The Fire Never Dies: Labor's Star Ascendant

[piratedude]

I hope that a lot of socialist controlled or influenced governments outright ban the kkk for their terrorist activities to root them out.

Heck, i bet they could scrounge up a few surviving civil war veterans to very publicly condemn the kkk on a 4th of july celebration.

 

[Windows95]

I also hope that the socialists will collect and bring ex-slaves too to show the KKK and the American South that "states' rights" are a dog-whistle, and that Reconstruction wasn't a disaster.

 

[Meshakhad]

I hope that a lot of socialist controlled or influenced governments outright ban the kkk for their terrorist activities to root them out.

There are two problems with that. First, any explicit ban on the KKK would probably run into a legal challenge. Even where socialists have gained local power, they haven't held it long enough to establish much influence in the judicial system. Second, a ban on the KKK would likely lead to retaliatory bans on the IWW.

Heck, i bet they could scrounge up a few surviving civil war veterans to very publicly condemn the kkk on a 4th of july celebration.

I also hope that the socialists will collect and bring ex-slaves too to show the KKK and the American South that "states' rights" are a dog-whistle, and that Reconstruction wasn't a disaster.

I'm doubtful either would have much of an effect. The KKK-IWW fights aren't over the legacy of the Civil War. They're about current issues. Unlike the first Klan, the second Klan (both IOTL and ITTL) has a reach well beyond the South.

 

[NHBL]

The second Klan was active and successful in MAINE. Blacks (or word of choice depending on your politics) were not a concern, obviously, but French Canadian Catholics were a big Klan target.
The Klan was good at picking a target to agitate against, because some of the locals already had a perceived problem with them, or could be made to perceive one.

 

[piratedude]

There are two problems with that. First, any explicit ban on the KKK would probably run into a legal challenge. Even where socialists have gained local power, they haven't held it long enough to establish much influence in the judicial system. Second, a ban on the KKK would likely lead to retaliatory bans on the IWW.

Fair enough,

I'm doubtful either would have much of an effect. The KKK-IWW fights aren't over the legacy of the Civil War. They're about current issues. Unlike the first Klan, the second Klan (both IOTL and ITTL) has a reach well beyond the South.

On this however I'll disagree somewhat. While it isn't the direct cause cause of their fighting, their worldviews means they reinterpret/recontextualize history differently. It is my feeling that doing so plays a key part in peoples' politics.

The second KKK and other aligned organizations and persons reframe American history as WASP history, and that all the folks that don't fit into that narrow band are un-American and unimportant Others that should be ignored and put down. Which is exactly why at this point in the timeline the 'daughters of the confederacy' are putting up many of those confederate monuments.

The socialists on the other hand will emphasize the role of labor, of the enslaved, and on the figures of American history they identify with, such as Thomas Paine John Brown, and Lincoln (and these are just a few of the figures Debs himself has mentioned in some of his writings)

 

[NHBL]

I wonder if anyone will use the solution the Irish used for monuments that were not popular. (Most met their ends in the 20's and 30,s, but not all.
Check out "Up Went Nelson" on youtube.)
Unpopular monuments plus people with gelignite results in fewer monuments and less gelignite.

 

[dentista campora]

The socialists on the other hand will emphasize the role of labor, of the enslaved, and on the figures of American history they identify with, such as Thomas Paine John Brown, and Lincoln (and these are just a few of the figures Debs himself has mentioned in some of his writings)

Makes sense.

 

[Meshakhad]

I wonder if anyone will use the solution the Irish used for monuments that were not popular. (Most met their ends in the 20's and 30,s, but not all.
Check out "Up Went Nelson" on youtube.)
Unpopular monuments plus people with gelignite results in fewer monuments and less gelignite.

There will be a lot of that. The Lost Cause of the South will be not simply be dead, it will be cremated.

 

[Meshakhad]

…The proclamation of Yuan Shikai as the Hongxian Emperor was not entirely unexpected, even though it did take much of China by surprise. For months and even years, a whisper campaign had been mounted to quell republican sentiments. Perhaps critically, all of the world powers involved in China were informed well in advance of the public restoration on December 15, 1915[1]…

…The reaction of the Chinese people was not the outpouring of support the new Emperor had expected. Instead, it was generally bemusement. Fortunately, the Emperor’s promises of reforms, particularly that he would share power with an elected legislature, brought much of the country to at least accept the new regime. Protests mainly came from hardcore republicans[2]. More surprising was the lack of protest from the Qing court, which saw an opportunity to regain some power through an alliance with the new Xinhai dynasty[3]…

- From The Chinese Phoenix: Birth of the Xinhai Dynasty by Matt Ward

[1] The date is IOTL.

[2] IOTL, the attempt to establish a new emperor backfired badly. ITTL, a more careful campaign in advance dampens opposition, and the new monarchy is accepted.

[3] Named for the Xinhai Revolution that brought down the Qing dynasty. IOTL, as far as I can tell, Yuan Shikai never properly named his dynasty.

 

[Meshakhad]

This update is a bit out of order, as I misremembered when the attempted restoration took place IOTL. But yes, one divergence is that the effort to establish Yuan Shikai as the Hongxian Emperor succeeds. China will be facing a warlord period, but not as bad as IOTL, and probably not lasting as long.

 

[KingSweden24]

So are the Qing just chilling in Manchuria then, totally fine with Yuan grabbing the Mandate of Heaven from them?

 

[piratedude]

So are the Qing just chilling in Manchuria then, totally fine with Yuan grabbing the Mandate of Heaven from them?

From what i can gather, they were just chilling out in Beijing. the prince regent wasn't especially good at politics and after he abdicated his position he seemed far mor relieved to just raise his kids. Assuming the xinhai emperors dont get so paranoid about them they'll probably be left alone.

 

[KingSweden24]

From what i can gather, they were just chilling out in Beijing. the prince regent wasn't especially good at politics and after he abdicated his position he seemed far mor relieved to just raise his kids. Assuming the xinhai emperors dont get so paranoid about them they'll probably be left alone.

Right, that’s what happened IOTL (and Zaifeng being bad at politics is… an understatement, haha).

Im just skeptical that Yuan would have been fine with leaving them all alive in the Forbidden City when he’s trying to establish the legitimacy of his new dynasty via power grab. Chinese history is not gentle in that sense. IOTL his self-coup flailed into failure too fast for the Qing to ever be a resolute threat

 

[Meshakhad]

Right, that’s what happened IOTL (and Zaifeng being bad at politics is… an understatement, haha).

Im just skeptical that Yuan would have been fine with leaving them all alive in the Forbidden City when he’s trying to establish the legitimacy of his new dynasty via power grab. Chinese history is not gentle in that sense. IOTL his self-coup flailed into failure too fast for the Qing to ever be a resolute threat

He is dealing with a lesser version of the backlash he faced IOTL. At the moment, the Qing are choosing diplomacy over confrontation with the Xinhai.

This also means that the republican movement in China going forward is likely to be further radicalized.

 

[KingSweden24]

He is dealing with a lesser version of the backlash he faced IOTL. At the moment, the Qing are choosing diplomacy over confrontation with the Xinhai.

This also means that the republican movement in China going forward is likely to be further radicalized.

Interested to see where this heads, I don’t think I’ve seen a “Yuan pulls off Hongxian” POD used before

 

[Meshakhad]

Interested to see where this heads, I don’t think I’ve seen a “Yuan pulls off Hongxian” POD used before

Me neither. Suffice it to say, I have some long-range ideas that a Republic of China would disrupt. This isn't meant to be going anywhere bizarre, beyond China remaining monarchist.

 

[Whiteshore]

I am interested in how this Socialist America would look like.

 

[Meshakhad]

I am interested in how this Socialist America would look like.

I'm going to hold off on any details, but it'll be something like the UASR from Reds! or a Syndicalist CSA from Kaiserreich.

 

[Meshakhad]

…On June 30, 1916, a series of explosions rocked New York City and Jersey City. The source was Black Tom, a peninsula which was being used as a supply depot for arms en route to Russia. The blast killed four people and was felt as far away as Philadelphia[1]…

…An FBI investigation determined that German saboteurs were responsible. However, while there were rumors of sabotage immediately after the event, another theory emerged. Three days after the explosion, the Daily Worker published an article by Leon Bronstein claiming that the sabotage theory was a ruse to cover up negligence by the National Dock and Storage Company. Several workers testified that safety procedures had not been consistently followed. In an accompanying editorial, Daniel DeLeon accused the National Dock and Storage Company of sacrificing worker safety for products, and called for a halt to arms shipments until new safety procedures were in place…

…The explosion further deepened the divide in American society. Suspicion of the IWW ramped up. On July 11, the FBI raided the offices of the Daily Worker, but found no evidence that the IWW was in league with Germany. This in turn convinced many in the anti-war movement, even those not aligned with the IWW, that the explosion had been an accident and the government was trying to use it to bring Americans around to a pro-war position…

…Following the Revolution, documents captured from the FBI offices in New York revealed that German saboteurs probably had been involved[2]. This was confirmed in 1956 after German records were declassified…

- From 1916: The Tinder Year by Barbara Tuchman

[1] OTL.

[2] IOTL, it does appear that the explosion was German sabotage.

 

[piratedude]

I was getting curious about the iww's presence in the arms industry, which will be vital for the revolutionary war effort. Even if they cant gain control of the national armories (mostly spread over the east cost afaik) or the private arms manufacturers (nearly all of which are in Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island), the more important factor would be having that weapons expertise for themselves.