Soviets invade the allies during operation downfall.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Pauh the federalist, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. Pauh the federalist Well-Known Member

    Feb 12, 2018
    If the Yalta conference is a failure and disagreement over the future of Europe bog down the conference with part of the fallout leading to the Soviets not declaring war on Japan (amongst other things) what would the outcome be if the Soviets declare war on the allies while they are engaged in operation downfall, invading Japan because of nukes being delayed a number of years?
  2. Catsmate Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2008
    There was a novel with this premise, or something like it. I believe Fuchs somehow sabotaged the Trinity test.

    ETA: It was The Bomb That Failed by Ronald William Clark published in 1969.
    Uchronia blurb is:
    Goodreads has:
    Reviews are terrible.

    Frankly I think the idea is ludicrous. The Soviets had neither the capacity nor the political will to invade Western Europe in 1945.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  3. Garrison Well-Known Member

    Feb 24, 2012
    Milton Keynes UK
    Should also be noted that there were two distinctly different types of nuclear weapons developed by the Manhattan Project. The gun type Uranium weapon was 'Little Boy' and required no test detonation as it was relatively simple weapon. It was the Plutonium implosion weapon 'Fat Man' that required testing. So even if the Alamogordo test failed its unlikely in the extreme Little Boy would have failed as well and the US would have continued their work.
    trajen777, Rath and goalieboy82 like this.
  4. Catsmate Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2008
    Plus there wasn't one to test.

    Probably there's have been more experimentation, possibly the development of a HEU or composite-pit implosion weapon.
    goalieboy82 and Garrison like this.
  5. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    1123 6536 5321
    All books that use this sort of late 40s WW3 or even pretty much continuing on from the end of WW2 that I have ever read have all been awful - truly bloody awful

    The last one I read was meme gasmic and from memory

    Shermans verse T34s - Sherman's utterly routed bursting into flames and incinerating their crews while their 75mm shells bounce harmlessly from the sloped armour of the far more mobile and betterer Russian tanks

    The British Army under the plodding boring Montgomery (who has a nervous breakdown) now facing a decent opponent got surrounded 'losing all their artillery' and were out of the fight (which was the only real mention of the British army in the entire book)

    France returned to type and the evil self serving De Gaulle stopped Wallied logistics from using French ports and railway networks after being threatened by Stalin

    In order to stop the advancing Russians the US Army re activates the Heer as only they and their awesome tanks can stop the Russians....

    US T26 tanks start arriving - Patton leads a counter attack - because the only effective US general was of course Patton - RA RA RA

    Lots of other bullshit meme nonsense - which by that point I was skim reading and wondered if the Russians were eventually defeated with an atom bomb so I jumped to the last chapter

    "The Russians are eventually defeated by a nuclear bomb dropped on Zhukov's HQ"

    That book met a terrible accident after which I set its remains on fire
  6. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

    Dec 14, 2012
    The math & the lab tests on the Fat Man implosion device were fairly solid. The tests were more aimed at the precision use of the conventional explosives and electrical detonation system for creating the implosion. Its difficult to see how Fuchs could have sabotaged the TRINITY test without raising suspicion and a shot at a second test. Since several Fat Man type devices were already near completion its not difficult to see another test in a few weeks, after Parsons & his technicians do another series of non nuclear tests on their implosion system.
  7. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

    Dec 14, 2012
    What type was that???? The France that loaned the American rebels large sums in the 1780s, that sent a army and fleet to assist the rebellion. The France that remained on good terms with the US for most of the 19th Century. The France that raised funds for the Statue of Liberty. The France that shipped 48 railway cars of donated art to each US state as a thank you gift after the Great War. I could go on, but yeah, the book sounds stupid.

    I send my rejects to the paper mill for recycle. Turn them into egg cartons.
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  8. wcv215 Well-Known Member

    Aug 29, 2010
    Right, that one. Not sure what’s confusing about that. :p
    Leopardon likes this.
  9. Garrison Well-Known Member

    Feb 24, 2012
    Milton Keynes UK
    Yeah the idea they would sort of give up is unlikely I can't even see there being any major delay, they could just focus on uranium gun bombs while they do more R&D.
  10. hzn5pk Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2008
    Soviets will be screwed. Allies can pick and choose where to land.

    Soviets will be successful at first.

    Allies hold in southern France and northern Italy. As they perform a fighting retreat, evacuations and re-land in southern France near Spain. The goal is to hold Spain (Franco sees writing on wall and joins allies), Italy and Iran oilfields while Japan is finished off.

    Priority 1 is Japan
    2 is Iran
    3. Defend turkey
    4 defend Spain and Italy

    Soviets are stopped cold in the Pyrenees, Italy and in Iran. The middle east is where allied troops are rushed to to prevent soviet access to persian gulf.

    After these objectives are met what next?

    After Japan, obviously Soviet far east is open. But it is minimal value and sooner or later logistics come into play. But usa would secure Vladivostok, Manchuria and drive to lake Baikal region.

    From southern Iran, allies secure northern Iran, Iraq, and may drive to Baku. But mountains and logistics will come into play again. But not a drop of Caucus or Romanian oil get to Soviet refineries.

    Perhaps the allies build up in Italy and drive north to Baltic. Or land along black sea coast of Ukraine (Turkey entered war in 1945 on allied side.)

    Meanwhile, Soviet resistance groups everywhere play havoc behind the lines. Stalin has a lot of enemies in eastern Europe, free France, German underground, Baltic region ...

    Allied air superiority targets Soviet production and logistics. As soon as Soviet cities are within reach of B29's, they are wiped out.

    Soviets were counting on quick victory and peace over war weary England and USA distracted by Japan. They did not figure on allied resolve being so strong.

    Soviets are given no time to consolidate and build defences.

    Allies can pick and choose where to land and exploit.

    Ultimately, in 1951 Moscow is captured. There is no Soviet union.

    Soviet union and Russia are broken up.

    USA administers Sakhalin, Kuriles, Kamchatka, perhaps even all of Soviet far east.

    Finland gets their claims back.

    East Prussia??? Could it be given to Britain? Or back to Germany?

    Globally - what is effect
    China - nationalists win
    British and French empires for decolonisation in Africa and Asia.
    India and Pakistan become independent
    British and French leave middle east
    French and Vietnamese still clash. Vietnamese win. USA does not back France.
    USA ensures Philippines are independent as well as Korea.

    USA rebuilds Europe including the resulting Soviet/Russian states

    No space race - moon landings occur in 1980's

    But perhaps with no cold war, bush wars of Africa and Asia are less as colonialism ends.
    Zagan likes this.
  11. Cryhavoc101 Well-Known Member

    Jun 27, 2014
    1123 6536 5321
    The Author obviously had a < Kanye West knowledge of History

    I needed instant gratification and remains to date the only book I have destroyed in such a fashion - the other books that I have 'got rid of' regardless of my opinion have been 'recycled' by being gifted to a local charity shop
    Winestu likes this.
  12. Dave Howery laughs at your pain

    Jun 21, 2004
    Cheyenne WY
    I read a few of them on Kindle, so I couldn't even burn the books. They were indeed a rather gawdawful collection. I remember one in which Patton is the savior of Europe and personally kills Stalin in a gunfight with pistols (??!!). One story was in a whole series of books, up to 5 now I think. The rest were utter dreck.
    alexmilman likes this.
  13. StealthyMarat In the heavy thoughts. Gone Fishin'

    Dec 29, 2017
    Poltava, Ukraine
  14. Bougnas Well-Known Member

    Apr 28, 2018
    You know, there are 2 types of prototype porn TLs in this world: Nazi Germany survives beyond 45...and 1945 Unthinkable.

    This is what makes an Unthinkable with 75 Shermans getting slaughtered even more ridiculous
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  15. ObssesedNuker Commander of 10 million men

    Jul 8, 2007
    In the Kremlin, Activating Perimetr
    If the Soviets are gonna invade Western Europe in the mid/late-40s, the optimum time to do it is 1947-48... not 1945.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  16. Catsmate Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2008
    I didn't know Kratman had a new book out...
  17. Catsmate Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2008
    Probably the only vaguely plausible method, based on research for an RPG scenario, is gimmick the X unit so the Gadget blows during Hornig's watch.
  18. David T Well-Known Member

    Nov 8, 2007
    Even without the a-bomb, it is obvious that Japan is losing, and it is in Stalin's interest to join in the war against Japan to get as much control over Manchuria and Korea (and possibly part of Japan itself) as he can. As for Europe, if no agreement is reached on spheres of influence at Yalta (which is very doubtful, given that Teheran and the subsequent "facts on the ground" had already laid the foundations for such a division), I still don't see why Stalin would be crazy enough to declare war on the western allies instead of simply advancing as far as he can into central Europe until his troops meet the western troops somewhere in Germany and in effect declare that the boundary, and defy the West to go to war with him to drive him back (which it won't).
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  19. Carnivorous Vegetarian Unknown Member

    Oct 15, 2015
    Along with his trusty sidekick, Winston Churchill - in his morning suit, wearing a homburg, and smoking a cigar, whilst toting a Tommy Gun in each hand.
    OurSacredWar and MildSeven like this.
  20. kclcmdr Well-Known Member

    Jul 17, 2010
    Soviets at the time are using Lend-Lease Fuel for their Tanks, Trucks, Halftracks & Aircraft on the Eastern Front.

    Once the Soviets do attack the Western Forces, that pipeline dries up and all they will have left are the fuel in transit within the Soviet Union from LL and any Fuel from their mostly half restored Oil Fields & rebuilt refineries at Baku...

    Also nearly half of their Foodstuff supplies are arriving via LL.. once that dries up, their own stock of foodstuff will be tenuous as they haven't fully rebuilt & recover those agricultural fields that they had liberated & re-conquered from German Occupation Forces in 44-45 …

    There was some unconfirm info that the Soviets went into a famine once LL stopped in 1945-46 as their foodstuff production never fully recovered towards their 1941 levels...