Tang Dynasty China Conquers Constantinople (7th Century - 10th Century)

[chornedsnorkack]

Haha, um, about as not-wet as the Sahara is. The Tang, like other Han Chinese dynasties, had their power base in the settled agrarian peoples of the lush North China Plain, and to a lesser extent among the valley peoples of the Yangtze drainage system and southern Chinese coast (ever wonder why Mandarin and Cantonese are so different? Basically all the Chinese south of the North China Plain descends from a different set of branches of Sinitic from the northern variety). The nomads typically lived in the northwest of the plain (in fact, the Great Wall is basically a failed attempt to erect a defense against those peoples) and were generally either rivals of the Han states of north China, conquest dynasties of part or all of China (the Jin even took the plain, then got fucked up by the Mongols, then came back 400 years later after rebranding and took over the whole country), or client governors at times.

Tang did claim Han descent in male line (from Laozi no less). But their powerbase was NOT in North China plain.
The capital of Tang (and Sui) was in Changan, in Shaanxi. And the home of Li family was in Longxi commandery... which is in Gansu.
Settled agricultural people, yes, But settled agricultural people on the border of the steppe, where they are used to mixing with nomads and trying to make them clients. Tang founder Li Yuan´s mother was a Xianbei, not Chinese (and his father, who had been Chinese, died when the boy was 6).

Compare with Han, Song or Ming, which did originate in North China plain.

Northern Zhou called itself a conquest dynasty. Sui and Tang did not. But which dynasty was best placed to actually conquer Eastern Steppe?

 

[XFE]

Compare with Han, Song or Ming, which did originate in North China plain.

The Han was founded in Sichuan then had their base of power in the Guanzhong region, not the North China plain for some 200 years. Nevertheless, North China Plain or not, it still doesn't mean any Chinese straw has the capacity to march halfway across Eurasia and conquer the most fortified city on the world. The Bosporus remains quite far from Central Asia.

 

[Worffan101]

The North China plain is the beating heart of Han civilization, though. While states from outside the plain regularly got control of it, and being a local power was certainly possible for states that didn't control it, control of it was basically essential for being a proper Chinese empire. See: Every major Chinese empire. Every single one had control over the Shandong peninsula and the Yellow River valley, and the loss of those regions was one the Song never recovered from. States that had effective control over the entire region were also historically powerful and wealthy due to the agricultural base, and even today the place is the site of the capital--even the great trading cities of the coasts aren't as important to China as the plain.

 

[alexmilman]

Central Asia isn't some random frozen wasteland.

Yes, it took the Mongols 3 generations to conquer the CA/ME: prices had been started by Genghis and more or less (but not completely) finished by his grandson.
Ditto for the Eastern Europe campaign which of course did not start at Karakoram.

For non-nomadic armies, Russian conquest of the CA formally started in the early XVIII and ended close to the end of the XIX century.

 

[Mort the Reaper]

What motivation would the Tang have to attack the Byzantine Empire? Did they just decide to get belated retribution for the silkworm egg smuggling incident?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

What motivation would the Tang have to attack the Byzantine Empire? Did they just decide to get belated retribution for the silkworm egg smuggling incident?

What motivation did the Göktürk have to attack the Crimea? What motivation did Ögedei have to attack Hungary?
Because he could. Because he wanted to exert his universal rulership.
Genghiz Khan ruled Eastern Steppe by 1206. It took Mongols till 1234 to conquer North China Plain, and till 1276 to conquer Yangtze Valley.
Tang Taizong ruled North China Plain by 624 - and Eastern Steppe by 630.
So what would be needed for the Tang to gain the loyalty of the Eastern Steppe nomads to the extent that they could send them past Caspian Sea and expect obedience, the way Mongols could?

 

[Admiral Fischer]

What motivation did the Göktürk have to attack the Crimea? What motivation did Ögedei have to attack Hungary?

Nomads, by their nature, are migratory.

 

[Teriyaki]

What motivation would the Tang have to attack the Byzantine Empire? Did they just decide to get belated retribution for the silkworm egg smuggling incident?

*giggles*

 

[alexmilman]

What motivation did the Göktürk have to attack the Crimea? What motivation did Ögedei have to attack Hungary?
Because he could. Because he wanted to exert his universal rulership.
Genghiz Khan ruled Eastern Steppe by 1206. It took Mongols till 1234 to conquer North China Plain, and till 1276 to conquer Yangtze Valley.
Tang Taizong ruled North China Plain by 624 - and Eastern Steppe by 630.
So what would be needed for the Tang to gain the loyalty of the Eastern Steppe nomads to the extent that they could send them past Caspian Sea and expect obedience, the way Mongols could?

The “Eastern Steppe nomads” of that time we’re not the same as Mongolian armies of Genghis so there would be a need not just of a loyalty (not sure how it would be obtained, IIRC, the Chinese tended to consider the nomads as a low life form) but a Chinese General who is a genius in the terms of a cavalry organization and few more generals who are military geniuses in cavalry strategy and tactics. Of course, loyalty of these people to the regime must be assured and so is loyalty of the nomads to these foreign commanders.

This is just for the starters.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The “Eastern Steppe nomads” of that time we’re not the same as Mongolian armies of Genghis so there would be a need not just of a loyalty (not sure how it would be obtained, IIRC, the Chinese tended to consider the nomads as a low life form) but a Chinese General who is a genius in the terms of a cavalry organization and few more generals who are military geniuses in cavalry strategy and tactics. Of course, loyalty of these people to the regime must be assured and so is loyalty of the nomads to these foreign commanders.

Chinese tended to consider nomads a low life form, but Tang Taizu would not have considered his mother one (she was Xianbi as stated before). The general in command of the western expedition who is a genius in terms of cavalry organization might not be Chinese or foreigner for the nomads, and yet be e. g. an uncle or a grandfather of the Emperor of China.