Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Bougnas]

Good reminder about Gardner. they had all the tooling for LW 150 hp class engines - Cast Iron for Marine engines but Aluminium for Land engines. Don't get me wrong it would be a much better choice in early 30s / mid 30s. Issue is , like most British land engines - still a bit small, and even if modularised up, would struggle as a path to second gen - HL240/ Meteor class. then again with the development put it it might. Still would have been a much better choice for most of the A numbered 30s and or an option in the 6 ton.

Just a big gap between the larger UK truck bus engines and train engines, if only I dunno Vulcan made smaller diesel train engines.......Bloody unions

Here's another abreviated alternative history.

I've made only cursory research on the Gardner diesels of the time period, but 6LW gives me 112hp before 1940/during WW2. Was there more? Interestingly enough the smaller 4LK series appeared to deliver more power per unit of displacement than the LW analogues, though maybe this didn't translate to an advantage when it comes to power relative to actual physical volume of the complete engine. In any case, the hp/L figures of the LW series are similar to those of the AEC diesel used in the Valentine, LK would be a bit better if its performance was scaled up to 6LW displacement. The AEC/Leylands in the Matilda II were of a similar quality to Val's AEC (just smaller displacement). So did the Gardner diesels show advantages compared to the other british bus diesels of the time, that is AEC and Leyland? Maybe better power density per weight/physical volume even if power density per displacement is lower?

But yeah. The sad thing about prewar-1941 Britain is that the commercial diesels didn't get the same treatment as gasolines were, when Meadows and Bedford created flat Vees out of commercial inline engines to improve weight/space efficiency compared to just using two inlines side by side. Worse, there were actual projects for relatively high performance Vee or flat diesels in 1940-41 in the 300-350hp range, some meant to replace existing engines such as the Bedford and Liberty, but they came too late to replace these engines as tanks already demanded greater power. If only they had started development in 1938 or even earlier when 300-350hp was still relevant and even quite high...

 

[Monty Man]

I've made only cursory research on the Gardner diesels of the time period, but 6LW gives me 112hp before 1940/during WW2. Was there more? Interestingly enough the smaller 4LK series appeared to deliver more power per unit of displacement than the LW analogues, though maybe this didn't translate to an advantage when it comes to power relative to actual physical volume of the complete engine. In any case, the hp/L figures of the LW series are similar to those of the AEC diesel used in the Valentine, LK would be a bit better if its performance was scaled up to 6LW displacement. The AEC/Leylands in the Matilda II were of a similar quality to Val's AEC (just smaller displacement). So did the Gardner diesels show advantages compared to the other british bus diesels of the time, that is AEC and Leyland? Maybe better power density per weight/physical volume even if power density per displacement is lower?

But yeah. The sad thing about prewar-1941 Britain is that the commercial diesels didn't get the same treatment as gasolines were, when Meadows and Bedford created flat Vees out of commercial inline engines to improve weight/space efficiency compared to just using two inlines side by side. Worse, there were actual projects for relatively high performance Vee or flat diesels in 1940-41 in the 300-350hp range, some meant to replace existing engines such as the Bedford and Liberty, but they came too late to replace these engines as tanks already demanded greater power. If only they had started development in 1938 or even earlier when 300-350hp was still relevant and even quite high...

Was there more? Not much more at least for a while. Still would have been better out the gate than fucking around with RR Phantom engines in the early 30s. Brazen makes an excellent point in bringing them up , but they didn't do much development in the 30s and just weren't at the advanced level of Hall&Oates / Packard. Probably why the RN went to the US in 1936 for Diesels. The post war development on the LW / LX series and adding a simple turbo show that the same basic 1930 engine had a lot of potential with a little work but it's not going to get beyond the 300HP range.

 

[JWilly48519]

Was there more? Not much more at least for a while. Still would have been better out the gate than fucking around with RR Phantom engines in the early 30s. Brazen makes an excellent point in bringing them up , but they didn't do much development in the 30s and just weren't at the advanced level of Hall&Oates / Packard. Probably why the RN went to the US in 1936 for Diesels. The post war development on the LW / LX series and adding a simple turbo show that the same basic 1930 engine had a lot of potential with a little work but it's not going to get beyond the 300HP range.

But the V12 Defender's supercharged marine and truck versions delivered 900hp, in the late 1930s, with about the same length (albeit more width) as the I-6 Invader...and those were made by the (low) thousands for use in heavy commercial trucks and earthmoving equipment.

 

[yulzari1]

The latest post only goes to show just how crazy, complex the French were, for a lot of people they were more interested in fighting the political battles of the inter war years. Than they were in putting their differences aside and combining to fight their common enemy, Germany. Unlike the British and Americans, both of whom managed to form unity governments containing elements from both sides of the political spectrum. The French didn’t, and this will hinder them in getting their voice heard at the high table of international affairs. While the Soviets would have preferred to exclude Britain from the major conferences, and only deal with the Americans, as would have the Americans too. Both of them realised that they weren’t in any position to do so, and so the British were sat alongside the Americans and Soviets, unlike the French or Chinese.

RR.

A national trait. Join a French hobby club and sit back to watch the cliques form and vie for power…..

 

[Palantir]

(63 and 68 BCC, possibly also known as 6e and 7e Chassuers d’Afrique)

Since the Chasseurs d'Afrique are from the cavalry, and the 63 and 68e BCC (bataillon de chars de combat) were present in 1940, it's the 63 and 68e BCC.

Marine National

Marine Nationale

Auphan, through his contacts with the Marine National in North Africa, was in regular communication with General Weygand. It was apparent that General Henri Giraud could not remain in France, so he, with much of his family, were smuggled over the border to Spain, and then on to Algiers. Already in contact with the Americans, Auphan offered the possibility that French fleet would sail for North Africa, but only if De Gaulle was replaced by Weygand as the head of the Free French movement.

You could sell tickets to watch the Saviour of Franceᵀᴹ find out about that.

Giraud tried it OTL and was quickly sidelined by de Gaulle.

The question is whether De Gaulle is more of a Frenchman, or more of glory-hound.

More a Frenchman, no question, but be sure that, like OTL, de Gaulle is far more cunning politically that other think. OTL, against Giraud, he was able to become co-leader, and then sideline him. Weygand might have more political capital than Giraud, but he has the same problem, de Gaulle was right when he was wrong in1940. Plus, in the end, Churchill and the UK will support de Gaulle as he was a minister (or rather the under-secretary for war) in the last IIIrd Republic government.

 

[Icedaemon]

The French navy actually becoming an active player in the war again might be interesting. It's doubtful they are actually going to be that useful, since the Kriegsmarine (and for that matter, the IJN) while capable cannot recover from it's losses while the USN and RN are very good at rebuilding their fleets. The Italian fleet might have been the most professional arm of their military, but they are totally outmatched by the RN by now.

 

[vl100butch]

Please accept my apologies in advance, but what would be available from the remains of the MN? The two battle-cruisers with an updated AAA suite would be very useful IF they are still available.

 

[Monty Man]

Please accept my apologies in advance, but what would be available from the remains of the MN? The two battle-cruisers with an updated AAA suite would be very useful IF they are still available.

Hmm Good question. I don't think much that's really useful at this point.
Regardless of timing , the same issues that led to the scuttling at Toulon are likely to happen. Vichy ships aren't crewed and fueled (some have some fuel secretly) ready to defect quickly, if an order goes out to do so then the Germans can and will intervene quickly which will lead to scuttling. Even if by some miracle more major elements do make it out - the issue of manning them and fitting them into operations isn't going to be straightforward - witness Lorraine , a modernised almost QE Class contemporary battleship (on paper more capable than the RN R-class that usefully guarded Convoys) . Lorraine was interned at Alex, sat around and joined in late '42. But she really didn't do much after. The need for intership coordination, different systems, language plus unique ammunition, baguettes, 174 diffrent types of cheese etc .

RN wasn't short of big gun ships OTL by '42 and ITTL it hasn't lost PoW and Repulse. Howe and Anson were 2 of the finest Battleships in the world ready in '42. But they didn't really do anything much after.

If Vichy goes earlier then their carrier Bearne would be useful (assuming the crew haven't consumed so much Rum during their stay in Martiniqe they can still fight)in North Atlantic for convoy duties for sure but wold probably need a FAA / USN aircrews. RCN was keen to learn carrier ops and had plenty of pilots, perhaps they can help. And bring Poutine.

Normandie would have been a very useful fast Transatlantic troopship but we're past the date ITTL timeline where she's burnt out in New York.

Still scuttling is good for RN - it removes a potential "fleet in being" and frees up more ships for elsewhere. Melt them down and build more Victors

 

[MattII]

A ship doesn't have to have a lot of fuel to escape, as long as it can be protected while running at low speed.

 

[JWilly48519]

The MN would have had to run quite a ways before friendly air cover would be available. No 1940-42 French ships other than the experimentally armed aviso Amiens had an effective AA capability against dive or torpedo bombers. An escape at night might have worked at high speed. At low speed, at dawn the ships still would be in Luftwaffe range and without any friendly CAP.

 

[JamesHunter]

The MN would have had to run quite a ways before friendly air cover would be available. No 1940-42 French ships other than the experimentally armed aviso Amiens had an effective AA capability against dive or torpedo bombers. An escape at night might have worked at high speed. At low speed, at dawn the ships still would be in Luftwaffe range and without any friendly CAP.

I'd assume arrangements to have carriers off the coast would have to be made (and all the other ships to protect the carriers from subs). Also the Luftwaffe's anti shipping capacity was always poor and is getting much worse at this point in the war. As long as FW200's aren't involved they can probably break through any Stuka attacks (except for one specially trained squadron the JU87 was notably poor at hitting ships) and reach some form of safety.

Submarines are the bigger problem but if allied destroyers can reach the french fleet they should be able to cover it well enough from U-boats during the crossing.

 

[Wet Coast]

Plus, in the end, Churchill and the UK will support de Gaulle as he was a minister (or rather the under-secretary for war) in the last IIIrd Republic government.

At one point both Churchill and Roosevelt (especially Roosevelt) wanted to get rid of de Gaulle. If there is a credible alternative, he may find some traction.

 

[JamesHunter]

At one point both Churchill and Roosevelt (especially Roosevelt) wanted to get rid of de Gaulle. If there is a credible alternative, he may find some traction.

True and De Gaulle held office for only a very brief period, if someone better came along they'd take them, especially someone who could reunite the two Half's of the French military.

 

[Monty Man]

Good point. And ITTL, I keep pointing out that there is more than 4th Luft supporting Army group south. Allan stated the med anti shipping Luftwaffe had all flown off with Kesslering as Luft 2 was off to Kharkov. Stalin's pain may be the French Navy's gain. But still it would require decisive clear direction and leadership to coordinate a rapid breakout and that is certainly not Plat du Jour for the French in '42.

 

[Schlock]

On the other hand, there has been a fairly long build up to this, so it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that the MN could make preparations.

 

[JWilly48519]

Sending the Luftwaffe to sink French ships after they had left the harbor would be complicated on multiple levels.

If the Germans had intelligence of a possible French escape-sortie, or knowledge of carriers entering the Mediterranean and no good explanation, an easier approach to assuring that the MN stayed in harbor might have been to lay magnetic mines in the harbor mouth. The Germans had air-dropped, reliably functioning, quite effective magnetic mines for shallow waters (i.e. harbors) in 1939-40. To the best of my knowledge, the French never had anti-magnetic-mine technology. Mines like that could be laid at night with little risk to the aircraft involved.

Of course, those mines could be detonated one or possibly two at a time by sending old, low-value vessels over them...but those vessels, having sunk after being mined, would quite effectively block moderate-depth channels until divers could cut them up...which would have the same effect, of temporarily blocking the MN from sortieing.

 

[MattII]

If the Germans had intelligence of a possible French escape-sortie, or knowledge of carriers entering the Mediterranean and no good explanation, an easier approach to assuring that the MN stayed in harbor might have been to lay magnetic mines in the harbor mouth. The Germans had air-dropped, reliably functioning, quite effective magnetic mines for shallow waters (i.e. harbors) in 1939-40. To the best of my knowledge, the French never had anti-magnetic-mine technology. Mines like that could be laid at night with little risk to the aircraft involved.

The cover of night ought to also allow the Allies to sneak a carrier force into the Med without too many prying eyes. And again, if they limit their top speed to the immediate escape from harbour, before dropping back to low speed, they shouldn't need too much fuel to make the crossing, perhaps enough not to arouse German suspicions.

 

[kelgar04]

Also even if the Luft catch up with them there is no Garuntee they will be able to hit a ship that's trying to maneuver as well as what ever anti Air fire that goes after them.

However the French Navy has been sat in dock for a while so I'd be worried about skill degradation as well as possible technical issues of firing them up again if they have been sat there unfueled with just a dead man watch and an occasional bit of maintenance.

 

[MattII]

Well even if they can't make top speed, if they can at least get out of the port under darkness and head south, they ought to do alright, especially in the British and Americans have arranged an escort.

 

[JamesHunter]

Well even if they can't make top speed, if they can at least get out of the port under darkness and head south, they ought to do alright, especially in the British and Americans have arranged an escort.

Also looks good, the fist of France smashing it's way back out of the German cage.