to East Prussia. Second of all, there was a consensus among the allied leadership that Germany must be severely punished, and losing East Prussia was part of that punishment. Churchill ITTL would be actively encouraging his democratic Russian allies to annex East Prussia just to stick it to the Prussian militarists. Finally, Russia could use a warm water port and a victory prize.

 

[Pax Americana]

He pushed for it to become Russian for very logical reasons that any Russian leader would follow and the rest of the Allied leadership would gladly accept. First of all, as long as East Prussia was German Germany would always want to invade Poland to gain a land connection to East Prussia. Second of all, there was a consensus among the allied leadership that Germany must be severely punished, and losing East Prussia was part of that punishment. Churchill ITTL would be actively encouraging his democratic Russian allies to annex East Prussia just to stick it to the Prussian militarists. Finally, Russia could use a warm water port and a victory prize.

Actually, the "consensus" amongst the allied leaders to punish Germany was really just FDR and Stalin. Churchill pushed for much more lenient terms (part of his motto is In Victory, Magnanimity). While we don't know who runs Russia quite yet, they certainly are not Stalin, and geocoding East Prussia's Germans is probably off of the table. East Germany will probably just have to grant Russia fleet basing rights in Koenigsberg, and it will be all good.

 

[BigBlueBox]

Actually, the "consensus" amongst the allied leaders to punish Germany was really just FDR and Stalin. Churchill pushed for much more lenient terms (part of his motto is In Victory, Magnanimity). While we don't know who runs Russia quite yet, they certainly are not Stalin, and geocoding East Prussia's Germans is probably off of the table. East Germany will probably just have to grant Russia fleet basing rights in Koenigsberg, and it will be all good.

Churchill wanted to have mercy on the South Germans, and to completely crush the Prussians. He was totally fine with accepting the OTL expulsions and only raised objections once they were well underway. Even then he was far more concerned about Russia permanently occupying Eastern Europe then he was about the Germans.

 

[Pax Americana]

Churchill wanted to have mercy on the South Germans, and to completely crush the Prussians. He was totally fine with accepting the OTL expulsions and only raised objections once they were well underway. Even then he was far more concerned about Russia permanently occupying Eastern Europe then he was about the Germans.

Churchill never got over his intrinsic fear of the Bolsheviks, and wanted to do everything in his power to weaken them. That's why he advocated for a German state, as a counterbalance to the Commies. This is no different, and a strong Germany is on his agenda for sure.

 

[BigBlueBox]

Churchill never got over his intrinsic fear of the Bolsheviks, and wanted to do everything in his power to weaken them. That's why he advocated for a German state, as a counterbalance to the Commies. This is no different, and a strong Germany is on his agenda for sure.

Churchill wanted to split South Germany and North Germany. That’s not what somebody who wants a strong Germany would do. Giving East Prussia to Poland and Russia is just common sense to the Allies. Allowing Germany to keep it is as plausible as letting Germany keep Alsace-Lorraine after WWI. The chances of East Prussia staying part of a German state after WWII are even less than Austria.

 

[Pax Americana]

Churchill wanted to split South Germany and North Germany. That’s not what somebody who wants a strong Germany would do. Giving East Prussia to Poland and Russia is just common sense to the Allies. Allowing Germany to keep it is as plausible as letting Germany keep Alsace-Lorraine after WWI. The chances of East Prussia staying part of a German state after WWII are even less than Austria.

I'm not really sure where you are getting the information that Churchill wanted to split Germany. He OPPOSED the Morgenthau Plan, and even wanted to rearm the Whermacht in case of war with the Soviets. And Giving Russia East Prussia being Common sense? While I can see the case for southern East Prussia becoming Polish, as there are a lot of Poles living there, there isn't a single Russian in East Prussia, and all Russia really wants is a warm water port, which can be accomplished by giving Russia Fleet basing rights and Port access.

 

[BigBlueBox]

I'm not really sure where you are getting the information that Churchill wanted to split Germany. He OPPOSED the Morgenthau Plan, and even wanted to rearm the Whermacht in case of war with the Soviets. And Giving Russia East Prussia being Common sense? While I can see the case for southern East Prussia becoming Polish, as there are a lot of Poles living there, there isn't a single Russian in East Prussia, and all Russia really wants is a warm water port, which can be accomplished by giving Russia Fleet basing rights and Port access.

It's common knowledge that Churchill wanted Germany split in three. I don't know where you got your idea he wanted a strong Germany. Here it is, Churchill's plan for Germany - notice that East Prussia is split between Poland and the USSR.

 

[Pax Americana]

It's common knowledge that Churchill wanted Germany split in three. I don't know where you got your idea he wanted a strong Germany. Here it is, Churchill's plan for Germany - notice that East Prussia is split between Poland and the USSR.

Where can I find this map?

 

[BigBlueBox]

Churchill: It would be a good thing now at the round table to hear the views of the Russians on Poland's borders. I think Eden or I could then make them known to the Poles. We believe that Poland unquestionably should be satisfied at the expense of Germany. We are prepared to tell the Poles that this is a good plan, and that they cannot expect a better one. After this we could raise the question of restoring relations. But I should like to emphasise that we want a strong independent Poland, friendly to Russia.

Stalin: The question is that the Ukrainian lands should go to the Ukraine, and the Byelorussian, to Byelorussia, i.e., the 1939 border established by the Soviet Constitution should exist between us and Poland. The Soviet Government stands for this border and considers that this is correct.

What other questions are there for discussion?

Roosevelt: The question of Germany.

Stalin: What are the proposals on this matter?

Roosevelt: The partition of Germany.

Churchill: I am for partitioning Germany. But I should like to consider the question of partitioning Prussia. I am for separating Bavaria and the other provinces from Germany.

Roosevelt: In order to stimulate our discussion on this question, I want to set forth a plan for partitioning Germany into five states, which I personally drew up two months ago.

Churchill: I should like to stress that the root of evil in Germany is Prussia.

Roosevelt: I should like us to have a picture of the whole before we speak of the separate components. In my opinion, Prussia must be weakened as far as possible, and reduced in size. Prussia should constitute the first independent part of Germany. The second part of Germany should include Hannover and the north-western regions of Germany. The third part -- Saxony and the Leipzig area. The fourth part -- Hessen Province, Darmstadt, Kassel and the areas to the south of the Rhine, and also the old towns of Westphalia. The fifth part -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg. Each of these five parts would be an independent state. In addition, the regions of the Kiel Canal and Hamburg should be separated from Germany. These regions would be administered by the United Nations, or the four Powers. The Ruhr and the Saar must be placed either under the control of the United Nations or under the trusteeship of the whole of Europe. That is my proposal. I must add that it is merely exploratory.

Churchill: You have said a mouthful. I think there are two questions: one -- destructive, the other -- constructive. I have two ideas: the first is to isolate Prussia from the rest of Germany; the second is to separate Germany's southern provinces -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg, the Palatinate, from the Saar to Saxony inclusive. I would keep Prussia in strict condition. I think it would be easy to sever the southern provinces from Prussia and include them in a Danubian federation. The people who live in the Danube basin are not the cause of war. At any rate, I would give the Prussians harsher treatment than the other Germans. The southern Germans will not start a new war.

Stalin: I do not like the plan for new associations of states. If it is decided to partition Germany no new associations need be set up. Whether it is five or six states, and two regions into which Roosevelt proposes to divide Germany, this plan of Roosevelt's to weaken Germany can be examined. Like us, Churchill will soon have to deal with great masses of Germans. Churchill will then see that it is not only the Prussians who are fighting in the German Army but also Germans from the other provinces of Germany. Only the Austrians, when surrendering, shout "I'm Austrian", and our soldiers accept them. As for the Germans from Germany's other provinces they fight with equal doggedness. Regardless of how we approach the partitioning of Germany there is no need to set up some new association of Danubian states lacking vitality. Hungary and Austria must exist separately. Austria existed as a separate state until it was seized.

Roosevelt: I agree with Marshal Stalin, in particular, that there is no difference between Germans from the various German provinces. Fifty years ago there was a difference but now all German soldiers are alike. It is true that this does not apply to the Prussian officers.

The map is from Wikipedia. But it's based on what Churchill actually said.
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/teheran.htm

 

[Pax Americana]

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/teheran.htm

I stand corrected.