Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears

[Drew]

I have another "Where Are They Now?" list:

James Burke - several of these
Tariq Ali - probably a UK based activist and persistent critic of the military regime in Pakistan, highly critical of its involvement in the Indian Civil War. Probably thinks the WTP spends too much effort on ideological purity and not enough time combatting Rumsfeld. Probably has a few unkind words for MBA Communism's state capitalist system.
Geoffrey Howe - would see him breaking with the hard right, perhaps drifting to the liberals
Jeremy Corbyn - member of this TL's Social Democratic (True Labour) Party - probably and activist
Jim Prior - as Geoffrey Howe
Naomi Klein - taking care of her mother
Boris Johnson - probably still at Oxford
Barry Goldwater Jr - went to California after his father "disappeared", but his Rumsfeld like term as Governor of California would make many there regard him with suspicion
George McGovern - Found Canadian exile to his liking
Tony Blair - A Labour backbencher or PPS
Gordon Brown - his death was mentioned in Gumbo
John Major - The dullest banking executive you could ever meet
Silvio Berlusconi - after his involvement with Propaganda Due and the attempted right wing coup he went to prison for a time, and now finds he has to sing (literaly) for his supper as his assets have been seized
Morgan Freeman -I'll go with actor and WTP activist - fighting the influences of Rumsfeld and Agnew in NYC's culture wars
Curtis LeMay - One-time pro-Rumsfeldian dismayed by the loss of NATO - could have lead to his nervous breakdown
Muammar Gaddafi - still dictator of Libya and fighting PJO insurgents - too busy to bother with world revolutionary movements

 

[David Ritz]

Thank you.

By the way, it is James Burke the British technological historian and presenter of Connections.

Did you see my speculation on The Coming Caesars and Simon Schama's documentary for the last page?

 

[bookmark95]

I feel bad for anyone who returned from exile during the brief "Dentonia" period, only to suddenly find yourself being governed by a bunch of maniacs.

 

[David Ritz]

I feel bad for anyone who returned from exile during the brief "Dentonia" period, only to suddenly find yourself being governed by a bunch of maniacs.

Indeed. It's like the early 1970s in TTL China - an interlude of hope for reform after a period of ideological zealotry only to see even more deprave madmen seize power.

 

[Alpha-King98760]

Indeed. It's like the early 1970s in TTL China - an interlude of hope for reform after a period of ideological zealotry only to see even more deprave madmen seize power.

I wonder what Ayatollah Khomeini think of the Christian Values?

 

[Lost Freeway]

I wonder what Ayatollah Khomeini think of the Christian Values?

You'd need a medium to find out.

 

[Alpha-King98760]

You'd need a medium to find out.

I meant OTL Khomeini (though he's dead as well).

 

[Lost Freeway]

I meant OTL Khomeini (though he's dead as well).

Probably grudging admiration.

 

[Alpha-King98760]

Probably grudging admiration.

Of course, the bastard would think that.

 

[Whumbly]

Morgan Freeman -I'll go with actor and WTP activist - fighting the influences of Rumsfeld and Agnew in NYC's culture wars.

I can imagine him being a DJ for a underground radio station with a leftist slant. With that golden voice people wouldn't care what that man was talking about, so long as he just kept at it.

 

[Miss Teri]

Probably grudging admiration.

I don't think he would have any admiration for them at all. Say what you will about the man, I don't think he would approve of using nuclear weapons on your own people.

 

[bookmark95]

I don't think he would have any admiration for them at all. Say what you will about the man, I don't think he would approve of using nuclear weapons on your own people.

He would, however, be impressed with their use of child soldiers, and perfecting flogging as a method of punishment.

 

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

That loveable man Nixon and his best Spiro are gonna be the ones who save the day.

You are joking, but people like them are the kind of people CONUS needs the most.

This came out clearly in a conversation between the former president and then Russian foreign minister Andrei Kozyrev in the spring of 1992. I remember the conversation vividly: Nixon asked Kozyrev how his government was defining Russian national interests. Kozyrev, known for his pro-Western orientation, replied that in the past Russia has suffered greatly from focusing too intently on its own interests at the expense of the rest of the world. Now was the time, he added, for Russia “to think more in terms of universal human values.” “Well,” Nixon, responded wryly, “that is a very commendable sentiment on the Minister’s part. But surely there are some particular interests which Russia considers important as an emerging power?” Kozyrev was not persuaded. Probably there are such uniquely Russian interests, he said, but the Russian government had not yet had a chance to focus on them. “Perhaps, President Nixon, as a friend of Russian democracy you would be willing to help to identify them?” Kozyrev inquired with a shy smile.

The former president somehow kept his poker face. “I would not presume to tell the minister what Russian national interests should be. I am sure that in due time he will find them on his own. But I would like to make one point. Russia cannot and should not attempt to walk in lockstep with the United States on all foreign policy issues. As a great country, Russia has its own destiny. We want Russia as a friend, and we tremendously appreciate your personal friendship, Mr. Minister, but I know that anyone in Russia who tries to follow foreign advice too closely is bound to get into trouble. And we do not want this to happen to our friends.”

Once out of the Foreign Ministry building and back in the limousine, Nixon asked me for my evaluation of Kozyrev. I said that he was well meaning but unimpressive, and that unless he were to grow quickly on the job, there was a risk that he would make himself vulnerable to public indignation over a blindly pro-Western policy--and possibly make even the United States guilty by association.

"That is exactly my point. He is a nice man. But you need a real son of bitch to do this job right, Dimitri," Nixon replied. "You need to be able to see straight, but also to be ruthless to build a new country on the ruins of an empire. I can't see respecting Russian people respecting wimps like that."

This was vintage Nixon. Here he was, in Moscow, appalled by a Russian foreign minister asking for his guidance and being too deferential to the United States. Surely, treated with so much respect--and, in effect, being offered a role as a senior advisor to the Russian leadership--could not but delight Nixon. He loved confirmations of his influence, and the more public the better. But as much as he wanted to have an impact, Richard Nixon wanted to have the right impact, especially on the key foreign policy issues that make him tick. Thus, he was brutally honest in his assessment of Kozyrev's flattering remarks. Subsequent events have demonstrated that he was also absolutely right.

After the Collapse: Russia Seeks Its Place as a Great Power, Introdction, page 19-20 by Dimitri K. Simes

POTUS Jeremiah Denton turned out to be too nice.

 

[Miss Teri]

He would, however, be impressed with their use of child soldiers, and perfecting flogging as a method of punishment.

I just reread that update. Where do they mention Child Soldiers?

 

[Lost Freeway]

I just reread that update. Where do they mention Child Soldiers?

IIRC, the child soldiers thing was something we were speculating they'd do, and not mentioned in the actual update.

 

[David Ritz]

I wonder how Mrs. Thatcher is doing at this time. I find it curious that most alternate histories portray her as an extremist fanatic - a British Stephen Harper if you will. This was the case in What If Gordon Banks Had Played? as well as Rumsfeldia as this quote attests:

Margaret Thatcher remains a media critic of everything the Labour government does, and equally of the Liberal Party, whom she often denigrates as “soft-bottom labour without guts.” At times she praises Neave, but at other times she calls Neave’s Tories weak as well, usually when they veer from hard-right policies. In Thatcher’s book, even President Rumsfeld is not being tough enough. Her following is narrow, but vocal, and there are private broadcasters who are willing to give her a platform to espouse her views.

Knowing what happened in actual history, I question these assessments somewhat. OTL Thatcher's Britain certainly never became a British Rumsfeldia (I think this video could be potential propaganda in such a scenario and this video could be an excellent presentation of that ideological mentality ). From what I have read about Mrs. T, she was something of an ideologue early on. On her first day at No. 10, she actually ordered the officials at the financial ministry to burn the files on capital controls so they would have trouble re-introducing them if she left office. However, like Reagan, she appeared to soften in her views later on and even claimed in one interview that she never endorsed Friedmanism.

Reagan certainly wasn't an ideologue though. His administration actually introduced forms of regulation designed to counter illicit money flows. The Americans would later promote this field of regulation worldwide. Although this was mainly for the purpose of the War on Drugs, it certainly shows more flexible thinking on Reagan's part.

 

[bookmark95]

IIRC, the child soldiers thing was something we were speculating they'd do, and not mentioned in the actual update.

My guess was, with the utter erosion of public welfare under Rumsfeldia, one of the victims would be public schools, where you would either get a bad education, or an insane Rumsfeldian education in history.

Many kids would end up going to CV-inspired religious schools, where children would be indoctrinated into an apocalyptic worldview. Once a civil war broke out, these schools would become virtual military camps, where children would be trained in "defending Christ", i.e. acting as Child Soldiers, or being trained to believe resistance soldiers are Satanic monsters who will kill you if given the chance.

You are joking, but people like them are the kind of people CONUS needs the most.



After the Collapse: Russia Seeks Its Place as a Great Power, Introdction, page 19-20 by Dimitri K. Simes

POTUS Jeremiah Denton turned out to be too nice.

Denton's problem wasn't that he was too nice, or that he deferred too much to the international community. Denton's problem is that he is a man with zero political experience thrust into the nation's highest office.

He certainly had enough ruthlessness to get the cabinet members to invoke the 25th Amendment. But he didn't have the experience to detect the rats in his own party. We don't even know yet about how he was tossed from power.

I disagree that Agnew is the kind of person who can fight a war. One of the reasons for the turmoil in this TL is Agnew's reckless handling of the Vietnam War. While Agnew may be wiser after gaining some more political and executive experience, in Rummyhorror, Drew wrote he was still trying to subvert Nixon's authority. There's being tough, and there's being a opportunistic asshole. The latter can cause as much problems as the people who are pushovers.

 

[Knightmare]

I wonder how Mrs. Thatcher is doing at this time.

IIRC, last I heard, she was a TV personality.

 

[Gonzo]

IIRC, last I heard, she was a TV personality.

National Front? Really...?

 

[Knightmare]

National Front? Really...?

Turns out after her shit performance in Ireland, and seemingly throwing a bomb at a Indian man's family car, then having him imprisoned afterwards does not do your image wonders.