The Fire Never Dies: Labor's Star Ascendant

[htgriffin]

…3. The Chamber of Labor Delegates shall be composed of members elected every year for three-year terms by the members of the Labor Unions. Labor Delegates shall be elected by popular vote of their unions, which shall be apportioned by membership…

Well, less prone to Rotten Borough syndrome than the State By State basis unless Unions can empty out without being dissoved.

…The language of the bills passed was generally similar. All agreed that the convention should only occur once all hostilities had ceased and it became possible for every state to elect delegates. The task of organizing the convention would be left to the GDC. The major difference was the purported agenda. Many states were explicitly calling for a new constitution, but some states – mostly those that had had relatively little socialist presence in local politics before the war – simply called for “major revisions”. California was the most conservative, agreeing only that there was “an obvious requirement for amendments”. Governor Johnson quickly emerged as head of the “revisionist” faction which wanted to preserve the basic structure of the US government…

The whole Healthy Debate situation looks promising.

The resulting elections were somewhat controversial, but ultimately proved to be fair. Most states elected SLP-dominated slates. Only three states were dominated by revisionists, but as those three were California, Delaware, and Texas, it was clear that the non-socialists would have a significant voice…

Did not Florida surrender intact as well, or was the situation dire enough that the existing Governor/Legislature settled for "Don't execute us or jail us for too long" rather than "Remain Seated."

…The convention would also not be limited to the states. Alaska and Puerto Rico were very adamant that they be included.

The Navajo were the only Native American tribe to attend under their own banner, although several other states had elected some Native delegates. Finally, the District of Columbia was allowed to send a delegation…

So we are looking at four admissions (possibly three, if Alaska's population is still too small).

BTW, which wannabe USA Government In Exile is trying to get Guam back?

How are they elected every year but have three year terms? I am confused

Staggered Elections similar to OTL's Senate, I imagine.

 

[DocMatoi]

How are they elected every year but have three year terms? I am confused

i think its meant that 1/3 of them will be up for re-election every year

 

[Beaux Arts & Crafts]

…2. The House of People’s Representatives shall be composed of members elected every second year for two-year terms by the people of the Commonwealths. People’s Representatives shall be elected by popular vote of their respective districts, which shall be apportioned by population…

…3. The Chamber of Labor Delegates shall be composed of members elected every year for three-year terms by the members of the Labor Unions. Labor Delegates shall be elected by popular vote of their unions, which shall be apportioned by membership…

hm if we're keeping and even shortening the terms for members of congress i wonder how that would effect the pace of legislation...i mean if you only have a year before election time wouldn't they be incentivized to spend most of that year campaigning rather than actually working in congress

 

[Worffan101]

Dinetah should absolutely be admitted as a state of the ASU if they go for the federal model (and they should).

 

[Meshakhad]

Will ASU's Ideology be stated in the Constitution?

Yes.

Did you mean that they would not have a significant voice?

No. There will be a sizeable presence of non-socialists at the Convention.

How are they elected every year but have three year terms? I am confused

i think its meant that 1/3 of them will be up for re-election every year

Exactly. Like the Senate.

So does this mean that the new constitution will use first-past-the-post in its elections? While the existence of a house of representatives as a concession to the moderates and/or non-socialists makes sense, it seems weird that the socialists would accept FPTP. Proportional representation was definitely in the American consciousness at the time.

Haven't decided yet. If it were my ideal scenario, they'd adopt ranked choice voting, but proportional representation might win out.

Well, less prone to Rotten Borough syndrome than the State By State basis unless Unions can empty out without being dissoved.

My plan is to use the IWW's system of industrial unions as a basis. Unions will be organized on an industry-wide scale. As mentioned in the text, unions receive representation based on their membership. The fate of a union that loses too many people will usually be to merge with another union.

The whole Healthy Debate situation looks promising.


Did not Florida surrender intact as well, or was the situation dire enough that the existing Governor/Legislature settled for "Don't execute us or jail us for too long" rather than "Remain Seated."

The latter. As with Texas, the Florida state government was replaced with a socialist one, but the governor, cabinet secretaries, and legislators were simply sent home rather than being jailed.

So we are looking at four admissions (possibly three, if Alaska's population is still too small).

Alaska and the Navajo will both be admitted. The socialists are of the mind that if they can get organized enough to actually petition for independence, they can run themselves. The Navajo might want some special status - there's a faction that wants outright independence, and the only reason they aren't dominating is that an independent Navajo Nation would be an enclave within the ASU. Both Puerto Rico and Hawaii are wavering between statehood (or rather commonwealth status) and independence. Hawaii will probably go for independence, while Puerto Rico is up in the air (the sentiment is there, but the guy in charge is against independence).

BTW, which wannabe USA Government In Exile is trying to get Guam back?

Both Sharp and Longworth sent official protests to the Japanese, who pointed out that the United States basically pawned Guam and the Philippines to Japan and is in no position to pay them back. Sharp is trying to get the British to hand over the US Virgin Islands, while Longworth is trying to raise money from American expatriates to purchase a British or French colony (he thinks it would be a very bad idea to establish a US government in exile anywhere near the ASU.

Dinetah should absolutely be admitted as a state of the ASU if they go for the federal model (and they should).

It will be, possibly with some special autonomous status. I'm really unsure of how to handle the rest of the Native Americans. Land back isn't an option, and most of the reservations are far too small to become commonwealths of their own.

 

[falcon]

Maybe some sort of federation where the various reservations become one geographically separated commonwealth?

or maybe they get special, non-voting representatives and guaranteed reparations.

 

[Enzo]

Staggered Elections similar to OTL's Senate, I imagine.

i think its meant that 1/3 of them will be up for re-election every year

Exactly. Like the Senate.

Rigth, i didn't know that the United States has this system, it's not like this in my country. I am not too sure how it works, but i can research on my own from now on. Thanks for answering.

 

[htgriffin]

It will be, possibly with some special autonomous status. I'm really unsure of how to handle the rest of the Native Americans. Land back isn't an option, and most of the reservations are far too small to become commonwealths of their own.

Depending on how much power various state governments will have, perhaps setting up the ones too small to go it alone as Second Order Administrative Divisions (AKA County-or-Parish Equivalents) with ironclad set-asides in terms of legislative representation would do.

 

[Worffan101]

It will be, possibly with some special autonomous status. I'm really unsure of how to handle the rest of the Native Americans. Land back isn't an option, and most of the reservations are far too small to become commonwealths of their own.

Just make Dinetah an equal state. Other Native nations are a tougher matter but at a minimum giving them some kind of "autonomous county" status and giving them equal negotiation standing could help.

Biggest issue is probably gonna be that the Hopi are gonna be PISSED that the Dine get a state. The Hopi and Dine have bad blood because the Dine assimilated Hopi refugees in the 18th century and reclaimed their original territory. So you have Dine-speaking people (acknowledged by the Dine as being of Hopi ancestry) living as culturally Dine but occupying Hopi irredenta. Lawsuit city.

 

[NotStaleBread]

Haven't decided yet. If it were my ideal scenario, they'd adopt ranked choice voting, but proportional representation might win out.

I personally favor Single Transferable Vote as an electoral system, and just as a matter of how well-known/popular the various kinds of proportional representation there are during that period, it seems like it was very popular with proponents of proportional representation to the point that all the cities that adopted PR in the early 20th century went with STV (to my knowledge). Of course, it's your story and ranked choice voting is at least better than First Past The Post so you should write what you feel is best.

 

[Workable Goblin]

The Navajo might want some special status - there's a faction that wants outright independence, and the only reason they aren't dominating is that an independent Navajo Nation would be an enclave within the ASU.

Not only that, but an independent Navajo Nation would be really poor and have lots of boundary issues (the reservation is...not exactly compact).

I am surprised that none of the other Nations are sending delegates though. At least, I'd think that some of Oklahoma tribes would try to gin something up--the Osage, at least, had a very good position at this point thanks to having recently discovered large oil reserves under their lands that they had successfully negotiated control of (IOTL, though before 1910), so they would surely be very anxious to try to preserve this control to give them a source of wealth independent of the ASU. Other tribes might not have such an enormous incentive to get involved (in 1923 the Osage earned $30 million in royalties, or over $500 million in today's money), but with the Navajo and Osage being involved they would probably try to tag along and see what they can get.

 

[Worffan101]

The Navajo might want some special status - there's a faction that wants outright independence, and the only reason they aren't dominating is that an independent Navajo Nation would be an enclave within the ASU.

An independent Dinetah would be an economic basket case and screwed by the very first revanchist asshole to get elected in the ASU. MUCH better to be a state in the union and thereby pull at the levers of power directly.

Both Puerto Rico and Hawaii are wavering between statehood (or rather commonwealth status) and independence. Hawaii will probably go for independence, while Puerto Rico is up in the air (the sentiment is there, but the guy in charge is against independence).

This depends on who is in charge in Hawaii. If it's Hawaiian natives they're probably at least willing to be some kind of associate for defense, especially since the ASU is trying to do better by Native Americans. If it's white White supporters, they're probably going to try going full Taiwan but with Japan as their backer or something.

Puerto Rico is going to be the same way. Depending on how much visible lower-class Latino support there is for the GDC (I would expect a lot given the socialists are friendly to Mexican leftist), there's a good chance the population is like "well, sure it's the former imperialist master, but we need someone with lots of guns to protect us from invasion*, and the GDC is openly in favor of racial equality".

*It's been like 30 years since Africa was literally carved up by imperialists drawing lines on a map, and everybody and his uncle has heard of the Congo Free State and probably about how Leopold of Belgium's goon squad literally ate a child in front of her dad. You would have to be an idiot to want to be a small, strategically important island with little military industry and a shaky economy in 1917.

 

[Whiteshore]

Both Sharp and Longworth sent official protests to the Japanese, who pointed out that the United States basically pawned Guam and the Philippines to Japan and is in no position to pay them back. Sharp is trying to get the British to hand over the US Virgin Islands, while Longworth is trying to raise money from American expatriates to purchase a British or French colony (he thinks it would be a very bad idea to establish a US government in exile anywhere near the ASU.

On that note, any news from the Japanese-occupied Philippines and whether they plan to directly occupy it indefinitely or set up a puppet Philippine Republic?

 

[Meshakhad]

Not only that, but an independent Navajo Nation would be really poor and have lots of boundary issues (the reservation is...not exactly compact).

I am surprised that none of the other Nations are sending delegates though. At least, I'd think that some of Oklahoma tribes would try to gin something up--the Osage, at least, had a very good position at this point thanks to having recently discovered large oil reserves under their lands that they had successfully negotiated control of (IOTL, though before 1910), so they would surely be very anxious to try to preserve this control to give them a source of wealth independent of the ASU. Other tribes might not have such an enormous incentive to get involved (in 1923 the Osage earned $30 million in royalties, or over $500 million in today's money), but with the Navajo and Osage being involved they would probably try to tag along and see what they can get.

The Navajo have de facto independence at the moment (courtesy of their deal with Pancho Villa). Some of the delegates with other states (particularly Oklahoma) are really there on behalf of their tribes.

An independent Dinetah would be an economic basket case and screwed by the very first revanchist asshole to get elected in the ASU. MUCH better to be a state in the union and thereby pull at the levers of power directly.

Exactly.

This depends on who is in charge in Hawaii. If it's Hawaiian natives they're probably at least willing to be some kind of associate for defense, especially since the ASU is trying to do better by Native Americans. If it's white White supporters, they're probably going to try going full Taiwan but with Japan as their backer or something.

The situation in Hawaii is very tense. The Whites have been dealt with, but there's still tension between the natives, who generally want independence and a defense pact, and the Red Navy, which wants to join the ASU.

Puerto Rico is going to be the same way. Depending on how much visible lower-class Latino support there is for the GDC (I would expect a lot given the socialists are friendly to Mexican leftist), there's a good chance the population is like "well, sure it's the former imperialist master, but we need someone with lots of guns to protect us from invasion*, and the GDC is openly in favor of racial equality".

I'm not as sure about the internal dynamics. As with Hawaii, the choice is "full statehood (maybe with extra cultural autonomy)" or "independence with a defensive pact and basing agreement".

*It's been like 30 years since Africa was literally carved up by imperialists drawing lines on a map, and everybody and his uncle has heard of the Congo Free State and probably about how Leopold of Belgium's goon squad literally ate a child in front of her dad. You would have to be an idiot to want to be a small, strategically important island with little military industry and a shaky economy in 1917.

If they didn't have a defense agreement with the ASU, their independence would last about 5 minutes before the British took over.

On that note, any news from the Japanese-occupied Philippines and whether they plan to directly occupy it indefinitely or set up a puppet Philippine Republic?

I think they'll be setting up a puppet Philippine Republic.

 

[Worffan101]

I'm not as sure about the internal dynamics. As with Hawaii, the choice is "full statehood (maybe with extra cultural autonomy)" or "independence with a defensive pact and basing agreement".

"Extra cultural autonomy" isn't a coherent argument or position in the US statehood context. Look at Utah IOTL, the vast majority of officials are all from the same religion and the laws reflect that.

This isn't the USSR, where the "ethnic autonomies" are glorified bantustans being colonized by Russians at state direction. The USA fundamentally has very, VERY strong provinces in the form of states, and, without dipping too deep into current politics, half the reason the Supreme Court is causing so much drama IOTL is that it's become a de facto legislative tool because the states can't agree on much more than "roads are good, in theory". (this isn't a recent thing, pretty much every big social upheaval in the country has been because the Supreme Court decided to go legislating. Dredd Scott, Plessy, the anti-labor decisions of the Gilded Age, were all clear cases of judicial legislating, and they caused...well, civil war, decades of entrenched segregation, low-level civil unrest for decades...)

 

[Meshakhad]

"Extra cultural autonomy" isn't a coherent argument or position in the US statehood context. Look at Utah IOTL, the vast majority of officials are all from the same religion and the laws reflect that.

This isn't the USSR, where the "ethnic autonomies" are glorified bantustans being colonized by Russians at state direction. The USA fundamentally has very, VERY strong provinces in the form of states, and, without dipping too deep into current politics, half the reason the Supreme Court is causing so much drama IOTL is that it's become a de facto legislative tool because the states can't agree on much more than "roads are good, in theory". (this isn't a recent thing, pretty much every big social upheaval in the country has been because the Supreme Court decided to go legislating. Dredd Scott, Plessy, the anti-labor decisions of the Gilded Age, were all clear cases of judicial legislating, and they caused...well, civil war, decades of entrenched segregation, low-level civil unrest for decades...)

...Yeah, I'm not sure what I had in mind. I feel like there should be something extra for the natives.

 

[Whiteshore]

I think they'll be setting up a puppet Philippine Republic.

Well, maybe that could be another interlude like the one for Europe?

 

[NotQuiteConfident]

I'm not sure Hawaiian independence makes much sense given the composition of Hawaii in 1920 census. Hawaiians only made up around 10% of the total population. By far the largest group were Japanese-Americans who made almost 45%. And wasn't there a bit more Japanese immigration in this timeline as well? Might be even higher here. The White population is about 20% of the 1920 population with the rest mostly being other Asian Americans. I'm not sure there is enough of a majority that would be in favor of independence over staying part of American, maybe with some extra autonomy.

Like, yeah, Hawaiians are probably going to be over-represented in leadership positions now, but I just don't think there's enough of them or others that might want independence to successfully push for independence. Perhaps instead an elevated position for the Hawaiian language and native culture? I'm not sure. Hawaiians need something I think but independence doesn't seem realistic and I'm not sure what else they'd want.

Source for data

 

[SouthernWind]

I'm not sure Hawaiian independence makes much sense given the composition of Hawaii in 1920 census. Hawaiians only made up around 10% of the total population. By far the largest group were Japanese-Americans who made almost 45%. And wasn't there a bit more Japanese immigration in this timeline as well? Might be even higher here. The White population is about 20% of the 1920 population with the rest mostly being other Asian Americans. I'm not sure there is enough of a majority that would be in favor of independence over staying part of American, maybe with some extra autonomy.

This means the Japanese-Americans in Hawaii have a good chance to push for independence by alling with the natives, but using their voting power to "suggest" the new native government to create agreements and trade with Japan. Sure, is not like having the Hawaii as a japanese puppet, but is a perfect way to create a client styate AND remove a powerful position for a future enemy.

Also, I am curious about the Japanese-Americans, not only in Hawaii but California and continental America too: while they might not be for the former white government, I doubt they'll like the new socialist government; thus they might decide to resettle in Hawaii, thus adding more to Jap population there.

And this would mean George Takeshi will born ITTL in Hawaii or somewhere else...

 

[Derekc2]

Actually at least in Seattle it was shown earlier that Japanese-Americans were pretty thoroughly brought into the IWW and became a consticuency of the SLP's voterbase. Also thee were plenty of Japanese-Americans who were part of the Red Guards from at least Washington State in the Second American Revolution ITTL.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the segment of the population that were working class and were most likely to not be part of the SLP's voting base as a demographic were either 'wasps' or assimilated immigrant populations.

So I don't see why Japanese-Americans would be against the Red government.