Reconstruction succeeds

HOW ABOUT CREATING BLACK-DOMINATED US STATES TO ENSURE BLACK REPS IN GOVERNMENT ?
3vyrpsy298u11.png

reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/imaginarymaps/comments/9r5fp1/map_of_the_southern_united_states_following/
Creating black-dominated American states such as the one around the lower River Mississippi and other regions would allow for the creation of Republican Party-dominated black-predominant American states in the South. This would, of course, protect and ensure the existence of black representatives in the American South by having the new state electorates be predominantly black. Is this feasible in a radical reconstruction scenario ?

White southerners have their own states whilst black southerners can be representated by their own, ensuring black Congress people to be better represented in government. It could establish a near-permanent existence of twelve black US senators as early as the 1870s from these black-dominated states.
 
Last edited:
We have very different ideas of what "successful Reconstruction" looks like I guess. You seem to be equating it to the naive hopes expressed in the late 1960s and early '70s in the USA, that all we had to do was have some Civil Rights laws making it illegal to block voting, to outlaw interracial marriage and so forth, and whammo, all the racial tension in the USA just vanishes away like the morning mist! Which would imply, as you assume, that all the various class strata of the USA suddenly have as many black faces and white ones at every level--that poverty and wealth and presence on high judicial benches and owning large percentages of national capital and all that are suddenly uniform, that American class society is instantly truly color blind and that the effects of hundreds of years of differential treatment vanish away overnight too.

I on the other hand assume that insofar as the freedmen get any economic breaks, they will be limited. "Forty Acres and a Mule" was a great fortune versus what African-American freedmen generally had, and had that been implemented might have made a tremendous difference in outcomes, but it was still pennies and peanuts compared to what normal white farmers might start with, and a drop in the bucket compared to reparations soberly computed as proper back wages unpaid over generations! African Americans ought to have at least their share of population of the net wealth of the USA, but have far less than that--some are quite rich, but more proportionally are poor than whites.

What this means is that to me, successful Reconstruction means establishing the Africans into a position where they can defend what they have, and this must mean that they have some success with winning over some white people as allies at least some of the time. And this means they and the white people are more or less socialistically inclined, at least more populist social democratic than OTL norms for either "race" in the South. They make up for lack of capital by stronger control of the state as insurer and backer of middle class ambition and guarantor of poor class survival.

I think, without having to agree there is any path to my notion of what successful Reconstruction would mean in reality, that it does not require a quantum tunneling to create well off black families accepted as social equals well enough to hobnob with the highest social and financial circles in the USA overnight, which is exactly what you are saying Reconstruction done well would mean. Indeed your concept has the strength that it would mean success in replicating the structure in the north in the south as well--but then you say you don't expect it to do that in that the South, black and white together, remains more polarized between rich and poor and overall poorer too. Which puts considerable strain on the hopes of freed people, hoping to attain a parity of mutual respect at least with poor whites, to share poverty and misery and political impotence together...this strain would make it easier for the Redeemer types to persuade the poor whites to throw the poor blacks under the Jim Crow bus just as OTL!

So actually I think you are taking a self contradictory position there. Either the Southern society is remade pretty much into the mirror image of Northern, with similar distribution of wealth, and we get an OTL modern times sort of racial sensibility--which by the way by no means seems to have achieved actual equality to me! Better than Jim Crow but still not equal and dangerously problematic! Then my argument about the Solid South not being a continual bastion of eternal conservatism throughout the cycles shaking the north would come into play--when Northerners veer populist and progressive, so should the South.

Or if, due to your position that southern poor whites and freedmen would not have better leverage than OTL because they would not be organized around class solidarity precisely because they are collectively poor, as I argue, then Reconstruction should simply fail due to high tension being placed on the poor white classes which they can dodge and twist to by demonizing the poor blacks as OTL.

So since there is no way anyway to tunnel from a situation where essentially all but a handful of African Americans are destitute and lacking in any social advantages within mainstream white society to a situation where the same proportion of African-Americans occupy all the class strata as whites do within a single generation, and there is excellent reason to doubt that model of equality will ever be achieved at all, I think of success of Reconstruction as creating a new kind of class balance of power where a union of the poorer folks offsets the power of capital somewhat. And that's why I think conservative reaction is a bit on a back foot in such a TL, and that they would reasonably anticipate that outcome probably has to do with why Reconstruction was abandoned in the first place OTL!
 
... Is this feasible in a radical reconstruction scenario ?​

White southerners have their own states whilst black southerners can be representated by their own, ensuring black Congress people to be better represented in government. It could establish a near-permanent existence of twelve black US senators as early as the 1870s from these black-dominated states.

Yes and no. I like this to be sure! I am assuming these boundaries are drawn so as to require very little migration by African Americans; those in the majority white states might have to move perhaps, but part of the effect of securing six AA majority states is to give AA people a fighting chance to achieve comparable respectability, and as this happens the remaining AA people in the white-majority states would tend to be more respected, and indeed if they vote with their feet to escape oppression (and here would have relatively short distances to asylum) the whites will come to miss their services and will negotiate with those who have not fled yet to entice them to stay.

Meanwhile I'm pretty sure that in the majority AA states, whites will not suffer a lot of turning the tables oppression. They will scream to high heaven if that happens, and probably will lie and pretend to be oppressed when they actually have it pretty good. But over time some will come around, others will flee.

I'd have some worry that various systematic, organized measures would be taken by racists after the Republican champions wander off to other preoccupations. For instance, it might be possible for organized, deliberate migration to invade the black states, one by one, swamp out the genuine local vote, install Jim Crow measures to disfranchise the majority, then the populations that pretended to settle can move on to similarly enchain a second state, and then a third, and so on. No US state can control who settles in it from another state! Such a scheme would of course require massive organization and funding, but that just might be forthcoming after all.

But yes, this would be better than OTL.

Unfortunately it would not pass muster against conservative opposition I fear. It is logical but I am not sure how you sell it politically, practically speaking.
 

Politically speaking, it can sold to the Republican-dominated Congress as a plot to secure twelve black Republican Party loyal Senators and other black Republican party house of representatives in the formally solid Democratic American south. Instead of the solid 26-0 Senatorial Solid Democratic South, the Republican Party can obtain a loyal batch of twelve senators, splitting the US South between white Democratic states and black Republican states. All of the potential to achieve a Republican dominated Congress for generations to come can be established through this. It would certainly be used as part of a political tactic to expand the Republican majority deep in the US south and destroy the solid Democratic vote by creating black-dominated states.

The prospects for the Republican Party to stay in power for a long time (possibly well into the early twentieth century) could be used as a political tactic to create black-dominated states since it would give an additional twelve black Republican Party Senators from the US South (since I highly doubt the recently emancipated black Southerners would ever vote or support the Democratic Party in the mid to late nineteenth century)
 
Last edited:
Sure, the partisan advantage is clear...the question is, did the Republicans really have the power to rearrange the map of the South wholesale like that? Would they dare to, when perhaps in the future a Democratic ascendency, or some other new party, might perhaps stretch it to rejigger the North the same way?

I like it a lot better than gerrymandering the South! In a way, that is exactly what this is, but it is honest and straight up about it, and the leverage of African American votes is sensibly limited to just getting half the South. The Republicans do better than that actually; while there are seven "white" Southern states to only six black ones, some of those are states where Republicans stand a decent chance of winning open elections--notably Kentucky and New Virginia--I say, New Virginia would be better named still West Virginia, since that name is not inaccurate geographically and it fits the American custom of cardinal direction divisions. Carolina too might sometimes vote Republican as might even Texas. I wasn't even counting Missouri, Delaware or Maryland as actually Southern anyway, though they certainly have a strong Southern flavor to them. (Texas I do count as Southern--Dixie's West). So actually it is better than 12 versus 14, the Republicans have a chance at the 14 as well.

Anyway while hard core white supremacists will never want to tolerate the six black majority states, and there is some danger that aside from harebrained schemes along the lines of Bleeding Kansas to plot to coopt them that honest demographic changes will shift some of them to white majority states, I suppose that six states can lose a few and still preserve a decent percentage of African Americans in high places in the USA?

And maybe just perhaps, demographic shifts might create white majority states where the very large African American minority is not disfranchised and instead of being a token black state some of these formerly African majority states lead the way in bi-racial society?
 
Sure, the partisan advantage is clear...the question is, did the Republicans really have the power to rearrange the map of the South wholesale like that? Would they dare to, when perhaps in the future a Democratic ascendency, or some other new party, might perhaps stretch it to rejigger the North the same way?

I like it a lot better than gerrymandering the South! In a way, that is exactly what this is, but it is honest and straight up about it, and the leverage of African American votes is sensibly limited to just getting half the South. The Republicans do better than that actually; while there are seven "white" Southern states to only six black ones, some of those are states where Republicans stand a decent chance of winning open elections--notably Kentucky and New Virginia--I say, New Virginia would be better named still West Virginia, since that name is not inaccurate geographically and it fits the American custom of cardinal direction divisions. Carolina too might sometimes vote Republican as might even Texas. I wasn't even counting Missouri, Delaware or Maryland as actually Southern anyway, though they certainly have a strong Southern flavor to them. (Texas I do count as Southern--Dixie's West). So actually it is better than 12 versus 14, the Republicans have a chance at the 14 as well.

Anyway while hard core white supremacists will never want to tolerate the six black majority states, and there is some danger that aside from harebrained schemes along the lines of Bleeding Kansas to plot to coopt them that honest demographic changes will shift some of them to white majority states, I suppose that six states can lose a few and still preserve a decent percentage of African Americans in high places in the USA?

And maybe just perhaps, demographic shifts might create white majority states where the very large African American minority is not disfranchised and instead of being a token black state some of these formerly African majority states lead the way in bi-racial society?

Possibly. As the maker of the map stated in his or her Reddit post, the Republicans would very much retain the presidency well into the early twentieth century (and by then, shifts in ideology such as the rise of socialism, labour politics, and the backlash of the Gilded Age could shift politics of the parties by then). In any case, perhaps a more radicalised Republican Party might do the trick to push for, say, an amendmend to change the state borders whilst much of the US south was under military occupation in 1866-70s (thus ensuring very little objections from the remaining American states not under military occupation).

The mapmaker also hinted that it may actually cause the creation of the American Labour Party of some sort as well along with the possible viability of an African American Vice President by the early twentieth century and even a black president in the middle of the twentieth century. I don't know if what the mapmaker on Reddit stated are feasible but you can check it all out on his or her posts on the Reddit link I gave to you lot.
 
Politically speaking, it can sold to the Republican-dominated Congress as a plot to secure twelve black Republican Party loyal Senators and other black Republican party house of representatives in the formally solid Democratic American south. Instead of the solid 26-0 Senatorial Solid Democratic South, the Republican Party can obtain a loyal batch of twelve senators, splitting the US South between white Democratic states and black Republican states. All of the potential to achieve a Republican dominated Congress for generations to come can be established through this. It would certainly be used as part of a political tactic to expand the Republican majority deep in the US south and destroy the solid Democratic vote by creating black-dominated states.

The prospects for the Republican Party to stay in power for a long time (possibly well into the early twentieth century) could be used as a political tactic to create black-dominated states since it would give an additional twelve black Republican Party Senators from the US South (since I highly doubt the recently emancipated black Southerners would ever vote or support the Democratic Party in the mid to late nineteenth century)


This would of course require an Amendment, as Congress cannot alter the boundaries of a State w/o its consent. Given that far less controversial ones like the 14th and 15th Amensments on;y passed the Senate with three or four votes to spare, what would be the chances of this getting through?
 
This would of course require an Amendment, as Congress cannot alter the boundaries of a State w/o its consent. Given that far less controversial ones like the 14th and 15th Amensments on;y passed the Senate with three or four votes to spare, what would be the chances of this getting through?

A more radicalised northern reaction to the Confederate Uprising ? A more radicalised war such as this amazing timeline here could produce the political mindset and consensus for the unoccupied northern states to pass an amendment to rearrange the boundaries of the US southeast for the benefit of not just black Americans but also for the Republican Party for generations to come (at least until the early twentieth century).
 
A more radicalised northern reaction to the Confederate Uprising ? A more radicalised war such as this amazing timeline here could produce the political mindset and consensus for the unoccupied northern states to pass an amendment to rearrange the boundaries of the US southeast for the benefit of not just black Americans but also for the Republican Party for generations to come (at least until the early twentieth century).


How big would the Black majorities have to be?

There must have been quite a few heavily Black Congressional districts, yet in 1878 only three Republicans were returned from the entire "Confederacy". And MS was majority-Black yet that hadn't stopped it getting redeemed in 1876.
 
I think military commanders, similar to MacArthur in Japan, have to be there to do the rebuilding. And you have to stay both firm and loosey-goosey about goals and tactics, and that's going to be a balancing act.

For example, resentment between poor whites and blacks may end up being either a bigger or smaller problem than we anticipate. And we adjust accordingly.

It would seem that, at least part of how the resettlement proceded would depend upon the personal bias of those commanders.
 
How big would the Black majorities have to be?

There must have been quite a few heavily Black Congressional districts, yet in 1878 only three Republicans were returned from the entire "Confederacy". And MS was majority-Black yet that hadn't stopped it getting redeemed in 1876.
What we need here is someone who has closely studied the details of the Reconstruction era. South Carolina's AA majority had an even larger edge over "white" population than Mississippi's I believe, and included some people who played a rather feisty role during the OTL war, above and beyond the usual degree that African Americans took the opportunity to assist the Union cause even long before the Emancipation Proclamation. Alas they were suppressed along with everyone else.

I have never noticed the TL linked by @Divergent54 above, "Until Every Drop of Blood is Paid"; it may or may not offer such insights. Perhaps I will find a lot of thinking paralleling mine in that TL, or maybe some big surprises that shine a completely new light on the matter.

Anyway such need for deep thought applies to any strategy to guarantee the effective free status of the freed people.

I do think the reorganization of states does suffer from Constitutional restrictions, but perhaps it would be no more difficult to get this done than it was to get the states to ratify the Reconstruction Amendments of OTL. There certainly was never an amendment to ratify West Virginia's secession from Virginia after all!

If I read Wikipedia's history of WV correctly, in essence the trans-Allegheny Virginians, who had desired to separate from the lowland-dominated state government for a long time before the Civil War, argued that the state of Virginia's own constitution required popular approval of reorganizing forms of state government, which they interpreted (reasonably of course!) to include membership in the Union.

Since Virginia's secession was a legislative act unratified by a popular plebiscite, they held their own "state convention" that initially purported to be statewide for the whole state of Virginia--now regarded by them, as by Abraham Lincoln later, as a US state still but under the control of a criminal gang essentially, which could of course excuse the lack of generally recognized representatives from the eastern portion of the state, that being the terrain under "criminal" control!

So basically the "Restored Government of Virginia" was in fact a sock puppet of a bunch of regionalists long desiring secession from the state; it was never able during the course of the Civil War to hold regular elections and never did establish a judicial branch. None of this stopped Lincoln and Congress from recognizing it as the legitimate state government of Virginia, and this government which existed as the mutually agreed to tool of the western state-secessionists and the wartime Federal government is the entity that "agreed" to let the NW Virginian counties go.

I hope nothing I wrote above comes across as sneering, the Internet being infamous for misreading tones. I find the process entirely reasonable and admirable, honestly; it was indeed the nation-level-secessionists based in the eastern Tidewater that normally dominated the old state of Virginia (and not in a very reasonable fashion; the Trans-Alleghenian Virginians had cause to grumble!) who stuck their own heads in the noose and gave the westerners this golden opportunity to accomplish something that otherwise the (old) state would predictably have refused to ratify.

It may seem also I am arguing that generally speaking states cannot be broken up or altered in practice, but actually I am trying to winnow out how it can be practically done. Two states bordering each other cannot even change their mutual border with each other without Congressional approval. In the Reconstruction era, though, getting Congressional approval would be quite the easy part! (Assuming Northern Republicans liked the plan of rearranging the Southern states that is!)

The tricky bit would be arranging for state governments in the old states that would in effect sign their corporate death warrants to hand over power to the new entities. But if one could rig that, Congress is involved but not amending the Constitution! Again--when I say "rig" I am not sneering, I would sneer and have sneered at things like fraudulent national Presidential votes, but again given the treason of the secessionists and the rotten purposes they had in seceding, I think actions that bypass their participation in figuring out how to settle the region long term are quite morally justified--clearly devising a solution that at least over time induces a portion of these people to buy into it is prudent, since the emergency in which the window is open for such drastic actions is temporary and the whole point of this thread is, how to make temporary solutions permanent.

The trouble is, Abraham Lincoln stood by his contention that the "secession" was actually no such thing but rather a criminal conspiracy and the people who stood for the secessionist state governments and Confederacy were actually just gangsters in effect; this means as a general thing it would be hard to justify fooling around with state boundaries during the emergency. Per Lincoln, the states generally existed continuously with their pre-secession status, but their legitimate governments were usurped by criminal pretenders and thus in effect suspended--still, the various states existed, just under violent duress.

If instead the Confederacy were regarded as a hostile foreign power the Union forces had conquered, the question of state boundaries would be a matter of convenience. In truth, I was always taught, perhaps not entirely accurately, that the Radical Republicans did seek to regard the South as conquered enemy territory, at least back in high school; I am not sure now I should trust anything I was taught on the subject from the kinds of textbooks that tend to be adopted in the USA! I've never formally studied the Civil War in a college level class so I want to be careful. But I do believe Lincoln was against such radicalism generally, though obviously the West Virgina case is an example of his being quite willing to roll with it when the severe polarization of a state related to stuff that was perennial before the slavery and secession crisis brewed up.

Now we might imagine a different Union president--note that one aspect of Lincoln's metaphysical position against the view that the secession was a thing that could be said legally to have happened at all was that he could insist Britain and other possible meddling nations must not recognize the "Confederacy" as a nation capable of making war against the USA or having any legitimate claims on US territory--I guess that British interests favoring pro-Confederate intervention to some degree or other made much hay from the example of West Virginia, which Lincoln or his ambassadors had to parry by describing the Restored Government of Virginia as the proper state government. A state government belatedly acting on a long-standing call for splitting the state had some plausibility to it; reshuffling all the states in the south leaving none untouched would involve stretching rationalization far beyond the breaking point.

It is controversial on this board just how badly a pro-Confederate Britain or France would threaten Union victory; I tend to believe likely levels of pro-Confederate foreign leaning would be a limited side show, unable to, or anyway highly unlikely to, change the overall course of the war. This is largely because I assume that despite some moments of tension and high choler, Britain at any rate would not go so far as to formally declare war on the USA, because despite the thrill of turning tables on the presumptuous Yankees and the possible strategic and economic advantages of promoting a rival power on our continent to check the Union, British subjects also had a lot invested in the USA, and in Britain assisting a power explicitly devoted to sustaining slavery would be very much frowned on--even in large sectors of those who had the political franchise, and more overwhelmingly condemned by disfranchised sectors who lacked formal political power or legal standing to object, but did pose a serious potential for violent insurrection should the government appear to be excessively reactionary. One can, and two major TLs here have, argue for an Anglo-Union war, but even the proponents tend to admit it is pretty far fetched.

This does not mean a different policy than Lincoln's, declaring the seceded territories in general to be foreign power at war with the USA and thus regarding regained territory as conquests, would be without some serious political and diplomatic drawbacks; the British could do a lot more to aid the Confederacy while maintaining some plausible deniability; France might (under cover of a basically if quietly pro-Confederate British policy, not if Britain were very opposed to it) declare war on the Union openly. But I think the Union could handle such challenges, certainly if Britain holds short of crossing the brink into declared war.

Conducting the war with an early declared and consistent policy of regarding the Confederacy as a hostile nation would also pose liabilities in the internal American politics of persuading Southerners and Border State residents to support the Union cause--but I think this could be finessed to a great degree, especially if the ATL Republican President were to point to things like the divorce of West Virginia from the larger state. In fact with the Civil War waged under a "reconquest" theory instead of "putting down criminal insurrection" theory, conceivably the interest of those Southern factions most inclined to help the Union forces would provide much of the impetus of the redrawn map proposed! Instead of viewing that map as focused on creating African American states primarily, we could approach it from the point of view of "white" mountaineers like the West Virginians, concerned first to get their own new reorganized state free of the domination of plantation class people deriving great power and influence from slave ownership; such interests would tend to wish to get rid of the territory slavers profited most from, which of course is where most of the African-Americans lived and could electorally dominate. Thus the AA majority states are formed from the void spaces left over when the mountain people claim the terrain they want! The logic of these black-majority states forming relates to selective suspension of political rights of leaders of secession, whose power base again was in the black-majority regions.

Essentially, if the USA conquers territory it intends to annex, or otherwise acquires it, barring specific treaty provisions in the latter cases the land is acquired as territory which is under Federal administration, and a process is provided (by Congressional legislation) for admitting new states formed from the territory. Instead of a state government purporting to represent all of the State of Virginia voluntarily waiving the claim on the NW counties and wishing the new state bon voyage, the alternate interpretation could hold that upon treasonous declaration of secession, each secessionist state committed legal suicide and the rights once granted the states revert to the people, and the Wheeling Conventions in western former Virginia were actually the organic foundation of a completely new state having no legal connection to the old state of Virginia whatsoever, and quickly recognize the new West Virginia as the first of many new states to be formed out of the territory of the secessionist and hence now void former states claiming to be in a Confederacy which exists but not legitimately and that the Union intends to crush. The whole territory of the south (in secession, states held back from the brink of secession would retain their Constitutional integrity) could be regarded as one homogeneous mass of US Territories instead of a collection of states with governments in disarray.

This would place the state structure of the reconquered secessionist former states in the hands of Congress, as creator of the laws administering the territories and their process toward statehood.

I hold that the USA was never in fact a confederation of actually sovereign republics, that the various states of the USA were in fact organically part of a larger union from the beginning--and have been astonished to discover evidence of this (in reality, though obviously not properly recognized as such at the time) in the Articles of Confederation, which include an obligation on every state to accept immigrants from another state as citizens after they have settled there. Ability to control immigration is a key hallmark of true comprehensive sovereignty.

I do not believe Lincoln then so much created a new vision of the Union as he brought to light its essential nature that it had, not properly understood, all along. (After all, under the British crown before the Revolution, all British colonies were part of a larger union, the British system, and prior to the Revolution any subject in one colony could move to another; this is how the colony of Maryland, set up to be a refuge for English Catholics, came to be controlled by a Protestant majority).

Nevertheless, though I hold it to be a pernicious illusion, it was widely understood (if wrongly) that the USA was composed of sovereign states, and so I think for the more central-nationalist unitary view suggested above to have been widely and openly declared during the Civil War, it would probably have to be a somewhat later Civil War, say in the 1870s or even '80s. This in turn leads me to think that the POD would be long before 1860, setting up a different political and perhaps electoral set of rules kicking the can of that crisis down the road a couple more decades.

I actually think that while I am caviling a bit at some of Lincoln's choices, on the whole we were lottery lucky in getting such a competent and visionary person elected President and an ATL where Lincoln is not elected in 1860 is likely to be quite grimmer in several ways. However, it could be that such a delay might be just the thing to accomplish a more properly sweeping Reconstruction that settles matters that OTL to this day are not well settled even yet!
 
I do think the reorganization of states does suffer from Constitutional restrictions, but perhaps it would be no more difficult to get this done than it was to get the states to ratify the Reconstruction Amendments of OTL. There certainly was never an amendment to ratify West Virginia's secession from Virginia after all!


But that was only possible because the greater part of VA was unrepresented in the Unionist legislature at Wheeling.

With the war over, any legislature would presumably be elected by the whole State, and how keen would even a "Black and Tan" legislature have been? After all, if you create a majority-black state, you are in the nature of things also creating a majority-white one next door to it - thus giving KKK raiders a refuge to duck into after doing their business. And, as previously noted, even substantial black majorities in MS and SC did not prevent "redemption" there, once the North got fed up with continually having to send in the troops.
 
But that was only possible because the greater part of VA was unrepresented in the Unionist legislature at Wheeling.

With the war over, any legislature would presumably be elected by the whole State, and how keen would even a "Black and Tan" legislature have been? After all, if you create a majority-black state, you are in the nature of things also creating a majority-white one next door to it - thus giving KKK raiders a refuge to duck into after doing their business. And, as previously noted, even substantial black majorities in MS and SC did not prevent "redemption" there, once the North got fed up with continually having to send in the troops.

The example of Virginia and West Virginia demonstrates what the Union can get away with during the Civil War.

Indeed if they wait until the war is over, there would be little choice but to allow the entire pre-secession enfranchised white male population of each state to vote, minus perhaps persons with such rights suspended due to participation in the secession or Confederate state at a high level--it would hardly be practical to disenfranchise every Confederate or Confederate-siding state militia soldier. Even if civil suspension of rights went as low as every commissioned officer though the electorate, even adding in every freedman, would probably be essentially the prewar voters plus the freedmen--it could be that in some of these states universal manhood suffrage would change it a lot, but is there any guarantee adding in poor white men previously left out would tip the balance? Even with all the freed African Americans pretty certain to vote Republican and certainly support these state scrambling schemes?

But...during the war, opportunity beckons. Tell me, do you regard what Lincoln did with separating West Virginia from Virginia as legitimate or not?

I do.

He, and the western Virginians, were playing fast and loose with normal due process of course. But the reason they could do that was because the champions of causes these western Virginians opposed chose to opt out of US due process, to take their marbles and go home now that they were in danger of starting to lose a game they had been winning. That's the smart time to leave a poker game or a craps table, but the USA was not supposed to be a gambler's den, it was supposed to be a covenant to accomplish the purposes laid out in the Preamble to the Constitution. In particular the secessionists objected to the idea they might be asked to follow through on the last clause, "...secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

So to be pedantic about it, the western Virginians technically should have had no right to unilaterally secede from the state of Virginia without the consent of the rest of Virginia. But the secessionists of Virginia, who pretty well overlapped the class of people who had hitherto dominated all Virginia as a ruling minority elite, were responsible for the Wheeling Convention being unable to draw a fair share of citizen representatives from all over Virginia! It remains somewhat sophistical to suggest maybe a truly democratic Virginia representation might have granted the separation of WV freely; you know and I know and they knew they probably would not. But it is I think fair to say that these pro-mountain zone separation and pro-Union elements in Virginia, and their Union-Republican allies in the Federal Government, had nevertheless a legitimate opportunity to cut through the red tape and deadwood of an established Constitutional order, the silver lining to the dark cloud of secession and civil war. It was the Confederates who muddied the waters of what was and was not proper due process, and created both impediment of regular due process and an emergency urgency justifying taking action. Lincoln once responded to the suggestion he should be confident God was on his side by remarking he just hoped he was on God's side. I think God's side in this was clear!

So--the opportunity was a general thing. Part of what justified Lincoln and the Republican dominated Congress was that separation from Virginia was what the western Virginians had wanted for a long time. But more fundamentally, Lincoln understood that no form of government was an independent entity existing on its own; all were instituted by human beings to serve their more or less legitimate purposes of combined action in pursuit of both general welfare and general rights. In privileging the Union, the Federal power, over states he dissented (perhaps; everything he did in that direction could be both explained and justified as wartime expedient) with the people who obsess over the notion the states are primary. But fundamentally, all government at both levels exist to provide as he so economically and resoundingly put it, government "of the people, by the people, for the people." We can agonize over whether our devised Constitutional structure would allow us to readjust the state boundaries today or not. But at the level of the fundamentals, the states exist to serve the people who live in them. The Abolitionists included in that number the people of color a pro-slavery SCOTUS ruling had just said should not count, of course. The Unionists had long term concerns about viability. The secessionists had shot the moral foundations of their own pretensions to rule completely out from under themselves.

Therefore if the Union forces were able to seize small, token bits of a state in secession--that is, per Lincoln, with its normal state government machinery usurped and rendered useless for normal due process thanks to a criminal conspiracy in plain violation of the interests of "of the people, for the people, by the people," it would be a reasonable option to foster a convention of the people in the liberated zone, and ask them to solemnly consider forming new states with new boundaries. The fact that the slaver interest would not be "fairly" represented would be entirely down to the slavers having overreached and arrogated control of the whole bag of marbles all to themselves. Agreements to create separate mostly white versus African American states in this rearrangement would probably get the vote of African Americans recently liberated! As for the "white" people, I think separating out the slaver interest for the most part, non-slave-owning whites would agree they are better off in a separate state.

To address the other issues you bring, namely "what is to stop the Redeemers from triumphing as they did in South Carolina or Mississippi OTL anyway?"

South Carolina is indeed a chilling example! But I will suggest it makes a difference whether the Union accepted and encouraged the mobilization of the African American subject classes as a people in their general war tactics or not; if the rising slaves were a part of the Union assault on Confederate/secessionist institutions, they are in a stronger position after the war. Meanwhile, in the OTL situation without redrawing the boundaries, many conditional supporters of freedman's rights and interests had qualms about these ever overriding or inconveniencing "white" people. But if Union armies advancing with the aid of rebelling slaves are carrying out in part the enforcement of new African-majority state governments formed from the smaller earlier liberated zones, they can stop expanding the freedman states when they reach the boundaries beyond which it would start becoming a white majority state. Whites "trapped" within those boundaries are actually free to go, to migrate beyond the border to complementary white-majority states. So--the freedman state governments would have a much freer hand to exercise state powers forthrightly in the interest of the majority.

One interest generally shared by both dominant majorities and most people in some opposition to that majority is Law And Order. The Redeemers were able to terrorize and repress African Americans because of a faithless state government regime that turned a selective blind eye to gross violations of public peace, conniving by inaction as much as by direct action in repressing a significant part of the people they were supposed, to be legitimate in Lincoln's distillation of the definition of a democratic republic, "of, by, and for."

If most African Americans now live in black-majority states (and just as disgruntled whites may leave these states, so too at least of those blacks trapped in the white majority states can also migrate to the nearest AA majority states, their state and local governments now exist of, by, and for them. It was a common cry against Reconstruction and especially in the Orwellian whitewashing of the Redeemers and their purposes and accomplishments in later generations that freed slaves given such power would abuse it grossly, to turn the tables on whites and treat them as unjustly as the whites had hitherto treated the blacks. But claims that such things actually happened on any large scale were quite mendacious. The situation is not totally symmetric! Indeed if in say 1867 the occupying Union forces and the entire North were to vanish from the Earth there would be some temptation in the new white majority states to conquer and partition the black-majority states, and relative poverty in the latter would mean they might be ill able to resist an all out drive for conquest. But even then, it would hardly be a slam dunk! Giving most African American people defensible borders they control the defenses of allows them to collectivize and concentrate their best efforts, and I think given simple freedom and a handful of months to enjoy it, and freedom to acquire weapons and organization of their own, they could have made a good account of themselves.

But even with minimal commitment to civil rights or the interest of African Americans, as long as the various states are in the Union, all out wars of conquest of one by another are not an option. Accordingly you spoke of the same tactics used by white supremacists OTL.

I hope it is pretty plain by now why that would not work the way it did in the old state boundaries OTL. As a general rule, African American populations could not rely on the formal state structure to even-handedly defend their interests the way these same authorities would protect white populations from the same sorts of violation. Even if they could say elect a sheriff or three, these men would be vulnerable to selective targeting by the white supremacists; the prosecution of their murders would be in the hands of a white-run police and court system that could, if sufficiently corrupted, give aid and comfort to the culprits.

If however we have states where freedmen dominate electorally, then we can be sure those states can and will use state powers to fully protect to the extent of their ability African American populations and individuals from the depredations of such terrorists. Murdering one black sheriff will just result in all his deputies, including the one promoted to acting sheriff, and the entire state police apparatus, in a manhunt for the murderers, and if caught they are going to jail, and going to face a fair trial with a largely black jury and probably a black judge. As noted, former slaves might or might not wish to turn the tables and indulge in gross discrimination against whites, but first of all I think few of them would really want to, and regardless of their possible vengeful or petty desires, they know they are on a national scale a not yet much respected minority, and while they might not be able to count on Northern Republicans to come running to their aid every time they get a little hurt, if they are respected at least a little the north will at least support their own state due process...but if they lose that respect and are plainly indulging in black-supremacist outrages, they will be left at the mercy of their white majority state neighbors, indeed Federal enforcement may assist the white supremacists. They have something to prove, and so I think we can trust that at the hands of black police, black juries and black judges, whites who have a decent reasonable doubt defense will get due protection; in cases where racial conflict is not at issue, these will be fair, as fair as any due process can be.

The difference between OTL and the redrawn state boundaries situation is then that OTL, the white-majority state governments refused their proper duty in fairly and equally protecting the rights and interests of their African American citizens. With this remedied for African Americans, and those states properly and fairly also upholding the rights and interests of white citizens who remain there as well, white-majority state governments will stand out as of dubious legitimacy if they collectively foster terrorist acts across state lines.

You suggest it makes no difference if the Redeemer bases of support are across a state line, but it does. It even does legally and formally; if agents from one state are constantly crossing state lines to attack people in another state, this becomes a Federal matter! In the era Congress and Presidency are Republican controlled; if raiders from say West Florida are attacking people in Tombigbee, first of the the Tombigbee state government is within its rights to call out the militia, the National Guard in modern terms, and defend its state borders by intercepting and inspecting people who cross it. And if the state is deeply embroiled in an ongoing assault, the President and Congress have every right, indeed the duty, to investigate and take action. Tombigbee cannot on its own authority march on Pensacola and put a plainly criminal state governor of this white-majority state under arrest, but the President can authorize that same Tombigbee State Militia as an agency of the Federal forces, and instead or meanwhile to assist, order Marines from the Pensacola Naval Station to crack down. It won't come to that though because the politicians in the white majority capitals are generally not going to be stupid enough to put themselves into plainly liable positions, they are going to have to use plausible deniability, and that limits the options of Redeemer gangs on the borders.

Besides--if most blacks are living in a black majority state, and the few who remain in white majority states are free to leave and move to another state where they will definitely be safe and respected, what are the options of white supremacists, assuming they cannot simply conquer and rule the black-majority states wholesale? Are they motivated by revulsion against black people, or do they only want to force these black people to remain subservient to them? In the latter case, the remaining black population in the white states have some bargaining power! If the whites don't want them to leave, they need to start giving them some human consideration, some reason to stay. The ones who stay will have found their own reasons; attachment to the place one has grown up in, or even been settled in some years, is a strong human motive (often underestimated by bigots of various kinds) after all.

To be sure--if black folk are accused, tried and found guilty (never mind how honest these courts are!) of some felony, they can legitimately be compelled to work against their will and are not free to go.

But by and large, why should large numbers of whites support fanatical white supremacists of various kinds, if they now either reside in states with few black people to trouble them (or serve them) or as white minorities in a black state, enjoy the protection of living in a nation that is overall white-majority that would take serious issue with these scattered or enclaved whites being mistreated? Either way whites have little to fear. They are frustrated by being unable to subjugate their former slave class again for profit and glory, but that then is really the question--does adopting this scheme of states reorganized effectively check the power of Southern white majorities to subjugate the black people? I think it clearly does.

So--subjugation without a strong and plain just cause is not an option; claiming a just cause on the grounds of black outrages against whites is far fetched when whites have such overwhelming power over the handful of black folk in their majority states, while in the black majority states the black majorities know darn well they cannot allow unjust discrimination against their white minorities.

Over time then, the antebellum caste system in which slaves were deeply integrated into the private lives of powerful white people and communities were demographically mixed will give way to a far less mixed system in which blacks and whites might rarely see each other at all. I don't think that this is optimal, but I do think it gives the African American state residents a fair shot at competing on nearly equal terms that over time become more and more plainly equal. Over time, white supremacy as an ideology and passion will weaken and wither, and voluntary and mutually agreeable mixing of white and black populations will become more common.

I suspect that if separate reorganized states are feasible to create and can overcome the problems you note, it probably would also be possible to use the prewar state boundaries too and structure shared power within states so as to secure the freed people population. In other words, I don't suppose just creating a racial "Grand Apartheid" solution (not that that is a just name really--Apartheid by definition had a highly unjust thumb on the scales to appropriate the majority of resources for a highly privileged minority and use the reciprocal overcrowding and deprivation of the majority to strong-arm them into useful subservience without accountability of any kind; the partition of the South between black and white would be much fairer and I do think the African Americans could do very well with the six state territories the map offered suggests) is a silver bullet that will absolutely guarantee success (it had better though, considering how drastic a solution it is!) nor would I think it would be absolutely necessary to do this either.

However I do think that if it had been done, successful Reconstruction would be more feasible.

As I originally said I think it is unfortunate to rely on separation of "races"-but of course it would not be absolute.

If the Union waits until the South has surrendered wholesale, then your point about whole states voting with essentially all of their antebellum white electorate, and each one committed to retaining old state boundaries (and not incidentally, their ability to extract the benefits of African American labor at low cost and with no accountability to these populations with them!) is strong.

This is why I suggest it is best done during the war, taking the Virginia case as a useful first example.

Note that these shenanigans are possible only in states in secession. The states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri have a Sword of Damocles placed not over their heads but pretty head-adjacent! As long as they play nice and do not secede and participate in the Union efforts, their territorial integrity is completely guaranteed. This would help offset the tendency of Lincoln telegraphing early in the Civil War that indeed the ultimate fate of all African American is to be freed/
 
If the Union waits until the South has surrendered wholesale, then your point about whole states voting with essentially all of their antebellum white electorate, and each one committed to retaining old state boundaries (and not incidentally, their ability to extract the benefits of African American labor at low cost and with no accountability to these populations with them!) is strong.

This is why I suggest it is best done during the war, taking the Virginia case as a useful first example.


But during the war the government is not even committed to giving Blacks the vote at all, let alone taking such drastic steps to protect it. Why should they bother?
 
But during the war the government is not even committed to giving Blacks the vote at all, let alone taking such drastic steps to protect it. Why should they bother?
That's where ATL comes in. Suppose Lincoln is assassinated early on, and Hannibal Hamlin steps in, good and mad and a bit more hamfisted politically than Lincoln? Suppose he decides the secessionists are going to pay, to hell with being conciliatory, and in the wake of Lincoln's death a sufficient degree of support swings behind him?

Suppose Lincoln, who was given the map that the proposed rearrangement of states was based on, envisions the probable endgame and decides that for abolition to work well the African Americans need their own states? (I understand OTL he was hoping to deport them overseas somewhere but had to give that plan up as infeasible. But West Virginia's case demonstrates how it is entirely feasible to mess around with state boundaries during the war).

The point is to achieve successful reconstruction. It does seem particularly hard to do if we suppose the POD must be after Lincoln's assassination. But suppose Lincoln had kept Hamlin as VP instead of Johnson, or picked some other symbolic Southerner, one down with the Radical plans, and again with vengefulness for Lincoln's death in the mix, the Radical Republicans rescind Lincoln's deals and regard the former secessionist states as having forfeited their existence and reverted their lands to territorial status? Or the Reconstruction regime enforces very heavy handed restrictions on anyone associated with the secession or fighting for the Confederacy, and thus stacks the decks of the existing state governments to be more amenable to territorial adjustments on the "states mutually agree with Congress approval" model? Or ram through a Congressional imposed reorganization plan under color of a special amendment empowering them to do that in the precise circumstances with the Amendment so worded that it is deemed unlikely to ever apply again? Could there even be a one-shot single use Amendment with poison pill sunset clauses that specify it applies only to this special situation and cannot be used later?

I think we should be open to many possibilities. We must think through the consequences of taking a different path than OTL.

I like Lincoln changing his mind early in the war rather than later. There was a certain virtue in his methodical exhaustion of less radical alternatives but I don't think it is crazy he could fast-forward in his imaginative vision.
 
Suppose Lincoln, who was given the map that the proposed rearrangement of states was based on, envisions the probable endgame and decides that for abolition to work well the African Americans need their own states? (I understand OTL he was hoping to deport them overseas somewhere but had to give that plan up as infeasible. But West Virginia's case demonstrates how it is entirely feasible to mess around with state boundaries during the war).


It was feasible only because VA had a Unionist Legislature which was able to give consent to the division. Iirc no other rebel state had that until about 1864. That's getting late in the day, esp with an election coming up. Is Hamlin (or any other Republican) going to risk handing the White House over to the Democrats by promoting an extremist scheme which contributes nothing to the Union war effort? Much the same objection is likely to stop them saying much about Black suffrage, at least until after the election - which leaves little time to spare for such notions.
 
Top