Spanish Taiwan?

Thande

Thande

Donor
Faeelin said:
Zheng Chenggong's Phillipine empire? Why not?
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That strikes me as more interesting than one ruled directly from Peking. Even more so if, unlike OTL, it avoids being annexed by the Qing - perhaps this hypothetical state could be an intermediary for European trade with China proper.
 

Wendell

Consider that the southern Philippines at this point in history were ruled by Muslims. Will they still be under Muslim rule if the Chinese manage to take the Philippines ITTL?
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Wendell said:
Consider that the southern Philippines at this point in history were ruled by Muslims. Will they still be under Muslim rule if the Chinese manage to take the Philippines ITTL?
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If I remember correctly the Ming had a mixed record when it came to ruling over Muslims. Sometimes they could rise to high positions (Zheng He was really Zheng Ma, Ma being the Mandarin for Muhammad) but I think areas seen as Muslim 'states' (as Mindanao would be) were held down quite strongly. Of course that might have been because quite a lot of them had tried to invade Han China.
 

Wendell

Thande said:
If I remember correctly the Ming had a mixed record when it came to ruling over Muslims. Sometimes they could rise to high positions (Zheng He was really Zheng Ma, Ma being the Mandarin for Muhammad) but I think areas seen as Muslim 'states' (as Mindanao would be) were held down quite strongly. Of course that might have been because quite a lot of them had tried to invade Han China.
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Attempting to hold down Mindanao could make for unexpected allies should Spain or another power later contest the Chinese for control of the islands.
 

Faeelin

Wendell said:
Attempting to hold down Mindanao could make for unexpected allies should Spain or another power later contest the Chinese for control of the islands.
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Oh, perhaps.

I don't know how the settlement of the Phillppines goes; there's a lot of wackiness in this TL that's not immediately obvious.

Frex, does this mean no Jesuits at the Ming Court?
 

Wendell

Faeelin said:
Oh, perhaps.

I don't know how the settlement of the Phillppines goes; there's a lot of wackiness in this TL that's not immediately obvious.

Frex, does this mean no Jesuits at the Ming Court?
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Honestly, I'm not even sure that the POD would even take us in this direction.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Faeelin said:
Frex, does this mean no Jesuits at the Ming Court?
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Not all Jesuits are Spanish...

But I wonder if the Spanish=Enemy thing might make the Ming court reject trade missions from other Catholic countries, like Portugal, and favour the Netherlands and England? Mind you, not sure if that degree of subtlety would inform the Chinese opinion.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Faeelin said:
Japan was capable of tellin g the different, so I'm not sure why China couldn't.
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Yes, but that was a case of the Portuguese (while peacefully trading) telling them for years that Catholicism was the only sort of Christianity and then the Dutch and English showed up and undermined their story. It's not surprising that the Japanese could spot that subtlety under those circumstances. But when the Chinese are introduced to Catholicism by having a bloody war with Spain, would they have either the knowledge or inclination necessary to distinguish between Spanish and Portuguese, Catholic and Protestant?
 

Faeelin

Thande said:
Yes, but that was a case of the Portuguese (while peacefully trading) telling them for years that Catholicism was the only sort of Christianity and then the Dutch and English showed up and undermined their story. It's not surprising that the Japanese could spot that subtlety under those circumstances. But when the Chinese are introduced to Catholicism by having a bloody war with Spain, would they have either the knowledge or inclination necessary to distinguish between Spanish and Portuguese, Catholic and Protestant?
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There were Catholics around before this, actually; and the Dutch show up in the pescadores in the 1620s. I expect they'd clear up the matter.

It's not like the Chinese (and Japanese) weren't familiar with the idea of competing sects.
 

Faeelin

Wendell said:
The Chinese might not contest the Spanish for control of the island if it is effectively controlled-and not just claimed-by Spain.
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If they don't care, sure. But this all seems to be based on an attack on China by some Spanish official.

Which I could, although improbable, see.
 

antisocrates

Thande said:
The Ming are still in power, I think the Chinese would be able to slap down any direct attack by would-be conquistadores.

Which is why I think this is particularly interesting - instead of the OTL relations between arrogant, introverted Chinese governments and greedy trade-obsessed Europeans culminating in the Opium Wars, we'd have an early direct confrontation between two of the greatest empires in the world: the Spanish, with what at this stage is the best army and the largest navy in Europe, and the Ming Chinese, at a time when I believe the Zheng He-era fleet still existed, albeit in a decayed state.
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Hardly.Spain was in decline, and in a few years, the Ming dynasty would fall to a peasant rebel. 1640 is hardly an auspicious time for the meeting of "superpowers" - more like a meeting of a has been and a cripple.The Qing dynasty against the Dutch Republic in the 1680's, or the Ming dynasty against the Spanish in the 1550's, now those would be the clash of titans.
 

Faeelin

antisocrates said:
Hardly.Spain was in decline, and in a few years, the Ming dynasty would fall to a peasant rebel. 1640 is hardly an auspicious time for the meeting of "superpowers" - more like a meeting of a has been and a cripple.The Qing dynasty against the Dutch Republic in the 1680's, or the Ming dynasty against the Spanish in the 1550's, now those would be the clash of titans.
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I dunno.

We know how "group of rebels fleeing the mainland" did against the Dutch, after all.
 
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