That Wacky Redhead

[wolf_brother]

In the Second World, on the other hand, this marks the culmination of a series of morale-boosting events throughout the early 1970s. Although the perilous tensions of the earlier phases of the Cold War have not reasserted themselves in this period, the Communist bloc is certainly not above a great deal of gloating on their part.

But as always, what both the First and the Second World (and the Third World, for that matter) have in common is how their media, or their popular culture, works to define the parameters for success or failure, and usually in relative terms. What varies is the reference point: it can be other points in time, other countries, or even other timelines...

I wonder if we could get an update on butterflies affecting non-Western (e.g. Eastern Bloc) countries?

 

[THE OBSERVER]

Should be interesting. Especially with Hubert the happy warrior!

 

[Lizzie_Harrison]

There will be a return to a previously-mentioned, and much-beloved, British property, and how its latest incarnation will be received by audiences, particularly Americans.

[...]

Our exploration of pop culture will continue with a look at other British television, particularly comedy series of the era.

And we'll finally take an in-depth look at the longer-term political destinies of the three largest economies in the Anglosphere...

All of these sentences excite me in different ways.

 

[ChucK Y]

Back in high school, the entire student body was given the opportunity to attend a full-text reading of Hamlet, which for whatever reason I did not attend. But by all accounts, the production was terrible, so I'm glad I was able to dodge that bullet. I don't believe I've even seen a live performance of Shakespeare, actually.

I have been fortunate enough to have seen a couple of live professional performances of Shakespeare's plays, including one performance in the Globe Theater in London.

 

[e of pi]

I have been fortunate enough to have seen a couple of live professional performances of Shakespeare's plays, including one performance in the Globe Theater in London.

I've similarly seen several Shakespeare performances--Taming of the Shrew, Hamlet, Midsummer's Night's Dream, Romeo and Juliet...and they were all improved in seeing them in person vs. simply reading them.

 

[stevep]

I've already received an official request from you to eliminate Mrs Thatcher, but nice try We'll find out more about British politics in this very cycle, and that includes finally getting around to some other, previously unanswered questions.

Brainbin

You can't blame a guy for trying, especially given the damage she did. Also I think its true that a government that exists only to enrich the establishment is not likely to spend on improving real education for ordinary people. Why should the US have all the luck. [Also if the reaction against Space lunacy and continued Democratic dominance of the Presidency means say a Reagan Presidency in 1976, that could well provide some deterrent against Thatcterism in Britain].

Anyway, great TL and looking forward to seeing what develops. Especially hoping that Liz Sladen still gets a role with the Doctor and what else comes along. [Am I treating you enough like royalty.]

Steve

 

[phx1138]

fandom - maybe only a vocal minority, but it will exist - can be incredibly petulant, selfish, and hostile.

Sadly true. (Never mind the true loonies. I'll say it again: if you've never read Harlan's essay "Xenogenesis" in IAsfm, read it. It will infuriate you. And it will, I daresay, make you ashamed to belong to the SF/fantasy fandom...the same fandom as the loons.)

Canadian networks tended more toward light, whimsical entertainment for children (The Friendly Giant or Mr. Dressup, for example)

I find myself thinking that was budget-limited, & audience-limited. Don't forget, even Canadian gameshows, which are about as cheap a show as it's possible to make, didn't offer genuinely big-ticket prizes.

"Can-Con"

Am I wrong that hadn't passed yet?

I've already received an official request from you to eliminate Mrs Thatcher

I have a sense that may not be avoidable. If it is, add my name to the list wanting to push her in front of a Tube train.

That's right, we read Lord of the Flies the same year as Animal Farm. We got to see the movie, too - the original 1963 version, not the 1990 "reimagining".

I have a vague recollection we were shown it, too, but it's been a long time. As to the year, no idea if it was the same year. Don't think so, but I wouldn't want to swear on it.

I doubt Lucas would concede to a lower-budget film. It's become obvious in the 35 years since the original was released that he very deeply resents all the compromises that he was forced to make, even IOTL - all things considered, he had a sweetheart deal going with Alan Ladd, Jr., and, especially after having sacrificed his principles to make American Graffiti, I don't think he'll want to do so again anytime soon. Remember, that legendary ego of his didn't just sprout up out of nowhere.

Fair enough. Nor, as said, was I (am I) advocating for same.

So you're mentioning potential effects on 1980s youth culture. We'll definitely have occasion to talk about that - when we get there. Whenever that may be!

Discuss at your convenience. Just offering things to consider. If it makes you think of anything intriguing, so much the better.

Well, I've just revealed my list of collaborators and they're all very helpful and friendly. I hope that I've offered the same courtesy to those asking for my help and advice

I daresay. I also daresay you're easier to work with than me. (I get grumpy.)

 

[NCW8]

To be fair, my interpretation is mostly inferential. Surely, surely there would have to be some people who couldn't help but think "we were doing just fine for nearly a decade before we had to start appealing to those Yanks". Also, I'm making this assessment partly based on information that I've not yet divulged. Suffice it to say that, even though NBC and Desilu have been fairly non-interventionist so far, that's going to change...

Possibly, but it's worth remembering that at this time Dr Who was far more of a mainstream programme in th UK than Star Trek was in the US. This means that the Dr Who fandom would be far less fanatic.

Still I can see that there would be some US influences if the series is being aimed at an American audience. For example, the Terran Empire episodes (such as The Frontier in Space and The Mutants) would be written differently as American SF often considers empires to be intrinsically evil. Indeed The Mutants with its background of Decolonisation might not be as accessible to American audiences as it was to Britsh ones of the time.

I like that justification; I think I'll co-opt it wholesale

You're welcome!

I'm interested in seeing what you come up with for British Comedy. Will you be looking at radio comedy as well as TV? For the BBC they are somewhat interlinked, even if the Beeb hadn't yet got in the habit of turning successful radio shows into TV series. For example, the stars of that iconic seventies comedy The Goodies had appeared in 1967 with John Cleese in the Radio series I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again.

Cheers,
Nigel

 

[stevep]

I have a sense that may not be avoidable. If it is, add my name to the list wanting to push her in front of a Tube train.

phx1138

Now that's not very nice. Travelling on the tube is bad enough without you introducing unpleasant disruptions. Don't you have any compassion for the poor commuter?

Seriously, I'm not a malicious person and wouldn't want even her dead. Just prevented from doing the damage she did to my country. Possibly having her poisonous views render the Tories incapable of power until they get some morality and judgement back.

Steve

 

[Glen]

Brainbin

You can't blame a guy for trying, especially given the damage she did. Also I think its true that a government that exists only to enrich the establishment is not likely to spend on improving real education for ordinary people. Why should the US have all the luck. [Also if the reaction against Space lunacy and continued Democratic dominance of the Presidency means say a Reagan Presidency in 1976, that could well provide some deterrent against Thatcterism in Britain].

Anyway, great TL and looking forward to seeing what develops. Especially hoping that Liz Sladen still gets a role with the Doctor and what else comes along. [Am I treating you enough like royalty.]

Steve

Agree with the desire for Lis Sladen to still show up as Sarah. Her casting ITTL as the next companion is definitely plausible if not inevitable.

Possibly, but it's worth remembering that at this time Dr Who was far more of a mainstream programme in th UK than Star Trek was in the US. This means that the Dr Who fandom would be far less fanatic.

Still I can see that there would be some US influences if the series is being aimed at an American audience. For example, the Terran Empire episodes (such as The Frontier in Space and The Mutants) would be written differently as American SF often considers empires to be intrinsically evil. Indeed The Mutants with its background of Decolonisation might not be as accessible to American audiences as it was to Britsh ones of the time.

I just watched the Mutants funnily enough. It will work fine for Americans though they are as likely to think of Rome as London. In their depictions of the Terran Empire none are particularly flattering so again the Americans are okay.

 

[Falkenburg]

I bow to no-one in my antipathy for Thatcher and her Government.
That said, Britain in the late '70s needed some kind of toxic shock to purge itself of some of the economic nonsense it had swallowed.
Thatcher as an emetic?

Oddly enough it's possible that the more optimistic cultural environment might actually smooth Mrs T's path to power.
Less internal Tory resistance, more enthusiasm among the public for a ''Brighter Future"?

Depends how Britain fares in the mid-to-late '70s, I suppose.
There doesn't, at the moment, appear to be anything that will substantially shift the general drift of British society.
Absent such it seems little more than wishful thinking to hope that Thatcher (Or someone worse ) can be kept out of Number Ten.

I would also like to add my voice to those objecting to Her being pushed in front of a Tube.
Never mind the disruption. What about the poor Driver?

Maybe She is listening to the radio whilst having a bath and that shelf Dennis was supposed to fix gives way?
Splishy splashy. "And now the News" <creak> Plop! Fzzzzt! So very sad.

Falkenburg

 

[Glen]

Brainbin

You can't blame a guy for trying, especially given the damage she did. Also I think its true that a government that exists only to enrich the establishment is not likely to spend on improving real education for ordinary people. Why should the US have all the luck. [Also if the reaction against Space lunacy and continued Democratic dominance of the Presidency means say a Reagan Presidency in 1976, that could well provide some deterrent against Thatcterism in Britain].

Anyway, great TL and looking forward to seeing what develops. Especially hoping that Liz Sladen still gets a role with the Doctor and what else comes along. [Am I treating you enough like royalty.]

Steve

Agree with the desire for Lis Sladen to still show up as Sarah. Her casting ITTL as the next companion is definitely plausible if not inevitable.

Possibly, but it's worth remembering that at this time Dr Who was far more of a mainstream programme in th UK than Star Trek was in the US. This means that the Dr Who fandom would be far less fanatic.

Still I can see that there would be some US influences if the series is being aimed at an American audience. For example, the Terran Empire episodes (such as The Frontier in Space and The Mutants) would be written differently as American SF often considers empires to be intrinsically evil. Indeed The Mutants with its background of Decolonisation might not be as accessible to American audiences as it was to Britsh ones of the time.

I just watched the Mutants funnily enough. It will work fine for Americans though they are as likely to think of Rome as London. In their depictions of the Terran Empire none are particularly flattering so again the Americans are okay.

 

[NCW8]

I just watched the Mutants funnily enough. It will work fine for Americans though they are as likely to think of Rome as London. In their depictions of the Terran Empire none are particularly flattering so again the Americans are okay.

I remember that episode as being fairly sympathetic to the Imperial government itself - it was the colonial governor who opposed giving independence to the natives. Still, I admit that it's a long time since I saw it.

Cheers,
Nigel

 

[stevep]

I bow to no-one in my antipathy for Thatcher and her Government.
That said, Britain in the late '70s needed some kind of toxic shock to purge itself of some of the economic nonsense it had swallowed.
Thatcher as an emetic?

Oddly enough it's possible that the more optimistic cultural environment might actually smooth Mrs T's path to power.
Less internal Tory resistance, more enthusiasm among the public for a ''Brighter Future"?

Depends how Britain fares in the mid-to-late '70s, I suppose.
There doesn't, at the moment, appear to be anything that will substantially shift the general drift of British society.
Absent such it seems little more than wishful thinking to hope that Thatcher (Or someone worse ) can be kept out of Number Ten.

Falkenburg

Falkenburg

I don't know. Some kind of response to the union excesses was necessary and virtually inevitable. However I don't think its impossible it could be a demand for reform, rather than blind reaction and a quick swing to the opposite excess.

That's why I was thinking that if you had a Reagan like figure in the US in 76 and he brought the sort of economic turmoil he did OTL people in Britain might think more, 'hell no, we need change but not that!'

Alternatively she does get in, brings depression and chaos and doesn't cut the navy quite so much or some other tweak so that the Argentinian junta doesn't attack. Then you get her removed at the next election and people saying no more swinging between extremes.

Steve

 

[NCW8]

I bow to no-one in my antipathy for Thatcher and her Government.
That said, Britain in the late '70s needed some kind of toxic shock to purge itself of some of the economic nonsense it had swallowed.
Thatcher as an emetic?

Oddly enough it's possible that the more optimistic cultural environment might actually smooth Mrs T's path to power.
Less internal Tory resistance, more enthusiasm among the public for a ''Brighter Future"?

Depends how Britain fares in the mid-to-late '70s, I suppose.
There doesn't, at the moment, appear to be anything that will substantially shift the general drift of British society.
Absent such it seems little more than wishful thinking to hope that Thatcher (Or someone worse ) can be kept out of Number Ten.

Well if Wilson wins the 1970 election, that could mean that the Conservatives win the next time, which is too early for Thatcher to be PM. Then maybe Labour gets back in around 79 (Healy as PM ?). There's still a chance that Thatcher could come to power in the eighties, however.

Cheers,
Nigel

 

[pbaustin2]

A request:
Preventing the Carlton and Granada-isation of ITV ITTL would be good.... keeping it so a franchise could only own 5% of another ITV franchise... Thames Television surviving as a franchisee for London Weekdays... heck the survival of ITV regional identities... London Weekend Television etc. instead of ITV1

 

[Brainbin]

All right, everyone, I understand that Mrs Thatcher was, and remains, a very polarizing figure. However, I ask that you please refrain from discussing her legacy here and now. Most of you don’t want her to become PM ITTL – fair enough. Your requests have been duly noted and will be put into consideration. I must also ask for you to please stop devising gruesome and untimely deaths for her – I realize that these are meant in fun, but they’re incredibly morbid, and can’t help but be coloured by the fact that she is presently in very ill health, and will likely die a slow and painful death (if she isn’t doing so already). This is a pop culture timeline, and despite occasional forays into politics, I do intend to keep it that way, and to maintain a fairly lighthearted tone. Thank you all very much for your understanding.

That said, I continue to welcome speculation on events facing the United Kingdom in the mid-to-late-1970s, and how governments might have responded to them; along with potential replacements for Ted Heath after he vacates the leadership of the Conservative Party, however (and whenever) that may come about.

I wonder if we could get an update on butterflies affecting non-Western (e.g. Eastern Bloc) countries?

Welcome aboard, wolf_brother! That's an excellent and very fair question, however, I would have a great deal of trouble answering it to your satisfaction, for two reasons: First, I speak only two languages, neither of which are Russian (or any Slavic language, for that matter). That makes it far more difficult for me to investigate Soviet pop culture effectively. Also, the very nature of the tightly censored and restricted Soviet media makes the notion of popular culture in those countries problematic. Now, obviously, the state produces programming in capitalist societies as well, but their success is reliant on the public response. But thank you for taking an interest in this timeline

Should be interesting. Especially with Hubert the happy warrior!

Thank you, but we're definitely going to be testing that nickname in the last few years of his term!

All of these sentences excite me in different ways.

Glad to hear it. I hope that the relevant updates will excite you even more still

I have been fortunate enough to have seen a couple of live professional performances of Shakespeare's plays, including one performance in the Globe Theater in London.

That sounds really nice, Chuck I have to admit, if I ever made it to London, visiting the Globe would probably be one of my destinations. Assuming that I had enough time! That's always the problem with visiting one of those World Cities. I happen to live in an aspirational World City, and I've still not seen everything there is to see about it, myself.

I've similarly seen several Shakespeare performances--Taming of the Shrew, Hamlet, Midsummer's Night's Dream, Romeo and Juliet...and they were all improved in seeing them in person vs. simply reading them.

I imagine seeing the comedies, in particular, on stage would be a lot of fun. One of these days, I should avail myself of the opportunity. And one of the most famous Shakespeare festivals in the world - this one - is day-trip distance from where I live. Maybe that might be something for me to do this summer

Anyway, great TL and looking forward to seeing what develops. Especially hoping that Liz Sladen still gets a role with the Doctor and what else comes along. [Am I treating you enough like royalty.]

Thank you, Steve. Ordinarily, I might tell you that flattery will get you everywhere, but it's a very tough call against my selfishness as a writer

And it will, I daresay, make you ashamed to belong to the SF/fantasy fandom...the same fandom as the loons.)

I don't consider myself a member of science-fiction or fantasy fandom. I admire all kinds of speculative fiction, and respect them as legitimate artistic genres, but (as I've said before) I came to love Star Trek as a student of popular culture. That said, all groups of sufficient size and disparity tend to have a vocal minority whose opinions are not representative of the group at large; the best way to oppose them is to make it clear that you, and others in the group, do not subscribe to their interpretations.

I find myself thinking that was budget-limited, & audience-limited. Don't forget, even Canadian gameshows, which are about as cheap a show as it's possible to make, didn't offer genuinely big-ticket prizes.

Indeed not, for two main reasons: risk aversion and economies of scale. Sometimes Canadian broadcasters and producers would defeat the former, only to fall face-first into the latter (witness "The Trouble with Tracy" for an infamous example). We'll see how much luck they have ITTL.

Am I wrong that hadn't passed yet?

It passed in 1972 (under Trudeau, prior to the election in which he's defeated ITTL, but Stanfield will definitely not reverse it). The CBC is anticipating the new regulations.

Possibly, but it's worth remembering that at this time Dr Who was far more of a mainstream programme in th UK than Star Trek was in the US. This means that the Dr Who fandom would be far less fanatic.

That's actually not the case ITTL. Star Trek is at least as popular in the US as Doctor Who is in the UK, probably more so. (Star Trek is also more popular in the UK than Doctor Who is in the US, though Doctor Who is certainly far more popular in the US at this point ITTL than it was IOTL). But I understand your point.

Still I can see that there would be some US influences if the series is being aimed at an American audience. For example, the Terran Empire episodes (such as The Frontier in Space and The Mutants) would be written differently as American SF often considers empires to be intrinsically evil. Indeed The Mutants with its background of Decolonisation might not be as accessible to American audiences as it was to Britsh ones of the time.

When I return to Doctor Who, I'll be sure to consult all of these excellent suggestions I'm receiving

I'm interested in seeing what you come up with for British Comedy. Will you be looking at radio comedy as well as TV?

I'll have to look into that. I already have a lot of ground to cover with television alone, but if any of the focal shows have radio antecedents, I'll be sure to mention those.

Agree with the desire for Lis Sladen to still show up as Sarah. Her casting ITTL as the next companion is definitely plausible if not inevitable.

As you have made clear a great many times in the past, Glen

That's why I was thinking that if you had a Reagan like figure in the US in 76 and he brought the sort of economic turmoil he did OTL people in Britain might think more, 'hell no, we need change but not that!'

It amuses me that everyone is so thoroughly convinced that Reagan (or a "Reagan-like figure" ) will be elected in 1976 ITTL. We'll have to see if you're all right!

There's still a chance that Thatcher could come to power in the eighties, however.

Or a "Thatcher-like figure", for that matter

Preventing the Carlton and Granada-isation of ITV ITTL would be good.... keeping it so a franchise could only own 5% of another ITV franchise... Thames Television surviving as a franchisee for London Weekdays... heck the survival of ITV regional identities... London Weekend Television etc. instead of ITV1

Your request is duly noted. However, I shall have to investigate further before I make any decisions on the matter.

Thank you all for the continuing comments! I really appreciate your interest and active discussion. The next update should be ready in the next few days.

 

[Lizzie_Harrison]

All right, everyone, I understand that Mrs Thatcher was, and remains, a very polarizing figure. However, I ask that you please refrain from discussing her legacy here and now. Most of you don’t want her to become PM ITTL – fair enough. Your requests have been duly noted and will be put into consideration. I must also ask for you to please stop devising gruesome and untimely deaths for her – I realize that these are meant in fun, but they’re incredibly morbid, and can’t help but be coloured by the fact that she is presently in very ill health, and will likely die a slow and painful death (if she isn’t doing so already). This is a pop culture timeline, and despite occasional forays into politics, I do intend to keep it that way, and to maintain a fairly lighthearted tone. Thank you all very much for your understanding.

Brilliantly put, Brainbun. I applaude your diplomacy.

Glad to hear it. I hope that the relevant updates will excite you even more still

As do I.

 

[phx1138]

Now that's not very nice. Travelling on the tube is bad enough without you introducing unpleasant disruptions. Don't you have any compassion for the poor commuter?

Figuratively, of course: which is to say, "push her career under a bus". I imagine she'd be miserable out of office. (Or, as Dennis Miller once said of Clinton, it'd take four strong orderlies, a couple of hypos of tranquilizer, a straight jacket, & a cattle prod to get him out of the White House.)

Seriously, I'm not a malicious person and wouldn't want even her dead. Just prevented from doing the damage she did to my country. Possibly having her poisonous views render the Tories incapable of power until they get some morality and judgement back.

Which is, more/less, what I had in mind. (The drastic solution is more for conspiracy fiction. What was the miniseries where they parked the MP's car {or was it the very PM's car?} on a level crossing...?)

I don't consider myself a member of science-fiction or fantasy fandom.

I meant that in the broader "gentle reader" sense. (Text can be unclear.)

make it clear that you, and others in the group, do not subscribe to their interpretations.

Oh, this is way, way beyond "disagree": this is theft, assault, & stalking. True sickness.

Indeed not, for two main reasons: risk aversion and economies of scale. Sometimes Canadian broadcasters and producers would defeat the former, only to fall face-first into the latter (witness "The Trouble with Tracy" for an infamous example).

I don't think I will ever understand how Canadian producers think.

It passed in 1972 (under Trudeau, prior to the election in which he's defeated ITTL, but Stanfield will definitely not reverse it). The CBC is anticipating the new regulations.

TY.

In ref ITV, a question: is their F1 coverage at all affected? I, for one, would hate to lose Murray Walker's tenure. (I know, the Murrayisms are notorious, but I still think he's the best commentator ever.)

 

[NCW8]

Also, the very nature of the tightly censored and restricted Soviet media makes the notion of popular culture in those countries problematic. Now, obviously, the state produces programming in capitalist societies as well, but their success is reliant on the public response.

The restriction wasn't 100%, at least not for children's programmes. I remember watching east-european cartoons such as Krtek the little Mole in the UK. There were also some dubbed live-action series, such as The White Horses (which the ever reliable Wikipedia states is actually a Yugoslav/West German production)

I'll have to look into that. I already have a lot of ground to cover with television alone, but if any of the focal shows have radio antecedents, I'll be sure to mention those.

Sure - I don't want to put you to more work than necessary.

Or a "Thatcher-like figure", for that matter

Not having a female prime-minister (of either party) in 1979 is going to have at least one impact on popular culture in the UK. It's going to extend the TV career of Mike Yarwood by a couple of years.

Cheers,
Nigel.