Spanish Taiwan?

[Thande]

Funny thought I had. OTL, the Spanish briefly had an outpost on Taiwan in the 1640s, but were driven out by the Dutch, who were then overthrown by Han Chinese immigrants loyal to the Ming dynasty, who were then in turn conquered by the Qing Empire (confused yet?).

However, considering how close Taiwan is to the Philippines, is it plausible that someone (Magellan?) could have found it at the the same time and Taiwan could have been colonised at the same time as the Philippines, the 1640s?

And would the same sort of pattern of Chinese immigration and then overthrow have occurred as OTL, perhaps bringing two of the world's greatest empires into direct confrontation?

 

[Max Sinister]

I think according to Tordesillas Taiwan is in the Portuguese sphere.

 

[Jason]

other than being an outpost, is there anything on Tiawan that would make it worth the Spanish putting the effort in?

 

[Philip]

I think according to Tordesillas Taiwan is in the Portuguese sphere.

Correct, but I think the same can be said of the Philippines.

 

[Thande]

other than being an outpost, is there anything on Tiawan that would make it worth the Spanish putting the effort in?

Well, the Dutch thought so, and their empire was motivated entirely by commercial interests, soo...

 

[Faeelin]

Well, the Dutch thought so, and their empire was motivated entirely by commercial interests, soo...

Yes, but they wanted ports for trade with China.

The sugar and deer hides were a nice bonus, of course.

Hmm, perhaps the Dutch simply decide to set up shop somewhere else?

 

[Jason]

Well, the Dutch thought so, and their empire was motivated entirely by commercial interests, soo...

good point.

I wonder if the Spanish might push their luck and try and expand into mainland China?

 

[Thande]

good point.

I wonder if the Spanish might push their luck and try and expand into mainland China?

The Ming are still in power, I think the Chinese would be able to slap down any direct attack by would-be conquistadores.

Which is why I think this is particularly interesting - instead of the OTL relations between arrogant, introverted Chinese governments and greedy trade-obsessed Europeans culminating in the Opium Wars, we'd have an early direct confrontation between two of the greatest empires in the world: the Spanish, with what at this stage is the best army and the largest navy in Europe, and the Ming Chinese, at a time when I believe the Zheng He-era fleet still existed, albeit in a decayed state.

 

[Jason]

Which is why I think this is particularly interesting - instead of the OTL relations between arrogant, introverted Chinese governments and greedy trade-obsessed Europeans culminating in the Opium Wars, we'd have an early direct confrontation between two of the greatest empires in the world: the Spanish, with what at this stage is the best army and the largest navy in Europe, and the Ming Chinese, at a time when I believe the Zheng He-era fleet still existed, albeit in a decayed state.

Good point, a China that could actually stand up for itself.

 

[Max Sinister]

The clash of the titans!

 

[Jason]

The world views of the two could be interesting, the Chinese is well known but I wonder how the Spanish would view the Chinese-would they seem them as an equal or in the same light as native north americans?

 

[Max Sinister]

They'd consider them to be on a higher level than the Amerindians, but they'll also think the Chinese have the wrong faith.

 

[Faeelin]

The world views of the two could be interesting, the Chinese is well known but I wonder how the Spanish would view the Chinese-would they seem them as an equal or in the same light as native north americans?

Well, the Jesuit scholars in China thought the Chinese were civilized, yet weird.

 

[Faeelin]

good point.

I wonder if the Spanish might push their luck and try and expand into mainland China?

Well, OTL Zheng Chenggong, by that point a rebel reduced to using bandits, drove the Dutch out of Taiwan.

On the bright side, the ensuing Ming Phillipines oughta be interesting.

 

[Homer]

On the bright side, the ensuing Ming Phillipines oughta be interesting.

Yeah, definitely. Once the Chinese hold provinces in oversea they are forced to establish a navy and trade is a natural result of such an empire. An empire with overseas-territories automatically opens.

 

[fortyseven]

The clash of the titans!

It would make a great read.

 

[Hendryk]

Hmm, perhaps the Dutch simply decide to set up shop somewhere else?

How about Macau? I was there today and the museum of local history had a display about the failed Dutch invasion of Macau in 1622. Apparently the Dutch defeat was due to a lucky shot by a Portuguese cannon, which scored a direct hit on the Dutch stores of gunpowder. Have that shot miss and you may have a Dutch Macau.

Which is why I think this is particularly interesting - instead of the OTL relations between arrogant, introverted Chinese governments and greedy trade-obsessed Europeans culminating in the Opium Wars, we'd have an early direct confrontation between two of the greatest empires in the world: the Spanish, with what at this stage is the best army and the largest navy in Europe, and the Ming Chinese, at a time when I believe the Zheng He-era fleet still existed, albeit in a decayed state.

Excellent point

Yeah, definitely. Once the Chinese hold provinces in oversea they are forced to establish a navy and trade is a natural result of such an empire. An empire with overseas-territories automatically opens.

Seconded. Now who's going to write this TL? (Don't look at me, I have projects piling up for ''Superpower Empire'' and can't even get around to proceeding with them).

 

[Thande]

I don't think a Chinese victory is necessarily a foregone conclusion. They certainly have the advantage of a much shorter supply line than the Spaniards, but the latter are more used to operating independently as well. I think technically the two sides are about equal in the 1580s: the Chinese would certainly win on numbers but it depends on whether they still have a strong enough maritime tradition to support an invasion of Taiwan and then perhaps the Philippines.

I know they drove the Dutch off Taiwan in OTL, but wasn't that more a pirate/warlord fleet rather than a sanctioned government naval force?

It's still interesting if the Chinese do win - firstly it knocks the Spaniards back from their string of global conquests and perhaps makes them reassess their military priorities; secondly it either 1) encourages a revival of Chinese maritime tradition to support island colonies and probably leads to expansion into the East Indies, or 2) the Ming basically vassalise and half-forget about the Philippines, but the result is a Sinicised culture; thirdly there's the question of what the Chinese do with the Moros on Mindanao which the Spanish never quite conquered in OTL; fourthly it means Spanish enemies, such as Portugal (where applicable), the Netherlands and England, are even more likely to want to trade with China.

 

[Faeelin]

. They certainly have the advantage of a much shorter supply line than the Spaniards, but the latter are more used to operating independently as well. I think technically the two sides are about equal in the 1580s: the Chinese would certainly win on numbers but it depends on whether they still have a strong enough maritime tradition to support an invasion of Taiwan and then perhaps the Philippines.

I know they drove the Dutch off Taiwan in OTL, but wasn't that more a pirate/warlord fleet rather than a sanctioned government naval force?

I'd argue that a group of pirates and warlords, nominally loyal to the Ming government, are the ones who will take a crack at the Phillipines anyway; and the generals could be flexible enough; they loved European firearms, after all.

(Zheng Chenggong's Phillipine empire? Why not?)

::Shameless Plug here::

Spain's gona find out relatively soon in Perpetual Brightness why not to tangle with Chinese immigrants in the Phillippines.

 

[Faeelin]

http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~borao/2Profesores/massacre.pdf

This seems summat appropriate.