The Forge of Weyland

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This is approximately where HMS Juniper and MV Oil Pioneer were sunk
Google maps I presume. Which does bring to my mind the question of how much the Norwegian road network may have changed/improved since 1940? (My own answer: well I figure maybe road-surface technology has improved, but all those mountains getting in the way...)
Someone (I think allanpcameron) had a (edit: WW2) timeline where they had old black and white maps much closer to the era which we were treated to gratuitous screenshots of with army positions on once the invasion of Germany was under way.
 
Google maps I presume. Which does bring to my mind the question of how much the Norwegian road network may have changed/improved since 1940? (My own answer: well I figure maybe road-surface technology has improved, but all those mountains getting in the way...)
Someone (I think allanpcameron) had a (edit: WW2) timeline where they had old black and white maps much closer to the era which we were treated to gratuitous screenshots of with army positions on once the invasion of Germany was under way.
The road network is obviously better, but very often the roads are in the same place, just rubbish in 1940.
OTOH the Norwegian Sea is still the Norwegian Sea... :p
 
The problem with period maps is finding useful ones, then editing the hell out of them. Very time consuming.
So a modern google map is a quick and dirty way of showing what's going on.
Now do you see why I prefer stories about Aircraft Carriers? :D
 
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While Dunkirk hasn't happened (yet!), there are a fair number of destroyers and other ships (including the belgian and Dutch ones) hanging around the French/Belgian/Dutch coast and the southern north sea. As are German MTB's and U-boats.

Norway has been seen a relatively peaceful (from a naval POV) since the KM surface force got hammered. The main threat is seen as aircraft and U-boats, so convoys have escorts, the main fleet isnt in so much danger, although destroyers operating alone or in pairs have got into trouble.
Maritime patrol aircraft? You mean those planes the RAF is hoarding to bomb German industry next year?
There are Allied subs around, but so far the KM hasn't run into any. So far...
And picket destroyers? Needed much more urgently elsewhere.

In your TL, where are the remaining Kreigsmarine heavy assets based? I'm just trying to visualize if they were coming from the Baltic through the Skagerrak (tighter choke point) or directly into the North Sea? Thanks again! Cheers, M.
 

Driftless

Donor
I believe the rural Norwegian road network got a large boost from the North Sea Oil economy, so we may be comparing boots to Saabs from 1940's to 1980's
 

Driftless

Donor
From the perspective of admitted ignorance....

Can anyone elaborate or RN tactics in the North Sea? With their massive numerical superiority, I would have expected lines of picket submarines, destroyers and maritime patrol aircraft to pen in the Kreigsmarine..... especially if the UK was sending relatively lightly escorted convoys to northern Norway.

I'm also wondering if either Belgium or Holland as they are both still in war would have been in a position to contribute maritime patrol aircraft, submarines or destroyers to such a picket, as that would enhance situational awareness even more?

Thank you in advance.....
A shot in the dark here...... The Germans probably come up through the Skaggerak and hug close to occupied Norwegian shores and under Luftwaffe air cover for as long as they can. At least till they get to their mission area.
 
A shot in the dark here...... The Germans probably come up through the Skaggerak and hug close to occupied Norwegian shores and under Luftwaffe air cover for as long as they can. At least till they get to their mission area.

In OTL, how would RN submarines deploy (attempt to "picket") that area? I assume the Germans would ideally want to create mine fields to dissuade non-surface ships from nosing around in those areas, but in looking at the depth of the Norwegian Trench, that doesn't look like an option. So without being able to effectively protect that escape route into the North Sea from RN (French, Belgian, Dutch) submarines, it would be left to active patrols by air and surface assets only? If correct, how effective were they in OTL?
 
In OTL, how would RN submarines deploy (attempt to "picket") that area? I assume the Germans would ideally want to create mine fields to dissuade non-surface ships from nosing around in those areas, but in looking at the depth of the Norwegian Trench, that doesn't look like an option. So without being able to effectively protect that escape route into the North Sea from RN (French, Belgian, Dutch) submarines, it would be left to active patrols by air and surface assets only? If correct, how effective were they in OTL?
Most of the subs are further south, there is more chance of a contact north of Germany. But there are minefields to avoid, anti-sub sweeps, aircraft, so its still not easy. The problem with further north is a lot of sea with few Germans in it! Remember this is before long range passive sonar or sub radar
 
I think in the West we tend to see events through a US perspective and that the attack on Pearl Harbor was the first indication of Japanese ill-intent. Just based on memory from readings long ago, the Japanese had made very clear their expansionist philosophy throughout the late 1930's and almost started a war directly with the UK over its funding of the Chinese Nationalist government.

Not really the first indication is probably the invasion of China but specifically though both the UK and US had alerted forces, the British were manning beach defences and the US had dispose its air force to prevent sabotage. hmm.

The UK and US both had and shared intel on Japanese naval mobilization so they knew something was happening not when or where. There is a specific sequence of events leading to the Japanese attack on the western powers.

At the time of the Japanese decision Germany has occupied all western Europe the USSR looks like its going to collapse and there is a good chance the Suez Canal will be captured.

At the same time FDR has declared an oil embargo which will only be lifted if Japan leaves the FEIC and China. The IJN has informed everyone that with the embargo they have fuel oil for the Navy for 3-6 months operations after which the USN will be able to sail into Tokyo Bay and flatten Cities one by one.

This persuades the IJA to release divisions for the attack on the DEI.

TTL Britain and France and the Dutch are in a war, but it not a major naval war, the Red Army is intact the US not being aggressive.

Maritime patrol aircraft? You mean those planes the RAF is hoarding to bomb German industry next year?

Well their orders as at April 13 are to prioritise German Troop concentrations, Transport and the Ruhr Oil industry. So no they would be bombing Troop concentrations, Transport and the Ruhr oil industry with a passing look at burning a few German cities just to remind folk that everyone can do it.

Slightly later most of the MR assets were based in South and West England to cover inbound convoys and presumably TTL Norway Bound and cross channel as well. To do that as at 1 November they had

22 GR & Fighter Sqdns, total IE 402, total IR 14, actual strength 464, average availability 187.

7 Flying Boat Sqdns, total IE 36, total IR 15, actual strength 58, average availability 14.

1%BD FAA Sqdns (812, %BD 700), total IE 12, actual strength 12, average availability 9

The fighter squadrons being Blenheims maybe some PRU flights with Spits. Lot of ocean to cover with 200 a/c
 
They don't need maritime air over the Channel unless France falls, the minefields make the routes retty safe


I have to disagree with that. The channel is the quickest route to the Atlantic shipping lanes for the Uboats and the mine fields will force them to the surface where the aircraft can deal with them.
 
If they surface, it will be at night. Light AS patrols and coastal guns. But in practice, after losing 3 subs in as many weeks, it was considered suicidal
 
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