Should the Austrian Empire exist, and continue to exist? If so, in what form?


  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
Yes but from the sound of it this whole campaign was a nightmare for the Romans. Pulling out, waiting for better weather, and building up their forces would’ve been better. Afterall they’ve not effectively lost a large portion of their military. And have left their European lands rather vulnerable.

Of course pulling back might have allowed the Bulgarians to do the same and render this point moot.

Luckily things look rather secure in Europe. So they should be able to integrate these lands and rebuild their western army.
Functionally the Romans were forced to keep the pressure on Ivan II in 1234; because they’d given him months in the previous year to consolidate his power, and any more would effectively crush any chance they had at quickly mopping up Bulgaria. Of course this forced them to keep pumping men and resources into one major, continuous campaign, that effectively killed most of the Western Army.

The thing is though that the Romans have been complacent with their army structure for near 50 years. It hasn’t changed much besides the reintroduction of the Prefect title and role, as well as the creation of the Lakonoi. It’s still the same army that relies on skilled infantry that are equipped to damage both cavalry and other infantry as it’s core. Such a horrific loss of roughly 18,000 men over the roughly 3 year war period forces the Empire to adapt, and Theodore ‘One-Eye’ is the one to spearhead it.
 
Functionally the Romans were forced to keep the pressure on Ivan II in 1234; because they’d given him months in the previous year to consolidate his power, and any more would effectively crush any chance they had at quickly mopping up Bulgaria. Of course this forced them to keep pumping men and resources into one major, continuous campaign, that effectively killed most of the Western Army.

The thing is though that the Romans have been complacent with their army structure for near 50 years. It hasn’t changed much besides the reintroduction of the Prefect title and role, as well as the creation of the Lakonoi. It’s still the same army that relies on skilled infantry that are equipped to damage both cavalry and other infantry as it’s core. Such a horrific loss of roughly 18,000 men over the roughly 3 year war period forces the Empire to adapt, and Theodore ‘One-Eye’ is the one to spearhead it.
Looks like they’ll be needing to do rebuild this army from the ground up. And introduce new tactics as well.
 
Recently I've been getting ideas of a new timeline (it won't replace this one, don't worry) wherein Greco-Goths from Crimea, in some way, immigrate to the British Isles (namely Wales) during the Viking period of the 9th to 10th centuries.

I'm wondering how you'd even describe that (AIIT?), or if anyone would be interested. It could be unique to explore Britain during this time period, and would allow me to toy around with the Romanitas I already do here, but in a unique way. Thoughts?
 
Recently I've been getting ideas of a new timeline (it won't replace this one, don't worry) wherein Greco-Goths from Crimea, in some way, immigrate to the British Isles (namely Wales) during the Viking period of the 9th to 10th centuries.

I'm wondering how you'd even describe that (AIIT?), or if anyone would be interested. It could be unique to explore Britain during this time period, and would allow me to toy around with the Romanitas I already do here, but in a unique way. Thoughts?
Too small a POD to make it that big of a change imo,
And I don't see how they would ma age to survive the vikings and remain independent.
But what are going to go for with this? Culture change with greek influences? Sooner unification with greek traditions (small).
Idk, need more info
 
Too small a POD to make it that big of a change imo,
And I don't see how they would ma age to survive the vikings and remain independent.
But what are going to go for with this? Culture change with greek influences? Sooner unification with greek traditions (small).
Idk, need more info
Main thing is that the area they’d be landing in an area of Wales with very little centralisation, and they’d be defended from being destroyed early by Wessex to the east and several Welsh statelets to the north. They’d effectively be colonising a chunk of Wales for themselves and expanding.
 
I can’t imagine this TL having too much of an effect. Even if we did have a mass immigration to the British isles, they would be heavily outnumbered by the natives and wouldn’t be able to maintain a strong enough culture or presence to stay independent. A kingdom is even more out of the picture
 
I can’t imagine this TL having too much of an effect. Even if we did have a mass immigration to the British isles, they would be heavily outnumbered by the natives and wouldn’t be able to maintain a strong enough culture or presence to stay independent. A kingdom is even more out of the picture
I see that as a little dismissive as you could have said the same thing about the Turks when they arrived in Anatolia. They didn’t arrive in large numbers until much later, but by the time said large numbers did arrive the Turks had already established a strong presence in which they had converted much of the central Anatolian population to Shamanistic Islam, and had begun producing their own troops and resources from the land in less than a decade.

I can easily see the Roman-Goths setting up a similar system, and the best thing going for them is that they’d be Orthodox; wielding weapons and tactics that would outplay the decentralised southern Welsh and allow them to conquer. Even aside from this Southern Wales is a fertile and beautiful place with ample rain for wet farms and pastures; which is how much of the Crimea’s coastline survived.
 
I see that as a little dismissive as you could have said the same thing about the Turks when they arrived in Anatolia. They didn’t arrive in large numbers until much later, but by the time said large numbers did arrive the Turks had already established a strong presence in which they had converted much of the central Anatolian population to Shamanistic Islam, and had begun producing their own troops and resources from the land in less than a decade.

I can easily see the Roman-Goths setting up a similar system, and the best thing going for them is that they’d be Orthodox; wielding weapons and tactics that would outplay the decentralised southern Welsh and allow them to conquer. Even aside from this Southern Wales is a fertile and beautiful place with ample rain for wet farms and pastures; which is how much of the Crimea’s coastline survived.
I don't think you can compare the Turkish migrations with any possible Romano-Gothic ones- The Turks, by the time they came upon the romans, already populated and controlled Empires. The Romano-Goths barely dominate a principality. A better comparison would be the Anglo-Saxon immigration to Constantinople, where they came to dominate the later Varangians.
Given that you are starting from a smaller population base than Anglo-Saxons, and the Welsh principalities (Unlike Constantinople) are nowhere near famous or wealthy enough to attract mercenaries from so far away, the romano-goths would have to go through a number of wealthier kingdoms in Europe first. All this travel will have to happen in a single generation, before they are assimilated within their host country.
If they do actually manage to get to Wales, as a significant fighting force and retaining their institutions and culture, then sure, they could possibly influence Welsh statelets.
 
I don't think you can compare the Turkish migrations with any possible Romano-Gothic ones- The Turks, by the time they came upon the romans, already populated and controlled Empires. The Romano-Goths barely dominate a principality. A better comparison would be the Anglo-Saxon immigration to Constantinople, where they came to dominate the later Varangians.
Given that you are starting from a smaller population base than Anglo-Saxons, and the Welsh principalities (Unlike Constantinople) are nowhere near famous or wealthy enough to attract mercenaries from so far away, the romano-goths would have to go through a number of wealthier kingdoms in Europe first. All this travel will have to happen in a single generation, before they are assimilated within their host country.
If they do actually manage to get to Wales, as a significant fighting force and retaining their institutions and culture, then sure, they could possibly influence Welsh statelets.
A fair breakdown, but it was more the spirit of the matter between the two; the idea that a small number of Turks could arrive and despite their numbers and foreign culture be able to carve out lands and change the people that lived on them.

The basis for this 'expedition' is more-so based on the attempted Anglo-Saxon colonization of the Crimea, in which they would eventually be assimilated into the Romano-Gothic culture following several events. While this 'colony' of new England is likely fantastical the fact that Anglo-Saxons arrived from England post-William proves the journey could be done.

As for going through wealthier Kingdoms first? I already intended as such, as they'd need to collect various resources beforehand in order to be viable in this matter. Likely collecting supposedly easily grown crops such as Rice (a staple crop is Islamic Iberia) which would come in handy down the line.

This idea is basically just a massive what-if backed up by as many justifications as possible. In order for it to even be interesting this new Gothic Principality in Southern Wales will need to thrive and expand, although if I do eventually do this I don't intend to have it control, for example, all of England plus Wales.
 
As for going through wealthier Kingdoms first? I already intended as such, as they'd need to collect various resources beforehand in order to be viable in this matter. Likely collecting supposedly easily grown crops such as Rice (a staple crop is Islamic Iberia) which would come in handy down the line.
England is not suitable for rice production.Too cold.
 
Looking into further timelines on this forum, the longest lived ones I've seen are those who's authors effectively picked up a patreon, which is surprising to me to be honest.

Functionally the economy here in South Africa is in shambles, and with COVID my working hours have been even more erratic and pay much less than needed, so I'm wondering if I should open up a patreon. Of course though, I'll never paywall the mainline content of the TL--as to do so would be a violation of everything I believe this TL stands for as I write it.

Having a patreon would also allow me to send funds to pay for commissions for things such as character art, and so on, which would greatly improve the quality of the TL.

I'm honestly just wondering if this is viable, and if you as my readers would be willing to donate towards this? I don't want to impose anything or make it seem like its mandatory, since I'll continue the TL regardless.
 
Part 2; 1235
"When I was pressed by a Magyar trader from the north on what business a Bulgarian had speaking Greek I found myself rather offended. I would educate the man in quick order that I was Roman, and that it was Romaic. He seemed surprised, more than anything else," Emporos [1] Stavrakios Ivanos

1235 - The fact that Bulgaria, with its 2 million people and enough land to house twice that [2], seemed to simply drop in John's lap proved a match for the Emperor and his skills at management within the Empire. He was forced to detach much of the bureaucracy his father, and then he, had built up--spreading them out to gather news on populations, resources and infrastructure within the Empire.

What truly caused the most problems, at least within earshot, was the introduction of the infant Maria Asen and her retinue to the court. She was a political prisoner, yes, but she was also a young child who had been the heir to the now defunct Bulgarian Empire. Regardless of this, the Empress Theodora effectively took her in as her own--the weakly framed Bulgarian looking to her kin as the daughter she and her husband could never have [3]. For his own part the Emperor gave her what little attention he could spare between his own wife and son, and the Empire--pushing Heraclius, who was only a year younger than her, to interact and play with her.

When the information he needed was collected by April of 1235 the Emperor was hit with the full wave of the complexity of managing the addition of so much territory all at once; outright wondering to himself how he could pull this sort of thing off. However, he had precedents to lean back on, carving Bulgaria itself up into several Astithematic provinces and shifting in loyal bureaucrats, alongside skilled soldier-officers handpicked from the east by Theodore Laskaris just for this purpose. It was a surprisingly easy affair, as much of the Bulgarian nobility had been wiped out alongside their Tsar outside of Plovdiv, which had forced most of the population to look to the clergy for guidance--which had been how the Bulgarian Patriarch Joachim had seen to it that the state was peacefully disbanded.

Within the half-year point John's attention would abruptly yanked elsewhere, as it would come to him that after having sent those officers for use in the new Astithema that Theodore Laskaris, the great general, had died. Laskaris had been 61 years old, and the last surviving member of Romanos' original allies. Behind him the skilled general left two children, Manuel and Irene Laskaris--his wife having died some years back. Manuel himself would take his position as the new second-in-command of the East, as the eccentric John Komnenos [4] took command, as was by now practice.

What would draw John's attention however was not the death of a family friend, but the sudden arrival of his brother back at Constantinople. Theodore was quite forceful, the one-eyed general effectively pressing his brother, again and again, over a several weak period for one thing; the right to command the Empire's full soldiery stock. Theodore saw it as his duty to be the military arm his brother could not, and thus he demanded control over said army so that he could give it much needed reform.

John held out however, outright leaving Theodore wide-eyed when the Emperor's cold and calculated demeanor came to full view for the Prefect. John was no longer a child who could be pushed around by his much stronger, if younger, brother. He was a near-detached and outright hardened Emperor of 34 years of age, and one who's coldness caused many to fear that he might have them hurt should they press their luck too much.

Yet, in a sign of the fact that--despite his coldness--he still had love and trust with him, the Emperor created the title of 'Megas Prefect' for his sibling. It was noted within the edict used to create it that the role would die with Theodore, no one else would wield it. Said title gave the one-eyed General what he wanted, even if it would later see John Komnenos send angry letters to Theodore questioning his motives.

Thus, throughout the year, the two brothers pushed forward with their plans--although Theodore had been humbled from his experiences with his elder sibling. While John worked on the integration of the Bulgarian state through allowing taxes-in-kind from those settlements who had yet to maintain their own coin stores, Theodore would reform the army from the ground up--integrating many Bulgarian survivors as the cavalry core of the new army who's reforms spread from west to east.

The economy would be stimulated by the draw of new coins to Bulgaria, and its armies would be empowered with hardy stock drawn from the Haemus and Bulgaria proper--even as what little was left of its nobility were carted off to serve in Anatolia (as was precedent) as minor magnates and nobility. Into the Empire's storehouses flowed goods such as wood, iron, grain and much more, as it was the first time the Empire had integrated non-devastated lands that did not need much rebuilding [5].

Such was the scale of this that the Emperor could contemplate something truly Roman, as the Christmas Celebrations began in earnest. Yet, such thoughts would be interrupted by a section of letters--each marked with the seal of the Seljuk Sultan.
---
[1] The native Roman merchant-class would expand considerably following the annexation of Bulgaria--several of these new 'Roman' merchants would be ethnic Bulgarians who grew up as Romans, and made their income trading between the client states of the Empire, as well as minor Hungaria imports and exports from the north.

[2] Bulgaria had, roughly, a population of just over 2 million by this point in its history. With its size it could likely house 4 million peoples, within the medieval period. As it stands this would push the population up to that of the Komnenian Golden Age under John II Komnenos--i.e 12 million.

[3] Theodora nearly died during the birthing of Heraclius, who himself barely survived his first week. She was simply not strong enough to have more children without potential death in childbirth--and the controlling John refused to let his wife risk her life in such a way.

[4] John Komnenos still has a reputation as someone rather 'creepy' after his escapades during the Islamic rebellion that had occurred during the late-middle-years of Romanos V's reign. His tendency to simply indulge in wines and foods following a battle, regardless of how bloody it had been, saw him mislabeled as a cannibal and blood-drinker by many survivors of the rebellion, and such a thing still has an impact now--as he has yet to curb these tendencies.

[5] As you can recall, Anatolia was both inadvertently, and very advertently, decimated during the campaigns of reconquest in order to make it harder for the populations to rebel, or for the Turks to retake it. While the former did eventually occur anyway, the latter is yet to occur--as the Seljuks and Romans have had a tense peace for near a half century.
 
Last edited:
Part 2; Roman mentality with Anatolia
Anatolia, the effective 'homeland' of the Empire following the territorial loss of the Middle-East and Egypt to early Islam. Anatolia, throughout its time as the majority of the Roman territory within the 7th to 11th centuries, would be the prime recruiting ground, and piggy bank, for the Empire. It was from Anatolia that the reconquests under the Makedonians and their in-marriages such as Nikephoros Phokas were propagated.

It's loss to the Turks had effectively hamstrung the Empire, yet the Komnenoi had managed to push back the tide in a functional fashion to reclaim the most important areas of it for the Empire; allowing a new golden age of just over a century to occur. It was after the short 'dark' age of the Angeloi, and the resurgence of the Empire under Romanos V, that most of Anatolia would be recaptured. Yet, the effort effectively destroyed most of Anatolia for decades--and the final wave of conquests and the later rebellions effectively made it clear to both the Romans, and the eastward expanding Seljuks, that to continue to fight over it would simply see them both battered down.

Thus, a status quo was reached between the two, a tense peace for nearly 50 years. In that time the Empire, and its populations, simply became occupied with other things; rebuilding Anatolia, holding onto the regained independence of the Empire's navy and trade economy, and so on. This would only be reinforced by John III's rather consolidating attitude towards Anatolia, and the later near-destruction of the Western Army against the Bulgarians.

It would not be until Heraclius looked east, in his hands a reforged and conquest ready army--with a mission to make those ahead of him bow, that the Empire would once more march against the Turks and reclaim all of Anatolia.
 
I like that the Romans of the eastern Roman empire is finally reasserting its identity. They really need it, to unify their population and boost productivity.
Functionally the Romanitas of the Empire collapsed alongside the Komnenoi, and continued to decline until Constantine XI was forced to try and speak to the 'Greek' nature of his people in an attempt to rise them up.

Here, with the Empire regaining ground, it's only logical that the 'Roman' identity of the Eastern Romans reasserts itself. Although, don't expect them to ever speak Latin again as a first language, lol.
 
Top