Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears

Status
Not open for further replies.
Going back on my previous comment, I think one ITTL historian might refer to the period of Drew's TL (1972-1990s) as, like, one giant period of global crisis.

Maybe calling it the Late 20th Century Crisis, or the Late 20th Century Tumult, unifying the various horrors the world has experienced into one vast period of chaos.

Here are the various conflicts that have occurred:

* The energy crises of the 1970s, and the Second Great Depression.

* The Agnew Presidency, the political polarization of the period, the rise of Donald Rumsfeld, the succession of several American states, the war in Cuba, the creation of the CSA, and the nuclear Second American Civil War (which is I think will be the central catastrophe of the Late 20th Century Crisis).

* The rise of Pinochet, Operation Condor, and the brief border war between Argentina and Brazil

* The Brazilian dictatorship, and Brazil's civil war.

* The Greece-Turkey-Cyprus conflict, and Greece's civil war.

* The Southern African conflict, South Africa's descent into a genocidal white supremacist state, the environmental damage to Southern Africa, and the coming South African civil conflict.

* The brutal Indo-Pakistani War, and India's slow breakup and collapse into civil war.

* The Sino-Mongolian War, the rise of the Lesser Mao, the China White epidemic, the Chinese democide, the Kwangsi Nuclear Disaster, China's collapse into another warring states' period, the rise of the Chinese caliphate, and the border conflicts between the various powers over China's territory.

* The various skirmishes in Indochina throughout the 1970s.

* The Troubles of Northern Ireland.

* The near breakup of Canada after the almost-secession of Quebec.

* The collapse of many Arab states, including Saudi Arabia, into fanatic and radical Islamist regimes, the increasingly land-hungry Iraq, the increasingly expansionist and racist Israel, the political chaos of Iran.

* The overthrow of Estado Novo, and its replacement with a more radical communist regime.

* The political transition of the Spanish state, and the separation of the Basque region.

* Zaire's annexation of the Central African Republic.'

The late 20th century will match the period between 1914-1945 as a period of general violence and death.

In world history terms, I can imagine a massive contrast is going to be made by future historians between what people imagined the 20th century would be like, and the bloody, apocalyptic reality it turned into.

It will be seen as one of the great tragedies of history. People at the turn of the century, full of all of the optimism of the Belle Époque, imagined a future of unparalleled prosperity and world harmony, where technology would herald abundance, would eliminate poverty, and through interconnection, would bring the nations of the world together. The result was a century that saw two world wars, widespread genocide, nuclear devastation, economic turmoil, Fascism, Stalinism, the horrific collapse of China, brutal civil wars in India and Brazil, the chaos of decolonisation (I can imagine the war in South Africa being lumped into this period) and finally the apocalyptic religious fanaticism of the Christian States of America.

The chief lesson from the period, I imagine, would be to never take anything for granted. People in OTL still question how a nation like Germany could have gone down the horrific path of Nazism. This sort of confusion would increase exponentially in TTL, certainly I think with regard to the collapse of the United States. For decades, if not centuries to come, people will struggle to understand how a nation that basically conceived of the idea of checks and balances, that prided itself as a haven for political refugees, that saw itself as the global arsenal of democracy and which fought a global war against authoritarianism only decades beforehand, was able to succumb to the very thing that it was set up to oppose. Above all, historians might point to the fact that long-cherished concepts like "liberty", "freedom" and "democracy" were bandied about and trivialised by political authoritarians until they had become worthless buzzwords, and before Americans could realise it, their political system had failed, their constitution had been torn to shreds, and the country collapsed. Certainly a keen awareness of the political system, of the duties of citizenship, and of civic responsibility will become absolutely paramount to education in the future, if anything like catastrophe of the 20th century is to be avoided.

Following on from this (and I think it has been mentioned before on this thread), the second lesson from this entire period would probably be the dangers of zealotry, of any kind. Any ideology, taken to its radical conclusion, will be seen as potentially lethal. As a result, historians might end up calling the entire century "the Age of Fanaticism" or "the Age of Ideology", hopefully, in the minds of historians, that a future world order will be built around consensus and reflection.
 

Geon

Donor
I sent a PM to Drew on this but I wanted to pose this question on this thread given it is still active.

What happened to the evangelical movement to turn it into something so vicious? The CV is Nazism 2.0. As an evangelical I can tell you that the Falwell, the Robertson, and the LaHaye of our TL would absolutely reject this version of fascism. They sought change yes, but having for a time been part of LU (then LBC) and of Falwell's church I can tell you the late Dr. Falwell would be horrified at this travesty.

What happened?

Also, what do some of you think the future of the evangelical church/movement will be following the inevitable fall of CV? Will religious freedom still exist in the U.S.?
 
I sent a PM to Drew on this but I wanted to pose this question on this thread given it is still active.

What happened to the evangelical movement to turn it into something so vicious? The CV is Nazism 2.0. As an evangelical I can tell you that the Falwell, the Robertson, and the LaHaye of our TL would absolutely reject this version of fascism. They sought change yes, but having for a time been part of LU (then LBC) and of Falwell's church I can tell you the late Dr. Falwell would be horrified at this travesty.

What happened?

Also, what do some of you think the future of the evangelical church/movement will be following the inevitable fall of CV? Will religious freedom still exist in the U.S.?
As for what happened?

Like many people in this timeline, they got drunk on their own Kool Aid. All three wearn’t able to obtain political power in our timeline, here the exact opposite waa true.

Soceity collasped and people were willing to listen to complete and utter extremists, just like the Weimer Republic.

Also as for the fate of the Evangelical Movement it entirly depends on what happens to the CV. If they are defeated expect it to go the way of German Nationalism.

If it isnt then Evangelicalism will remain a powerful force in America, look at Communism in Russia or Post-ISIS Islamists in Iraq.
 
I sent a PM to Drew on this but I wanted to pose this question on this thread given it is still active.

What happened to the evangelical movement to turn it into something so vicious? The CV is Nazism 2.0. As an evangelical I can tell you that the Falwell, the Robertson, and the LaHaye of our TL would absolutely reject this version of fascism. They sought change yes, but having for a time been part of LU (then LBC) and of Falwell's church I can tell you the late Dr. Falwell would be horrified at this travesty.

What happened?

Also, what do some of you think the future of the evangelical church/movement will be following the inevitable fall of CV? Will religious freedom still exist in the U.S.?
I can't say for sure about Robertson or Falwell, but I can believe that LaHaye would support something like the CV.

Read this by a dude called the Slacktavist, his review of the Left Behind novels gives a good indication of LaHaye's mindset and IMO can see such a man being a supporter of the CV's actions ITTL.
 
I sent a PM to Drew on this but I wanted to pose this question on this thread given it is still active.

What happened to the evangelical movement to turn it into something so vicious? The CV is Nazism 2.0. As an evangelical I can tell you that the Falwell, the Robertson, and the LaHaye of our TL would absolutely reject this version of fascism. They sought change yes, but having for a time been part of LU (then LBC) and of Falwell's church I can tell you the late Dr. Falwell would be horrified at this travesty.

What happened?

Also, what do some of you think the future of the evangelical church/movement will be following the inevitable fall of CV? Will religious freedom still exist in the U.S.?

It's hard to say for sure.

I did mention earlier in the thread Jack Chick, the creator of the infamous Chick Tracts. IMHO, he'd probably be against the CV government. In spite of the more extreme views espoused in his tracts, he was actually against replacing the US secular government with a theocracy; Chick supported the Constitution.
 
In world history terms, I can imagine a massive contrast is going to be made by future historians between what people imagined the 20th century would be like, and the bloody, apocalyptic reality it turned into.

It will be seen as one of the great tragedies of history. People at the turn of the century, full of all of the optimism of the Belle Époque, imagined a future of unparalleled prosperity and world harmony, where technology would herald abundance, would eliminate poverty, and through interconnection, would bring the nations of the world together. The result was a century that saw two world wars, widespread genocide, nuclear devastation, economic turmoil, Fascism, Stalinism, the horrific collapse of China, brutal civil wars in India and Brazil, the chaos of decolonisation (I can imagine the war in South Africa being lumped into this period) and finally the apocalyptic religious fanaticism of the Christian States of America.

The chief lesson from the period, I imagine, would be to never take anything for granted. People in OTL still question how a nation like Germany could have gone down the horrific path of Nazism. This sort of confusion would increase exponentially in TTL, certainly I think with regard to the collapse of the United States. For decades, if not centuries to come, people will struggle to understand how a nation that basically conceived of the idea of checks and balances, that prided itself as a haven for political refugees, that saw itself as the global arsenal of democracy and which fought a global war against authoritarianism only decades beforehand, was able to succumb to the very thing that it was set up to oppose. Above all, historians might point to the fact that long-cherished concepts like "liberty", "freedom" and "democracy" were bandied about and trivialised by political authoritarians until they had become worthless buzzwords, and before Americans could realise it, their political system had failed, their constitution had been torn to shreds, and the country collapsed. Certainly a keen awareness of the political system, of the duties of citizenship, and of civic responsibility will become absolutely paramount to education in the future, if anything like catastrophe of the 20th century is to be avoided.

Following on from this (and I think it has been mentioned before on this thread), the second lesson from this entire period would probably be the dangers of zealotry, of any kind. Any ideology, taken to its radical conclusion, will be seen as potentially lethal. As a result, historians might end up calling the entire century "the Age of Fanaticism" or "the Age of Ideology", hopefully, in the minds of historians, that a future world order will be built around consensus and reflection.

I think the fate of America ITTL is especially horrific. By the end of the 1960s, American had the highest standard of living, passed laws protecting the rights of minorities and woman, expanded the rights of the accused, and gone to the moon. Within two decades, America first becomes a police state with the worst excesses of robber baron capitalism. Then it starts killing its wounded soldiers. And then upon the ruins of that corporatist state arises a brutal, totalitarian theocracy that starts a medieval crusade using advanced weaponry.

America went from an age of progressivism to an age of reaction in a very short amount of time. The very man who voted for the Civil Rights Act, Donald Rumsfeld, would be the man who would destroy civil liberties just 17 years later.

Well, I imagine there will be essays and essays that try to understand how the late 20th century got so horrible, how this country go so terrible, etc.

Well, there are two answers I can provide.

In 1958, Aldous Huxley gave a brilliant interview with Mike Wallace about what he feels will be the dictatorship of the future. ITTL, it might be even more prescient then ever. In this video, Huxley talks about what he feels could bring about totalitarianism: tumult and social unrest brought by resource shortages, growing authoritarianism to deal with this unrest, followed by dictators who use technology to "bypass the rational side of man and appeal to his subconscious", and the copious use of mind altering drugs.

ITTL, America has faced a particularly harsh recession caused by oil shortages, followed by a massive crime and terrorist wave.

ITTL, America has seen the expansion of police powers and mass incarceration to deal with this crime wave.

ITTL, America has seen the growth of two highly reactionary political regimes, who used dog whistles and exploited people's fears and prejudices to gain power, with the help of an increasingly mighty television network that broadcasted this stuff over the airwaves.

ITTL, America has seen a rapid drug epidemic, and the use of drugs on political dissidents.

The other answer is that in many of these societies, especially in America, the groundwork for their descent in madness was built on the very flaws in their society.

America may talk about being a "free society", but at the core of American society is also racism, religious fanaticism paranoia, and the support of the needs of the individual over the collective good of society as a whole. The toxic attributes already existed. It just took the wrong kind of people to bring them to the surface.

This also combined with the technological advances of the 20th century, gave an apparatus for these evils to be unleash on a level unprecedented in history.

I sent a PM to Drew on this but I wanted to pose this question on this thread given it is still active.

What happened to the evangelical movement to turn it into something so vicious? The CV is Nazism 2.0. As an evangelical I can tell you that the Falwell, the Robertson, and the LaHaye of our TL would absolutely reject this version of fascism. They sought change yes, but having for a time been part of LU (then LBC) and of Falwell's church I can tell you the late Dr. Falwell would be horrified at this travesty.

What happened?

Also, what do some of you think the future of the evangelical church/movement will be following the inevitable fall of CV? Will religious freedom still exist in the U.S.?

Well, he's my simple response to this.

I am not criticizing people who are evangelical, but many modern day religious figures often prioritize religious values over other more serious needs.

The very people who scream about abortion threatening their children were pretty silent when the children of Flint were poisoned with contaminated water.

In other words, many, many religious figures are often selfish, self-centered, and heartless people.

Robertson, for example, is a man who used his connections to avoid real military service, and he also enjoys business deals with the likes of Mobutu Sese Seko, while preaching chastity and shit to other people. As I was helping Drew write this, I figure

Evangelical figures given the reigns of unlimited power would be incredibly dangerous, because they prioritize their beliefs over any actual common good.

And what do you mean when you talk about religious freedom? I don't think religion will have the esteem in once held? Religion will be defended, but I can imagine it being booted from the public sphere for a long time.
 
Did he say things that the ITTL CV government would actually be doing?

He has advocated abortion in China, despite his 'Christian principles' because there are too many Chinese. He and Falwell blamed 911 on gays and lesbians on national television. He has called for the lord to send confusion onto opponents of Kavanaugh. He hasn't outright called for genocide or the ITTL CV agenda, but it's pretty clear that he and Falwell endorse a reactionary agenda of extremism without anything resembling perspective. The Falwell and Robertson of OTL are public figures barely constrained by the norms and moral boundaries of our time and our public. Without those limiters, I could easily see them drifting steadily into the CV agenda.
 
He has advocated abortion in China, despite his 'Christian principles' because there are too many Chinese. He and Falwell blamed 911 on gays and lesbians on national television. He has called for the lord to send confusion onto opponents of Kavanaugh. He hasn't outright called for genocide or the ITTL CV agenda, but it's pretty clear that he and Falwell endorse a reactionary agenda of extremism without anything resembling perspective. The Falwell and Robertson of OTL are public figures barely constrained by the norms and moral boundaries of our time and our public. Without those limiters, I could easily see them drifting steadily into the CV agenda.

On Last Week Tonight, John Oliver did a segment on Brett Kavanaugh, and the circus that is his existence.

One excerpt from a clip showed an anti-abortion activist say, with a straight face, even if he Kavanaugh is guilty of harassment, he will still support Kavanaugh, because he wants abortion ended in America.

This is just one example of religious extremists pushing their agenda, and not caring about the consequences. As John Oliver points out, the consequence is a man who has shown little maturity or even a modicum of grace being allow to sit on the nation's highest bench.

So yeah, seeing the religious extremists committing heinous crimes if given absolute power would not be unexpected, except for the well-intentioned but misguided people who still worship them as defenders of Christendom.
 
On Last Week Tonight, John Oliver did a segment on Brett Kavanaugh, and the circus that is his existence.

One excerpt from a clip showed an anti-abortion activist say, with a straight face, even if he Kavanaugh is guilty of harassment, he will still support Kavanaugh, because he wants abortion ended in America.

This is just one example of religious extremists pushing their agenda, and not caring about the consequences. As John Oliver points out, the consequence is a man who has shown little maturity or even a modicum of grace being allow to sit on the nation's highest bench.

So yeah, seeing the religious extremists committing heinous crimes if given absolute power would not be unexpected, except for the well-intentioned but misguided people who still worship them as defenders of Christendom.

The one thing that the 20th century taught us is that well intentioned but misguided people are capable of enacting and supporting the most horrific atrocities.

Kavanaugh is not accused of harassment, he's accused of assault, forcible confinement, multiple counts of sexual assault and procuring. This compares to harassment as a wolverine compares to a kitten. I'm sorry to be so pedantic. I have this emotional thing about sexual assault.
 
The one thing that the 20th century taught us is that well intentioned but misguided people are capable of enacting and supporting the most horrific atrocities.

Yeah, for a lot of people who do consider themselves to be Christian, it is going to be very difficult for them to think the force of good in their lives devolved into something so horrific.

I think a lot of conservative Christians, especially those who still want influence in the public arena, will be like "Coe was not a true Christian". Denialism might be pretty common ITTL, especially for those Christians unable to comprehend what was done in Jesus' name.

Kavanaugh is not accused of harassment, he's accused of assault, forcible confinement, multiple counts of sexual assault and procuring. This compares to harassment as a wolverine compares to a kitten. I'm sorry to be so pedantic. I have this emotional thing about sexual assault.

Sorry, I didn't mean to trivialize.

The simple truth is, what unites all extremists, whether they are Nazis, Stalinists, and (ITTL) Rumsfeldians, Maoists, and CVers is a complete disregard of all morality and human life in order to implement their ideas upon other peoples.

The fact that the GOP is willing to elevate a man who never hears the word "no" shows they are extremists, for disregarding basic human decency for their ideals.
 
I thought of a POD ITTL that could have lead to a (relatively) successful form of a CV America- as in, doesn't collapse into a violent civil war.

Someone in an earlier post imagined if Rumsfeld has chosen a different CV person, besides Jeremiah Denton, to serve as his Vice-President after shipping Edwards off to the loony bin.

Jeremiah Denton got to be President in Rumsfeldia, but having been haunted by the treatment of those given nervous breakdowns, he pushed away any attempts at theocracy, in favor of rebuilding the country. Unfortunately, Denton presided over a broken federal government, he lacked the political skill necessary to unite the divided political forces to rebuild America, and his CV allies abandoned him and sabotaged his efforts at reform. This paved the way for Robertson to win the election, forcing Denton into obscurity.

But what if Rumsfeld has chosen a more devoted, but politically savvy, CV follower?

In the post, the person chose Richard Viguerie, and I realize how Viguerie becoming President could have radically changed America.

Obviously, Viguerie might not feel burdened by guilt as Denton was, and would thus be eager to implement Christian policies. Viguerie was involved with some pretty shady things OTL, like the American Independent Party, and the Unification Church, which demonstrates he is not a particularly nice person.

Viguerie, however, is nothing, if not a brilliant political operator. I imagine he would have no problem working with the CV infrastructure to pursue his goals. However, what would make Viguerie different from Robertson would be a willingness to compromise with opposition forces.

While Viguerie would like to build a Dominionist America, I think he would recognize that this would create provoke large scale resistance from places like the Northeast and the Libertarian West. I think he would also be smart enough to understand the need to rebuild America's image in the world, after Rumsfeld had so thoroughly tarnished it.

So, instead of pushing for grotesque policies that basically tear up the Constitution, and trying to impose military force to force states into accepting his will, he forges a compromise with non-CV states: the compromise allows the states to impose whatever policies they desire within their borders. While CV states can impose their ideals in their own nation, the Northeastern states and the Libertarian regions would be allowed to build their own policies. This allows Viguerie to claim he is defending the right of communities to retain their "traditional values", while respecting federalist principles of states' rights. This attitude could help bring the Libertarians, at least, to the negotiating table.

Viguerie also makes overtures that improve America's international standing, somewhat. He stops the most odious aspects of Rumsfeld's foreign policy, like support for Magnus Malan (while of course supporting dictatorial regimes in Latin America). He also chooses to recognize California and Hawaii's independence, and gives anyone the right to move there if they desire. Besides, letting those two states leave peacefully serves him better than starting a civil war, since it means there would be less liberal states that would challenge his agenda. He might even encourage other anti-CV states to secede as well. He also is willing to forge trade deals with the increasingly prosperous Eastern bloc, shoring up support among the business community. Finally, he chooses to withdraw from Cuba.

In states that do embrace the CV, you see more or less lighter versions of Pat Robertson's policies: prayer in schools, no abortion, etc. But not the severely totalitarian policies that characterize the Robertson and Coe administrations.

So, Viguerie ends of leaving office as the man who helped rebuild the United States, a hero to his followers, and somewhat respected by his political opponents.

But the question is, would Viguerie's compromise be tenable, or would a potential Christian Values successor be less pragmatic, tear up his agreements and policies, and like Pat Robertson and Douglas Coe, attempt to bring hell down on anti-CV regions?
 
Last edited:
(snip)

But the question is, would Viguerie's compromise be tenable, or would a potential Christian Values successor be less pragmatic, tear up his agreements and policies, and like Pat Robertson and Douglas Coe, attempt to bring hell down on anti-CV regions?
I think LaHaye and Coe would kill him the same way they bumped off Robertson, unless Viguerie strikes sooner and carries out a Khrushchev-style purge. We can safely assume that Viguerie would run as the CV candidate in the 1988 election and be re-elected. Not too sure which side Robertson and Denton would be on, in this alternate-alternate timeline.

It's also a bit hard to say if other countries will resume trade and loans with the United States, especially if New England and the Pacific Northwest secedes. They might simply associate the CV-aligned portion of America with Rumsfeld, and choose to trade only with California and New England, in which case Middle and Deep South America remain economically stagnant and rife with dissent.

Viguerie's successor would be interesting. If New England secedes, the Electoral College will firmly side with the CVs every single time. The question is who would he pick.
 
Also, I was re-reading old updates in the FLaG thread out of boredom, and came across this:
House of Representatives Races of note:


Louisiana 5th (Northeast Louisiana)


Otto Passman (D) (inc) 32%
Bill Lovesay (R) 34 %
James W. Swaggart (I) 34 %


Run-off (December 11, 1974)

James W. Swaggart (I) 61.1% - Independent pick-up
Bill Lovesay (R) 38.9%
For those who don't know, it's this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart

Drew was already planning all this back then. All these years ago. Wow.
 
I think LaHaye and Coe would kill him the same way they bumped off Robertson, unless Viguerie strikes sooner and carries out a Khrushchev-style purge. We can safely assume that Viguerie would run as the CV candidate in the 1988 election and be re-elected. Not too sure which side Robertson and Denton would be on, in this alternate-alternate timeline.


Coe and LaHaye would only be screwing themselves. If Viguerie was killed in 1988, then it would mean Trent Lott would have become president, who while being a certified bastard in this TL, would be slightly more sane then Viguerie. And if that were to occur, then their chances of a CSA would be weakened further.

Well, Robertson was slightly more sane then Coe, so he would probably help out Viguerie in his endeavors. Denton, as stated, was horrified by the nervous breakdown treatments. So he probably would be more interested in aiding the person who would solve that problem.


It's also a bit hard to say if other countries will resume trade and loans with the United States, especially if New England and the Pacific Northwest secedes. They might simply associate the CV-aligned portion of America with Rumsfeld, and choose to trade only with California and New England, in which case Middle and Deep South America remain economically stagnant and rife with dissent.

It would largely depend on how much Viguerie would be willing to rectify the international wrongs Rumsfeld committed, how far he would take his rhetoric, and how much he acts like an authoritarian nutcase. I imagine him being sane enough to realize America needs trade in order to recover from Rumsfeldia, but would he be willing to go beyond token gestures and work to restore America's relationship with the world?

Viguerie's successor would be interesting. If New England secedes, the Electoral College will firmly side with the CVs every single time. The question is who would he pick.

Someone with enough common sense to know nuking the world is bad, I suppose.

So you think, even if Viguerie compromises with the Northeastern and Libertarian States, they still would most likely secede from the Union?
 
I’ve been thinking about it, and I don’t think the east and west would even want to rejoin the United States. The middle of the country and the south has screwed then and oppressed them and finally destroyed themselves? And now they have the gall to ask to reunite? No. Let them rot.

I think that’s going to be a very common mindset. The ties of the United States will have been utterly shattered.
 

Coe and LaHaye would only be screwing themselves. If Viguerie was killed in 1988, then it would mean Trent Lott would have become president, who while being a certified bastard in this TL, would be slightly more sane then Viguerie. And if that were to occur, then their chances of a CSA would be weakened further. Well, Robertson was slightly more sane then Coe, so he would probably help out Viguerie in his endeavors. Denton, as stated, was horrified by the nervous breakdown treatments. So he probably would be more interested in aiding the person who would solve that problem.
LaHaye and Coe wouldn't be stupid enough to make Trent Lott Acting President. I was thinking after the 1988 election when the Speaker of the House would be Jimmy Swaggart or some other CVer.


So you think, even if Viguerie compromises with the Northeastern and Libertarian States, they still would most likely secede from the Union?
Honestly, yes, I think they would. Maybe the Libertarians would stay, since they seem to be the 'leave us alone and let us do our own thing' sort, but California and Hawaii have already shown New England/Washington-Oregon that the idea of preserving the Union is dead.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top