Surviving Palaiologos

[gurgu]

Constantine XI the last ERE emperor died without children while he's only relative in monferrat and morea followed him soon.
pod: WI Constantine had a male child and the dynasty survived through the story until the Greek Independence war, would he be re crowned king/basileous of a reborn Byzantine empire focusing on regain Constantinople?( join entente in ww1 and ask the city as old claim)

 

[Arkenfolm]

Greece was so subject to Great Power manipulation that I find it hard to believe they'd crown a random Italian noble as ruler. The Cantacuzino family of Romania seems like they have a much more legitimate claim (and are more likely to have the power to push for it).

 

[gurgu]

Greece was so subject to Great Power manipulation that I find it hard to believe they'd crown a random Italian noble as ruler. The Cantacuzino family of Romania seems like they have a much more legitimate claim (and are more likely to have the power to push for it).

well, as last official reigning dynasty i think a palaiologos has more claim

 

[Avrorrange]

Greece was so subject to Great Power manipulation that I find it hard to believe they'd crown a random Italian noble as ruler. The Cantacuzino family of Romania seems like they have a much more legitimate claim (and are more likely to have the power to push for it).

Depends on what kind of Italian noble this is. Might actually be a good compromise candidate. It's not like the OTL Kings of Greece ranked really high in the grand scheme of things. They were distant relatives of major royal families only,with the royal families of major states being reluctant to send their own princes to become the monarch of Greece.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Constantine XI the last ERE emperor died without children while he's only relative in monferrat and morea followed him soon.
pod: WI Constantine had a male child and the dynasty survived through the story until the Greek Independence war, would he be re crowned king/basileous of a reborn Byzantine empire focusing on regain Constantinople?( join entente in ww1 and ask the city as old claim)

No.

 

[Arkenfolm]

well, as last official reigning dynasty i think a palaiologos has more claim

The Montferrat branch would need to find a way to avoid being dethroned in the Italian Wars in which their lands were an immediate target.

Depends on what kind of Italian noble this is. Might actually be a good compromise candidate. It's not like the OTL Kings of Greece ranked really high in the grand scheme of things. They were distant relatives of major royal families only,with the royal families of major states being reluctant to send their own princes to become the monarch of Greece.

Russian influence in the Danubian principalities could help good Orthodox scions (not converts like any German or whatever prince might be) rule Greece. Like the Cantacuzino family of Romania.

 

[Marc]

Trivia:
Ferdinand Paleologos, the great-great grandson of the brother of the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI, made his way from England to Barbados, where he spent the last twenty years of his life on a plantation.
I've see this inscription in the cemetery of Saint John's church on Barbados:

“Here lyeth ye body of
Ferdinando Paleologus
Descended from ye imperial lyne
Of ye last Christian
Emperors of Greece
Churchwarden of this Parish
1655-1656
Vestryman, Twentye years
Died Oct. 3 1678”

My understanding he was the last direct male heir.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

The Montferrat branch would need to find a way to avoid being dethroned in the Italian Wars in which their lands were an immediate target.

Branch of Palailogos dynasty could end in France as Princes Étrangers-through Anne d'Alençon they'll inherit Anne's estates in France. IOTL these were inherited by Louis Gonzaga, son of Margaret Palailogos (Anne's daughter) and Frederick Gonzaga. If Margaret's brother Boniface lived longer and had sons, likely one of these sons would be send to France like Louis Gonzaga was IOTL to inherit grandma's lands.

 

[Eparkhos]

I doubt that it's actually a thing, but I read in a book about Christopher Columbus that he may have been the illegitimate son of Ioannes VIII.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

A little bit off-topic but would it be possible for the Palaiologos (either the Italian or the Roman branch) to unify Italy, or at least what at the time was considered the kingdom of Italy?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

A little bit off-topic but would it be possible for the Palaiologos (either the Italian or the Roman branch) to unify Italy, or at least what at the time was considered the kingdom of Italy?

I see chance for House of Palailogos to get royal crown-in Poland. Queen Bona Sforza looked for Italian husband for her oldest daughter Isabella, so the two could inherit her duchies of Bari and Rossano. Surviving Boniface IV of Montferrat could be that husband. And if he has son(s) one of them could succeede his wife's childless brother.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

I see chance for House of Palailogos to get royal crown-in Poland. Queen Bona Sforza looked for Italian husband for her oldest daughter Isabella, so the two could inherit her duchies of Bari and Rossano. Surviving Boniface IV of Montferrat could be that husband. And if he has son(s) one of them could succeede his wife's childless uncle.

I don’t know much about the period but wasn’t said uncle effectively landless? How would Boniface (or his son) take possession of this inheritance, especially when bigger players around them had the same goal?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I don’t know much about the period but wasn’t said uncle effectively landless? How would Boniface (or his son) take possession of this inheritance, especially when bigger players around them had the same goal?

Mistake. I mean brother (Sigismund Augustus), not uncle.

 

[Silver01]

it could be possible ,but very hard to predict how would they survive and even if they would accept them

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

Mistake. I mean brother (Sigismund Augustus), not uncle.

Well Poland would ensure that they don’t fade away into obscurity. It would also grant them the powerbase and prestige needed for more ambitious projects (like acquiring some other thrones), even though some luck would still be required. Would be interesting to see the last imperial dynasty have more success in Europe after the fall of the empire.

 

[Flavius Phocas]

This honestly doesn't change that much as far as I see it.
Firstly, while Constantine XI died without any children, his brothers Thomas and Demetrios Palaiologos continued to rule the Morea until 1460. Thomas and Demetrios both had children (although Demetrios only had a daughter), and while Demetrios stayed in the Ottoman Empire, Thomas moved to Italy and lived on a pension from the Pope until he died in 1461.

Thomas' descendant, as mentioned above would continue to intermingle in Western Europe until the 17th Century when the direct line runs out.

Alright so let's assume that the direct line doesn't die out, and that direct Palaiologi continue to exist in Western Europe.

By the time the Greek War of Independence happens (I assume this POD doesn't really cause that many butterflies, it's pretty minor), the remaining Palaiologi will have already been assimilated into the countries they have moved to, and the Great Powers will want to pick a monarch they can have influence over in Greece, not some family of nobodies.

The prospect of any Palaiologi surviving in the Ottoman Empire itself I find pretty unlikely though. Only look at what happened to the Komnenoi IOTL. David Komnenos was arrested and executed on trumped up charges, his sons shared the same fate and his daughter was put in the Imperial Harem.

Having a legitimate symbol of Roman resistance wandering around, owning estates in the Ottoman Empire was highly inconvenient and risky. Especially a hypothetical direct descendant of the Marble Emperor himself.

 

[Eparkhos]

Trivia:
Ferdinand Paleologos, the great-great grandson of the brother of the last Byzantine emperor, Constantine XI, made his way from England to Barbados, where he spent the last twenty years of his life on a plantation.
I've see this inscription in the cemetery of Saint John's church on Barbados:

“Here lyeth ye body of
Ferdinando Paleologus
Descended from ye imperial lyne
Of ye last Christian
Emperors of Greece
Churchwarden of this Parish
1655-1656
Vestryman, Twentye years
Died Oct. 3 1678”

My understanding he was the last direct male heir.

Just FYI, Ferdinando had a son, Theodore, who died at sea in 1693. He had three sons, but their fate is unknown.

 

[von Adler]

This honestly doesn't change that much as far as I see it.
Firstly, while Constantine XI died without any children, his brothers Thomas and Demetrios Palaiologos continued to rule the Morea until 1460. Thomas and Demetrios both had children (although Demetrios only had a daughter), and while Demetrios stayed in the Ottoman Empire, Thomas moved to Italy and lived on a pension from the Pope until he died in 1461.

Thomas' descendant, as mentioned above would continue to intermingle in Western Europe until the 17th Century when the direct line runs out.

Alright so let's assume that the direct line doesn't die out, and that direct Palaiologi continue to exist in Western Europe.

By the time the Greek War of Independence happens (I assume this POD doesn't really cause that many butterflies, it's pretty minor), the remaining Palaiologi will have already been assimilated into the countries they have moved to, and the Great Powers will want to pick a monarch they can have influence over in Greece, not some family of nobodies.

The prospect of any Palaiologi surviving in the Ottoman Empire itself I find pretty unlikely though. Only look at what happened to the Komnenoi IOTL. David Komnenos was arrested and executed on trumped up charges, his sons shared the same fate and his daughter was put in the Imperial Harem.

Having a legitimate symbol of Roman resistance wandering around, owning estates in the Ottoman Empire was highly inconvenient and risky. Especially a hypothetical direct descendant of the Marble Emperor himself.

They did seem to tolerate the Cantacuzino family and their (admittely iffy) claims to be descended from Ioannes VI Kantakouzenos though.

 

[Circonflexe]

There are some surviving Paleologues though, at least a Romanian branch (including a former minister for Culture) and a French one (including a former ambassador to Russia). I think I actually met some of the descendants of the French branch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Paleologu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Paléologue