Soviets invade the allies during operation downfall.

The Milepost agreement figures also need to be put into context: the tonnage shipped for Manchuria is a fraction of that dispatched under the earlier L-L agreements and was dwarfed by what the USSR sent eastward down the TS-RR (it also will still occur under IATL, although it's interesting to speculate how the WAllies react when August rolls past and the Soviets haven't attacked Japan). I did the math sometime last year and from memory the Milepost shipments amounted to something like 1/8th to 1/12th of the supplies stockpiled in the Manchurian Operation. The fact that the USSR could ship so much over such a long distance over relatively think infrastructure is a powerful testament to the logistical capabilities they had built up and puts lie to the idea they'd struggle with the basic task of supplying their armies in Europe, which is both closer and richer in infrastructure then Manchuria.

Inasmuch as they helped the Red Army meet Stalin's 3 month deadline after VE Day, the Milepost deliveries were very significant. By 1945, the yearly wartime capacity of the Trans-Siberian Railway amounted to 13 million tons, of which only 9.3 million tons could be allocated to military transport bearing in mind Far Eastern Russia's lack of economic self sufficiency from Europe. The 1.25 million tons of cargo deliveries over 3.5 months were therefore equivalent to a roughly 50 percent boost in rate of stockpiling. This was one of the reasons why (among other things) the Japanese were caught off guard when the war began on 8/9 August and not later - they failed to account for Allied aid in their appraisal of Soviet capabilities.

While Milepost didn't singlehandedly grant the USSR the power to attack Japan - though, according to General Deane, based on Stalin's figures the Red Army would be operating at a monthly deficit of 200,000 tons without it ["The Strange Alliance" pp. 263-264] - it did ensure that the USSR would be in a position to do so within the window promised and reaffirmed at Tehran, Yalta, and Potsdam.
 
If the Soviets reach the Pyrenees, the Spanish can't really stop them crossing over. Sure Franco would prefer to remain neutral, and if the Soviets don't cross the Rhine or overrun France he probably will, tilting towards the west like he tilted towards Germany. If the Soviets reach the Pyrenees, they may or may not pause but the reality is without support from the US and others not under Soviet control Spanish independence is transient.
 
My experience is that google translate can handle translation of individual words just fine, it just craps out when it comes to assembling those words into coherent sentences with actual grammar, tenses, punctuation, and all that stuff. Fortunately, tables of items don't require any complete sentences, numbers are pretty universal, and usually formats something like:

[Year] [Year] [Year]
[Item] [Number] [Number] [Number]

I can reasonably be sure that, for example the table which goes:

1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
[Cattle (million heads)] [54.5] [31.4] [28.4] [33.9] [44.2] [47.4]

Is showing that the number of cattle in Soviet agriculture increased by 10.3 million heads from 1943-1944 and 3.2 million heads from 1944-45.

I fail to see what you're attempting to prove with this bit.

1. Total.
2. It seems to be recorded for End of Year.

The Soviet stockpile figures for avgas for end of 1944 and 1945 are 1.334 million and 947 thousand tons respectively, a fall of 387,000 tons. Production for 1945 is 1.017 million tons. One could possibly try to calculate consumption figures from that and modify that based on 1944 production if one wants to assume the Soviets keep production up (the table indicates that Soviet production in '45 was scaled back for some reason). There would be four remaining holes in such a calculation however: first, what was the supply of L-L avgas during the course of 1945? Secondly, how much production was derived from captured German plants? Thirdly, what proportion of avgas was high-quality vs low-quality? And fourthly, how fast could the Soviets repair/relocate German refining capacity if they accorded those programs with relevant priority, assuming that is possible?

Declined production in 1945 can easily be explained: the loss of America Tetrathyl lead.
The Germans disposed of more then twice as much armor against the Soviets as they had against the WAllies in both France and Italy.
Not by Mid-Summer of 1944.

They had begun to hit POL with strategic bombing as part of a coherent plan developed over the course of years of war. That's quite a bit of a different situation then several weeks or months of the chaos and surprise that would accompany a sudden Soviet assault. The possibility that in the first weeks of a massed Soviet assault, with Anglo-American staffs scrambling just to ensure their armies are able to retreat in a coherent manner, that they will suddenly take the time and effort to consider such long-term strategic considerations as resource denial isn't completely inconceivable, but it is far from guaranteed. Obviously it become more and more possible the longer the Soviets take to advance, but it still doesn't guarantee it. While I grant you the Soviets at Maikop, that had a year of planning and preparation behind it. The Dutch example however doesn't stand up at all because your claim that they did it quite nicely is untrue: their demolition of the oil facilities was carried out rather poorly and production in the DEI rebounded quite quickly as a result.

There's in the vicinity of at least 2.5 Million Allies soldiers in the way versus about an equal number of Soviets who, at best advance, will still take probably close to two weeks if not longer to reach the facilities. Given the Allies managed to conduct such operations repeatedly over the course of WWII despite much worse conditions is salient in this point.

I also completely fail to understand the logic of explaining how the Anti-POL strategy came about in this context; it's not like the Anglo-Americans unlearn such lessons because their enemy speaks Russian instead of German now.

No. It quite clearly stays “1942, 1943, and early-1944” which clearly places the increase of Soviet food production in 1944, with the harvest of that year obviously only having an effect in late-1944 for what I hope is exceedingly obvious reasons, as being what relieved starvation.

I've already provided the screenshots sufficiently enough times to disprove this notion, yet you insist upon it. Here's all the chapters available on JSTOR, please direct me to where it states what you claim.

The Soviets were still at war in 1944 and a large portion of 1945, with the Red Army remaining heavily mobilized right past the planting season for 1945, yet the progress was not undone.

And American Lend Lease continued into the fall of 1945. The 1946-1947 famine began just months after the cessation of such.

So? What prevents the partisans during the course of 1942 and '43 from recruiting, training, and arming an additional 375,000 men and women, especially with the intensive support they started receiving from the Soviet government in terms of supplies and military advisors in this period?

Because such numbers don't fit with the land area the Germans controlled at that time nor does it match with the amount of partisans the Germans killed at this time. In 1942, the Germans controlled all of Belarus, Ukraine and the Kuban; over the course of 1943 they lost significant ground in these sectors.

Doesn't change the fact the Soviets still have those logistical assets at the start and it would take much longer for them to burn them off then a mere half-year. The Soviets were already domestically producing spare parts for American trucks by the end of '44, some of which they even went through the formality of doing so under license, and the quantities were enough to keep those models working for roughly the next decade so it's doubtful they'd get any worse like you'd claim... well, at least not for the first year of war.

Do they? Their performance in Manchuria says otherwise.

Looking at history, Soviet motor vehicle production in 1945 was 74.7 thousand vehicles. Soviet motor vehicle irrecoverable losses during the war according to the Soviet Automobile Directorate were 351,600 vehicles broken down as follows:

1941: 159.0 thousand
1942: 66.2 thousand
1943: 67.6 thousand
1944: 32.5 thousand
1945 (to September 2nd): 27.5 thousand.

Given that truck loss rates against the WAllies for the first one-two years of the war will probably resemble 1943 at worst and 1944 at best, it's pretty clear that Soviet domestic production by 1945 will be more then enough to keep up with losses as far as motor vehicles are concerned.

etjpsQsK_o.jpg


Source here.

As already pointed out, Downfall was scheduled for November, not October, and that's before the delay from the Typhoon which would likely push it back into December. American factories were switching back to consumer production as early as 1944, because frankly production in the '43-'44 was that excessive. The claim that all units would be maintained doesn't stand up to scrutiny: only the units that would be rotated to the Pacific, who would already be gone from Europe by the time this war begins, would expect to see further combat so I don't see why the JCS would bother trying to maintain cohesion and combat effectiveness among those units which aren't heading off to the Pacific given the lack of any apparent enemy for them to fight and the pushback they'd get from those men for trying would be damaging for morale. The number of combat vets was relatively small and they'd be the first to either go to the Pacific or get demobbed. And citing Stephen Ambrose's work on the 101st rather ignores that (A) the Airborne formations (and Ranger units) were the exceptionally above the average in terms of personnel quality even during the war and (B) Stephen Ambrose is known for severely embellishing his accounts...

The claim was never that all units were being maintained, but that the units to be shipped to the Pacific were; I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that combat vets were few in number for the ETO in May of 1945, however. As for redeployments to the Pacific, none were to occur in 1945.

The Axis forces on the Eastern Front had close to 3,000 aircraft (2,500 were German) in June of '44 of which 750 were fighters.

Total, yes. Actually functioning? Just 44 in AGC's sector as I said.

In armored divisions, they had 20 divisions (16 German).

How many in AGC's sector? As with the above, you're committing the error of willful omission.

Fixating on AGC's part of the front ignores the fact that even in those locations where the Germans artillery, armor, and air were concentrated, like AGNU, the Soviets rolled their defenses in a matter of days and advanced hundreds of miles in weeks, achieving major encirclement in the process that decimated German forces.

Really? Because as I recall Bagration lasted two months, while Lvov–Sandomierz Offensive lasted for one month as well.
 
I fail to see what you're attempting to prove with this bit.

Oh, just noting that I can rely on putting most of these tables through google translate. Not all of them, but when google translate fails to translate singular words it is very obvious in doing so. Just... never rely on it for sentences.

Declined production in 1945 can easily be explained: the loss of America Tetrathyl lead.
Maybe, maybe not. I won't say it's wrong, but unless more concrete evidence can be provided then it's no more likely then the possibility that, for example, the Soviets deliberately scaled back production in response to capturing new, non-domestic production centers much closer to their air forces operational bases (that is, the East German refineries obviously).
Not by Mid-Summer of 1944.

Uh. Yes, by mid-summer of 1944? I mean, that is the time period I was talking about and the numbers speak for themselves: 18 panzer divisions in the east vs 9 in the west. ~5,000 AFVs vs ~2,500.

There's in the vicinity of at least 2.5 Million Allies soldiers in the way versus about an equal number of Soviets who, at best advance,

Wait, why did WAllied soldier strength suddenly jump by half-a-million and Soviet strength decline by anywhere from one-half to one-third? We already established earlier in the thread that it'd probably be about 2 million WAllied soldiers vs 4.5 million Soviet soldiers at best and close to 7 million at worst...

will still take probably close to two weeks if not longer to reach the facilities. Given the Allies managed to conduct such operations repeatedly over the course of WWII despite much worse conditions is salient in this point.

Examples such as what? Genuinely curious here: The only instance of the WAllies having to blow up fuel production facilities under their own control I can recall was the Dutch East Indies in early 1942. Not only were the conditions there at best the same as they are IATL and at worst considerably better (months instead of weeks), but the attempt was a massive failure with the Japanese seizing the oil facilities mostly intact and quickly re-establishing production.

I also completely fail to understand the logic of explaining how the Anti-POL strategy came about in this context; it's not like the Anglo-Americans unlearn such lessons because their enemy speaks Russian instead of German now.

It's less about having to relearn any lessons and more about recognizing the need to implement such a strategy in the midst of the panic and shock of a Soviet surprise attack.

I've already provided the screenshots sufficiently enough times to disprove this notion, yet you insist upon it. Here's all the chapters available on JSTOR, please direct me to where it states what you claim.

There's no page number attached, but the screenshot you posted earlier states "During all of 1942, 1943, and the first-half of 1944, food consumption among the civilian home front population was pushed down right down to the lowest possible limit" so once again, we have a case where you are ignoring what the sources you have already posted actually are saying.

And American Lend Lease continued into the fall of 1945. The 1946-1947 famine began just months after the cessation of such.

Actually, the 1946 famine began almost a year after the cessation of lend-lease, with the famine not hitting it's peak until early-1947. This also ignores that the quantity of food shipped under the Milepost Agreement was almost 1/5th that shipped under the 4th Protocol, at 258,201 vs 1,157,373 tons respectively. Taking into account the time differences and food shipments on a per-day basis declined by almost 40% and a nearly 50% decline from that of the Third Protocol Agreement (the 1943-1944 shipments). The correlation of the 1946 famines with the end of lend-lease is hence weak and the causative link has not been established.

Because such numbers don't fit with the land area the Germans controlled at that time nor does it match with the amount of partisans the Germans killed at this time. In 1942, the Germans controlled all of Belarus, Ukraine and the Kuban; over the course of 1943 they lost significant ground in these sectors.

Again, I'm not sure how? Seeing as the 500,000 number for partisans is in mid-'43, when the Germans still controlled all the territory you listed. Even in 1944 while the Germans lost Kuban and much of Ukraine, they still retained major footholds in the latter and lost no ground in Belarus or the Baltics (speaking of which, you seem keen on ignoring the Baltics... how many partisans were operating there in 1944?). While many partisans in a freshly liberated region would (re)join the Red Army's main units, others would (under orders) simply follow the retreating Germans in order to provide intelligence to the Soviet military and assist their comrade partisans further west. Additionally, as the obvious imminence of German defeat rose, regions that had previously been reluctant to support the partisans decided to throw their weight behind them in the hopes of avoiding Stalin's retribution. So while I can see the total number of partisans operating in German rear areas may have declined during the course of 1943 and early-'44, I sincerely doubt it fell to a mere 150,000 nor that the 150,000 partisans in Belarus represent the sum total of all Soviet partisans in operation in June of 1944.

Do they? Their performance in Manchuria says otherwise.

I'm not sure how? The Soviets experienced difficulties in maintaining their formations operational towards the end of the operation but these were typical operational problems that stemmed from a rapid advance leaving behind supplies of spare parts and maintenance workshops and nonindicative of a strategic inability to maintain truck stocks and replace losses. Such issues were no different then those experienced during the massive of advances by the Soviets in 1943-45 or the WAllies in 1944-45 and in those cases too they were transient until the supply and maintenance units caught up and fixed those vehicles right up. Irrecoverable truck losses were no better or worse then prior operations in 1945. If anything, the Manchurian operation suggests that logistically the Soviets would see little problem in the first stage of the war, seeing as it was conducted over a region comparable to the size of Western Europe but far poorer in infrastructure and much further from the Soviet core, with the Soviets still only taking a month to overrun it all.


Yes, I got my information from the GAVTU as well. That's why the loss figures line up rather directly with mine. The figures in the table don't include Soviet production (only the quantity of vehicles received by the Red Army from Soviet production), but the already linked-too production archives section for industrial machinery output gives the aforementioned 76,000 production. Even there, however, the figures are for production in 1945 rather then the more relevant figures for 1946 when Soviet automotive industry was in a advanced enough state of recovery that they even began the mass production new, modern models of trucks.

The claim was never that all units were being maintained, but that the units to be shipped to the Pacific were; I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that combat vets were few in number for the ETO in May of 1945, however. As for redeployments to the Pacific, none were to occur in 1945.

Your post gave off the tone that the all units would be maintained. I said the number of combat vets in the ETO was relatively small... which it was. Even leaving aside that a vaster proportion of WAllied military manpower in Europe was devoted to deep rear service tasks then that of the Red Army or Wehrmacht (in part, because those tasks were being undertaken by German/Soviet civilian or paramilitary functions) and hence would have little opportunity to see combat, by the time they confronted major German formations they had such overwhelming advantage and advanced in such a methodical and broad manner that the "shallow" rear service personnel never had much opportunity to gain significant combat experience as was the case with the Soviets or Germans. WAllied veteran combat experience was hence heavily concentrated in the combat elements of their forces.

As to transfer to the Pacific, your link does not really support your claim: it discusses operations to be undertaken once they have redeployed to the Pacific by the start of 1946 but for that to be the case, those formations would have to begin redeploying in 1945. The logistics of shipping out hundreds of thousands, even millions, of men and their equipment without rendering them completely disorganized and combat incapable is a lengthy process and by the time the Soviets would attack, they would have to had all left Europe and be halfway to the Pacific in order to meet such a early-1946 deadline.

Total, yes. Actually functioning? Just 44 in AGC's sector as I said.

How many in AGC's sector? As with the above, you're committing the error of willful omission.

I'm not the one committing wifull omission. That's you, trying to pretend that Bagration represents the sum total of Soviet offensives in mid-1944. I'm looking at the whole of the Eastern Front, not just this one limited sector.

Really? Because as I recall Bagration lasted two months, while Lvov–Sandomierz Offensive lasted for one month as well.

Yes, really. The length the entire operation lasted is not the same thing as when the offensive overran their oppositions defenses. Breakthrough is only the first stage in a military operation, after all, to be followed by exploitation and the fact act you tried to conflate the two speaks to either ignorance of basic military affairs or willful misrepresentation. L'vov-Sandomierz began on July 13th. The right wing of the assault had smashed through German defenses by July 15th. The left-wing saw harder going, but also had completely cleared the German defensive belts by July 18th. For it's part, Bagration had the Red Army pour through the entire depth of German defensive lines on almost every sector of the Soviet attack by the end of the first day.
 
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Your post gave off the tone that the all units would be maintained. I said the number of combat vets in the ETO was relatively small... which it was. Even leaving aside that a vaster proportion of WAllied military manpower in Europe was devoted to deep rear service tasks then that of the Red Army or Wehrmacht (in part, because those tasks were being undertaken by German/Soviet civilian or paramilitary functions) and hence would have little opportunity to see combat, by the time they confronted major German formations they had such overwhelming advantage and advanced in such a methodical and broad manner that the "shallow" rear service personnel never had much opportunity to gain significant combat experience as was the case with the Soviets or Germans. WAllied veteran combat experience was hence heavily concentrated in the combat elements of their forces.

As to transfer to the Pacific, your link does not really support your claim: it discusses operations to be undertaken once they have redeployed to the Pacific by the start of 1946 but for that to be the case, those formations would have to begin redeploying in 1945. The logistics of shipping out hundreds of thousands, even millions, of men and their equipment without rendering them completely disorganized and combat incapable is a lengthy process and by the time the Soviets would attack, they would have to had all left Europe and be halfway to the Pacific in order to meet such a early-1946 deadline.

Where redeployments for Downfall are concerned, General MacArthur's AFPAC (Army Forces, Pacific) expected to absorb a large number of new units from Europe and the United States prior to the end of 1945.
These totalled 1,039,000 officers and men, exclusive of attrition replacements from CONUS (the ETO replacement stream had been shut off since March 1945 in anticipation of a showdown with Japan).

400,000 non-combat and service personnel were expected to arrive from ETO by Spring 1946, and 16 combat divisions were already en-route from that theater by the time the Japanese surrendered; four more had since received transfer notices. The air and armored forces were in the process of being similarly stripped down. Giangreco notes in "Hell to Pay" that the original plan for Operation Downfall envisioned 2,442,000 transfers from Europe and the USA to the Pacific Theater, and an additional 1,600,000 from Europe and Italy to the United States for general demobilization. Continued resistance by the Nazis into the spring of 1945 meant the former figure was cut by more than half, but the realities of the task at hand began to push the numbers up again.

Though far from a comprehensive list of all American AFVs to be sent to the Far East, on 18 July 1945 it was agreed in Paris that the M10 periscope system should be fitted on the following tanks earmarked for Downfall:

M24 Chaffee
October '45 - 460
November - 218
December - 228
-----------------------------------
Subtotal 906

1st Half of 1946 - 414
Total - 1,320

M4A3/76
October - 627
November - 289
December - 301
-----------------------------------
Subtotal 1,217

1st Half of 1946 - 624
Total - 1,841

M4A3/105
October - 99
November - 59
December - 61
-----------------------------------
Subtotal 219

1st Half of 1946 - 108
Total - 327

M26 Pershing
4th Quarter 1945 - 112
1st Half of 1946 - 163
Total - 295

Total 1945: 2,454
Grand Total: 3,783 tanks
 
That largely figures with some of the stuff I noted earlier, although as per OTL the demob of those divisions not slated to go to the Pacific would probably proceed at a faster pace then the military expected for the same reason it did OTL (public pressure from both the troops and at home). The removal of 20 US divisions for transfer, to say nothing of the losses to demobilization in both US and British divisions, is going to render it impossible for the Anglo-Americans to man a solid front across the continent from the Soviets and that's before we take into account issues like the qualitative decline I cited earlier and the fact that in terms of deployment formations will be strung out for occupation duty, not concentrated against a foe expecting to defend. Assuming the Soviets can maintain a significant degree of surprise (which is a reasonable assumption given their intelligence superiority, although not a guarantee), it'll probably be the worst military catastrophe in American military history.

Of course, that same factor loses the Soviets the war, whatever the outcome of the battle or even the campaign. Because the military catastrophe will largely be that of a treacherous, unprovoked surprise assault from an ostensible ally. If you thought American rage at Pearl Harbour was bad, this will make it look like the Japanese were dropping Christmas well-wishes and declaring their intent to withdraw from China alongside an everlasting love on December 7th. There will be no question of American willingness to jump in for the long war and bear whatever the cost to win it. And in a long war, the economic arithmetic make it clear that the Soviets are screwed, whatever short/medium-term gains they might make.
 
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Those were just the divisions expected to be transferred to the Pacific. After the defeat of Germany, on 12 May 1945 (R-Day), ETOUSA re-designated all divisions under its command as category I (occupation), category II (Pacific), category III (immediate demobilization), and category IV (delayed demobilization). Only 9 divisions were assigned category I status and occupation forces were to be reduced below half a million within a year of Germany's defeat. In August 1946 Eisenhower, during discussions with the British on the possibility of a future war with the USSR, spoke only in terms of retaining a bridgehead in the Low Countries.
 
Bump (post bump I'm opening up this topic to include any date between 1945 and 1953 as the start time to get past impasses over war occurring too early so as to allow the conversation to continue. Note, the later start dates (1950+) we are likely looking at a post downfall guerilla war in Japan which is not "during downfall" but I'll allow it.)
 
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