The Austere Class Battleships

Pardon me if someone has covered this; I didn't see anything last I looked, and I've just been glancing over a few things in Friedman's work to look at the period designs.

As for competing nations, it depends on what time that the the British notify the other nations that they will proceed.

The US considered several design studies in 1928-1929, but only resumed in 1931 any serious continuation of design specimens. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's likely that such a decision would be made in 1930.

Given that, the General Board parameters would likely be the ones from that same period. The first US battleships would retain their turboelectrics. Due to economy, 16" guns would likely be used so that existing 16" turrets from the South Dakota class would be used on them, thus leading to 3x3 16" guns. There were several design studies for the time that attempted to reconcile the need for reducing weight and maintaining firepower and armor. There is an interesting broken forecastle, with the #1 turret on the same deck as the #3 turret on one plan. That is in the standard ABX arrangement for those. There are also several plans for Nelson style designs, though the C turret would always be superfiring on these designs (the B either on same deck as A, or A sunk a deck lower on a broken forecastle. The US General Board did not care for these designs as they worried about a catastrophic hit eliminating all turrets, and did not share the same desire to shorten the armored belt to take as much of an advantage as the British did.

Scheme D in Oct 1928, a conventional design of ABX turrets, with turboelectric and with a monstrous endurance of 20k nm at 10 knots, would only be able to carry 8 guns in two triples and one twin superfiring.

Your secondary armament would likely be the 6"/53 in twin mounts, likely improved from the Omaha variant of the mount for better reload. Here, they'd be placeholders for DP guns, as what became the 5"/38 is still under development at this time, and the board was favorable to twin mounts vice multiple single mount DP guns likes on older vessels.

Other than that, space was allotted for 10 smaller caliber AA guns. Provisions for 4 aircraft and two catapults were planned on all battleships. The catapults would be the cross-deck variety but on the quarterdeck (vs midship on British vessels).

Machinery as mentioned would be turboelectric. Speed would be in the 21-23 knot range. The 16"/50 on the South Dakota class would demand enough weight that it'd be likely be traded for the 16"/45 (the 16"/50 designs tended to have short belts of 12' vs the 16' 6" of the 16"/45 design belts).

So, for your first two ships ordered, they'd likely be variants of one of the above and would likely appear similar to a slow, turboelectric version of OTL North Carolina. Perhaps call them the Slowboat (Vs NC's Showboat). They'd effectively be an improved Colorado class. After C & D are ordered, you'll see the US starting to look at larger changes, perhaps leading to geared turbines and similar.

I imagine most future designs will be devoted to maintaining superiority in firepower vs British vessels individually while also slowly changing to combat the Japanese designs.
 
But you have to have enough credit to bankroll the industrial process until the economy picks up. Especially in a parliamentary system where governments are subject to no confidence votes it may be difficult to push budgets with such expenditures through instead of short term relief measures.

More government bonds should serve - more create jobs than just providing relief

As part of that - building more stuff
 
Twin quad KGV?
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Just a quick chop job on drawing from Shipbucket.

Very close to what I had envisaged

Like a Nelson and a KGV had a baby but with the 3 x MK1 (N) Twin 15s fwd

So I am not sure if you have included the hangers in the design?

I had a look at Ship bucket last night. Looks daunting! :eek:

I totally agree with the other posters that a pair of triples or even a pair of Quads would be 'better'

But I am not trying to create the perfect design only the 'good enough' design with the idea that the reusing of the 15" twins (maybe with the more modern 15"/45 caliber guns?) being core to that idea.
 
Twin quad KGV?
upload_2019-6-4_13-53-8-png.463595
I get this is a quick cut and paste but it think it would be changed by RN,
- they probably don't want all forward main guns so a one front one back split.
- the DP/light AA guns could be moved to better arcs as well as the hangar with so much now free space.
 
Very close to what I had envisaged

Like a Nelson and a KGV had a baby but with the 3 x MK1 (N) Twin 15s fwd

So I am not sure if you have included the hangers in the design?

I had a look at Ship bucket last night. Looks daunting! :eek:

I totally agree with the other posters that a pair of triples or even a pair of Quads would be 'better'

But I am not trying to create the perfect design only the 'good enough' design with the idea that the reusing of the 15" twins (maybe with the more modern 15"/45 caliber guns?) being core to that idea.

If anything, split the class into Austere I and II, and have some reusing mounts (that way you still have spares), and others with new Mk. II guns. That way, you can take the old mounts off the least capable ships rather than just the oldest.

I'm picturing something like a really cut-down L3 (L2 since they're twin turrets?) battleship, 2 turrets fore and one aft.

For more balanced designs on the tonnage, might it be better to go with a 28.5kn top speed and keep the battlecruisers if you need something faster?
 
If anything, split the class into Austere I and II, and have some reusing mounts (that way you still have spares), and others with new Mk. II guns. That way, you can take the old mounts off the least capable ships rather than just the oldest.

I'm picturing something like a really cut-down L3 (L2 since they're twin turrets?) battleship, 2 turrets fore and one aft.

For more balanced designs on the tonnage, might it be better to go with a 28.5kn top speed and keep the battlecruisers if you need something faster?

If anything the later ships just get larger and retain a 30 knot top speed???
 
If anything the later ships just get larger and retain a 30 knot top speed???

The only issue with that I can see is that this design is a Treaty-compliant one as is, so a larger design would only come about if the Treaty falls apart or an escalator is invoked, and in that case, a new design would have to respond to that threat environment
 
Chapter 2 - Comrade Lenin
Russian Ship building program 1933-1942

"The Lenin Class"


In 1932 Russia started an ambitions plan to lay down a fleet of 15 super dreadnoughts to rival and eventually exceed the other fleets of the worlds leading naval powers

But it soon became apparent that Russia had neither the experience in ship design nor the industry to create such a ship let alone build a fleet of them.

So the designers – terrified of failure came up with a less ambitious plan.


They would build a 30,000 ton vessel that effectively copied the new British design and one that would utilise the existing triple 12” turrets that adorned 6 of Russia's existing battleships.

Vital to this idea was the plans for the rebuilt British Mk1 (N) that a 'useful fool' at Vickers - a junior draughtsman who was able to supply his new 'girlfriend' with photo's of the full plans of the revised gun system and importantly this included many of the post Jutland safety features that the British were incorporating into their rebuilt turrets.


So rather than delay the project still further the plan instead evolved in creating 6 ships using the 18 'available' Triple 12” Turrets that the designers believed that mother Russia 'could' build 'now' while the on going issues with the Object 23 battleship plans were over come.

Russia therefore became the only other nation apart from the British Empire to reuse old turrets in a modern hull in an attempt to bring sufficient numbers of 'modern' battleships into service.


These ships were intended to operate in a littoral environment to safeguard Russian interests in the Baltic and Black Sea's against anything the resurgent German Navy might be able to send against them.

At the time this was believed to be up to 6 Panzerschiff of which 3 were already built or building by 1933.

It was believed that a 30,000 ton design armed with 9 x 12” guns with 2 fwd and one aft turret capable of 29 knots and armoured against its own guns would easily out match the German Panzerschiff design.


The Idea of having an all fwd turret design like the British Austere and French Dunkerque classes (both of which were being built by the time Stalin gave the go ahead for the first 3 ships in 1934) were rejected in favor of a more conventional turret layout.

Construction of the first 3 ships and modification of the old turrets was delayed mainly due to the loss of skilled designer, engineers and draughtsman during the on going purges that were inflicted on the Russian peoples during this time.


It is perhaps fortunate that the decision had been made to build the smaller design as Russia's ability to actually build the 'Stalin's Republics' design was never fully realized before the USSR found itself embroiled in the 2nd Great war and none were laid down.

It is very likely that had they attempted to push ahead with the more ambitious design none would have been finished in time leaving the Russian navy to rely upon its legacy fleet of older vessels to carry the burden in the Baltic and Black seas.

For example the first 16” gun was not built until 1942 (and ended up used as railway artillery)

Also Russia's ability to produce armor plate was such that it was never capable of producing a belt of greater than 9.1” forcing the designers to use a layered approach that placed further compromises on the 'Moskva' class Battleships as they became known.


The eventual design ended up being 33,000 tons with a main belt of 9”, and 4.5” deck armor over the magazines and Machinery. A smaller internal belt was included to provide further protection of the Magazines and turrets.

A pugliese underwater protection system was used even though testing during building resulted in disappointing results.

Propulsion was 3 shafts driven by Brown Boveri type Turbines with the steam provided by 3 Triangle type boilers that developed 100,000 SHP

Armament – consisted of 3 x Triple 12” Turrets – on the center line with one aft and 2 forward – the 2nd mounted in a super firing fashion. Each gun had 100 shells for a total of 900 rounds carried.

The gun had been rebuilt taking design features from the British plans and like the British design reversed the Shell and 'powder' magazines and increased the elevation of the guns to 35 degrees which allows them to shoot much further.

Secondary armament consisted of 8 x 57-caliber B-38 152mm (6”) guns mounted in four dual MK-4 turrets. Each gun was supplied with 170 rounds for a total of 1320 rounds

A further 8 x 56-caliber 100mm B-34 DP guns in four twin MZ-14 turrets with 400 rounds per gun for a total of 3200 rounds.

Delays in the production of these DP turrets resulted in some vessels entering service with only 2 fitted and having to wait until future refits before having them installed although all had been refitted before 1942

K-61 37mm Automatic guns in quad and twin mountings would also eventually be fitted with no 2 ships having the same layout due to refits, availability of guns and the increasing demand to increase AAA as the war progressed.


The First ship 'Oktobriyskaya Revolutsiya'* was laid down in October 1936 in the Leningrad shipyard with 2 more hulls following suit over the next 6 months at other ship yards. 'Zarchiovite' in the Severodvinsk ship yard and 'Lenin' in the Nikolayev shipyard

The turrets were drawn from a number of older battleships that were either decommissioned and in one case 3 turrets recovered from the sea during the early 20s that had been mounted on the Imperatritsa Mariya which sank after a magazine fire in 1916.

The next 3 ships 'Frunze', '25 oktyabrya' and 'Stalin' were laid down in the same slip ways after their 3 sister had been launched between 1938 and 1939.


OOC: *this is a working title I am sure that a Russian ships named in the 30s would have a glorious and meaningful name fully intended to honor the great workers paradise that was the Soviet Union at the time. I have not thought up names for the 2nd 3 ships. I run out of steam for names. Any suggestions will be appreciated comrades.

OOOC: Thank you to Comrades WaterproofPotatoes and Ferd42 for the naming suggestions which I have now used
 
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The only issue with that I can see is that this design is a Treaty-compliant one as is, so a larger design would only come about if the Treaty falls apart or an escalator is invoked, and in that case, a new design would have to respond to that threat environment
The advantage of RN in ITTL over OTL is that since they are building faster later on due to better and more used industry they can more easily cope with the late change and go to a 40+,000t 8 guns ship once the escalator clause is invoked as OTL.
 
OOC: *this is a working title I am sure that a Russian ships named in the 30s would have a glorious and meaningful name fully intended to honour the great workers paradise that was the Soviet Union at the time. I have not thought up names for the 2nd 3 ships. I run out of steam for names. Any suggestions will be appreciated comrades.

You could name them after (preferably dead) Old Bolsheviks, such as Lenin, Frunze... and one more of your choice, those are your big two by 1930.

Then there are events- Oktobriyskaya Revolutsiya, 25th of October, etc.
 
OOC: *this is a working title I am sure that a Russian ships named in the 30s would have a glorious and meaningful name fully intended to honour the great workers paradise that was the Soviet Union at the time. I have not thought up names for the 2nd 3 ships. I run out of steam for names. Any suggestions will be appreciated comrades.
You could have the Lenin class, first ship Lenin, second ship Stalin, to show how Stalin is clearly Lenin's dispel. Or the Zarchiovite (shock) workers maybe?
 
You could name them after (preferably dead) Old Bolsheviks, such as Lenin, Frunze... and one more of your choice, those are your big two by 1930.

Then there are events- Oktobriyskaya Revolutsiya, 25th of October, etc.
You could have the Lenin class, first ship Lenin, second ship Stalin, to show how Stalin is clearly Lenin's dispel. Or the Zarchiovite (shock) workers maybe?

Thanks guys - going edit the 'Russia Post' using those naming suggestions
 
Why not use the old turrets for the first batch while working on triple or quad turrets fo the latter classes.
 
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