The Comatose Giant--China Question

China
How could China not become a world power/be permanently stuck in the second rate or worse division? (Maybe I should move this into the post-1900s thread? Not sure about that). It's always a second-rate power? How could this be possible? "Comatose Giant" as opposed to merely a "Sleeping Giant".
 
How could China not become a world power/be permanently stuck in the second rate or worse division? (Maybe I should move this into the post-1900s thread? Not sure about that). It's always a second-rate power? How could this be possible? "Comatose Giant" as opposed to merely a "Sleeping Giant".


Prevent the Song Dynasty from uniting China and keep China balkanised.
 
China and India have three primary advantages. They have large populations, They have a lot of land and they’re rich in natural resources. If you can somehow reduce the size of their population or have it broken up into a number of different states, you can permanently reduce either one to secondary or tertiary powers. They’re both pretty diverse, although the Chinese are over 90% Han IIRC.
 
China and India have three primary advantages. They have large populations, They have a lot of land and they’re rich in natural resources. If you can somehow reduce the size of their population or have it broken up into a number of different states, you can permanently reduce either one to secondary or tertiary powers. They’re both pretty diverse, although the Chinese are over 90% Han IIRC.
I thought OTL India was a secondary power due to poverty concerns and the detrimental effects of colonialism? So maybe you could have a colonized or semi-colonized China in the 1800s?
 
I thought OTL India was a secondary power due to poverty concerns and the detrimental effects of colonialism? So maybe you could have a colonized or semi-colonized China in the 1800s?
I don’t know that colonialism is a good explanation for India’s issues in modern times. Korea and Taiwan were colonized and they’re both doing very well. The problem with colonizing China, is that several different powers have interests there. Maybe if we have Japan industrialize earlier, we could see China permanently Balkanized and under a cadre of puppet rulers like Manchukuo or the Wāng Jingwei regime.
 
I don’t know that colonialism is a good explanation for India’s issues in modern times. Korea and Taiwan were colonized and they’re both doing very well.

Taiwan and South Korea both had some serious issues until quite recently. It wasn't so long ago that the latter was receiving foreign aid from Kenya.
 
I don’t know that colonialism is a good explanation for India’s issues in modern times. Korea and Taiwan were colonized and they’re both doing very well. The problem with colonizing China, is that several different powers have interests there. Maybe if we have Japan industrialize earlier, we could see China permanently Balkanized and under a cadre of puppet rulers like Manchukuo or the Wāng Jingwei regime.
Korea was never colonized by Europeans. Taiwan had Dutch and Spanish rulers for about 40 years in the 17th Century. Both were occupied by the Japanese (Korea for 35 years, Taiwan for 50), but that really doesn’t compare (economically, at least) to the century of large scale British resource extraction operations in India.
 
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Taiwan and South Korea both had some serious issues until quite recently. It wasn't so long ago that the latter was receiving foreign aid from Kenya.
I’m aware of that.

Korea was never colonized by Europeans. Taiwan had Dutch and Spanish rulers for about 40 years in the 17th Century. Both were occupied by the Japanese (Korea for 35 years, Taiwan for 50), but that really doesn’t compare (economically, at least) to the century of British resource extraction operation in India.
They were colonized by the Japanese. I don’t think that we can blame India’s economic troubles on the British. Colonization had pros and cons. I’m not saying that it was morally justified, because I don’t think that it was. However, the infrastructure that the British built or the fact that English is widely spoken in India are obvious benefits.
 
They were colonized by the Japanese. I don’t think that we can blame India’s economic troubles on the British. Colonization had pros and cons. I’m not saying that it was morally justified, because I don’t think that it was. However, the infrastructure that the British built or the fact that English is widely spoken in India are obvious benefits.

Those are some very uh...interesting pros. Stop covering for colonialism, it's universally a net negative for the colonized.
 
- Remove Tibet. No minerals, fresh water, or secure natural southwest border.
- Remove Xinjiang. No western buffer or oil from that region.
- Remove Inner Mongolia and Manchuria. No vast tracts of highly arable land, coal, metals, oil, you name it.

Without these areas (especially Manchuria), you have a more India-like China, with lots of people but relatively few natural resources to leverage. Also tens of millions of Chinese moved from the overpopulated provinces like Hebei and Shandong to Manchuria in the 20th century, so there would be more population pressures and thus instability in a TL where Chinese doesn't have Manchuria.

We think of a unified China with one Mandarin language and script as a given. Actually the dialects can be wildly different and it's possible to construct highly variant written vernaculars even without abolishing Chinese characters. Cantonese for instance has many written words that Mandarin-only speakers can't make sense of. So there is some possibility for regional balkanization within China proper as well, especially in the south where the dialects are many.
 
Those are some very uh...interesting pros. Stop covering for colonialism, it's universally a net negative for the colonized.
Okay? Are you saying that roads, railways, telepgraph lines, expanded port facilities and a large portion of the population being able to speak the worlds lingua Franca aren’t beneficial?
 
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Okay? Are you saying that roads, railways, telepgraph lines, expanded port facilities and a large portion of the population being able to speak the worlds lingua Franca aren’t beneficial
Being used as piggy banks and resource farms by colonial powers and being made captive markets is not a net positive.
 
I don't want this thread to derail into a colonialism problem. Maybe another possible way for China to become a "comatose giant" could be an even more deadly Taiping Rebellion, with the Taipings winning, but then the country collapses soon after?
 
Destroy the idea of a Chinese proto nation state by having China crash and burn in the Rebellion of the Five Barbarians. Turkicize the entire North China plain and leave a rump state in the Yangtze Delta.
 
Destroy the idea of a Chinese proto nation state by having China crash and burn in the Rebellion of the Five Barbarians. Turkicize the entire North China plain and leave a rump state in the Yangtze Delta.
Such idea actually caught my attention, although I thought that two of the tribes involved in the uprising (Di and Qiang) were linguistically related to Chinese, another couple of tribes (Xiongnu and/or Jie) were at least Yeniseian, and the Xianbei were possibly Mongolic...
 
Being used as piggy banks and resource farms by colonial powers and being made captive markets is not a net positive.
Cool, but you didn’t really answer the question. Were the improvements to India’s infrastructure and the spread of English beneficial?

I don't want this thread to derail into a colonialism problem. Maybe another possible way for China to become a "comatose giant" could be an even more deadly Taiping Rebellion, with the Taipings winning, but then the country collapses soon after?
Sorry.
 

kholieken

Banned
- Remove Tibet. No minerals, fresh water, or secure natural southwest border.
- Remove Xinjiang. No western buffer or oil from that region.
- Remove Inner Mongolia and Manchuria. No vast tracts of highly arable land, coal, metals, oil, you name it.

Without these areas (especially Manchuria), you have a more India-like China, with lots of people but relatively few natural resources to leverage. Also tens of millions of Chinese moved from the overpopulated provinces like Hebei and Shandong to Manchuria in the 20th century, so there would be more population pressures and thus instability in a TL where Chinese doesn't have Manchuria.

We think of a unified China with one Mandarin language and script as a given. Actually the dialects can be wildly different and it's possible to construct highly variant written vernaculars even without abolishing Chinese characters. Cantonese for instance has many written words that Mandarin-only speakers can't make sense of. So there is some possibility for regional balkanization within China proper as well, especially in the south where the dialects are many.
Japan, Taiwan and korea succeed despite that disadvantage. Minerals, Oil, Metals, etc is not necessary for success. As for secure borders, population of North China Plain would overwhelm and negate threat from Independent Tibet, Xinjiang, or Mongolia. The Key of China is North China Plain, which having multiple rivers and fertile soil to generate hundred of millions people. It also didn't have good border once naval tech reach certain point, frequently making it united again even after period of civil war. As long as China had unified North China Plain, it would be difficult to keep it power weakened permanently.
 
Japan, Taiwan and korea succeed despite that disadvantage. Minerals, Oil, Metals, etc is not necessary for success. As for secure borders, population of North China Plain would overwhelm and negate threat from Independent Tibet, Xinjiang, or Mongolia. The Key of China is North China Plain, which having multiple rivers and fertile soil to generate hundred of millions people. It also didn't have good border once naval tech reach certain point, frequently making it united again even after period of civil war. As long as China had unified North China Plain, it would be difficult to keep it power weakened permanently.
I think this is true in the pre-modern age, but having a large population by itself is insufficient for success in the 19th and 20th centuries. Japan failed to become a superpower or even a great power in the true sense; also, its successes were fairly unique and had much to do with the fact that it is an archipelago. Korea and Taiwan too had very specific historical situations that led to their economic rise.

Let's not forget that China suffered several periods of intense disunification in antiquity:
- Warring States era: c. 300 years (500-220 BC)
- Northern and Southern Dynasties: 200-300 years (320-590 AD)
- Ten Dynasties and Five Kingdoms: 80 years from Tang collapse until the victory of the Song Dynasty in late 900s.

In more recent times, the Warlord period saw a great deal of regionalization. Chinese nationalism was not a sure thing, and it could well have failed and been replaced by regional patriotism had foreign powers like Russia or Japan had greater success in tearing off parts of the country and knocking down the fledgling attempts at modern government in China proper.

Sure, in ancient times the geography of China made reunification relatively easy compared with Europe. But in the modern age, once concepts like Westphalian agreements and civic nationalism, and technology like the atom bomb get developed, how is a regime that controls the North China Plain going to pull off invasions of Guangdong, Fujian, Sichuan, Shanxi, Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang, Hunan, and other "renegade provinces?"

Look at OTL Taiwan. Not only do international agreements, trade, and alliances prevent its reunification by the PRC, but the people themselves mostly identify only as Taiwanese despite speaking a mutually intelligible version of Mandarin, and a plurality of those people hold this identify in explicit contrast to being "Chinese."

After 50 years of modern disunity, China would look much more like Europe (or the Middle East!), and the realities of today's geopolitics would keep it that way. People would think of the bygone dynasties as relics of the past, like the Ottoman or Roman empires.
 
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