Question on Naval Vessels on Patrol/Convoy Escort Mission during WW2

Gasmask134

Gasmask134

I'm having trouble finding anything on this anywhere else so I'd hope I can get some clarification here.

When ships or submarines were sent on combat patrols did they have other vessels with them or did they patrol alone until a bunch of them needed to meet up? I know carriers were escorted by other ships, but I can't find anything on say destroyers or cruisers. Did these ships meet with carrier groups before fan out over a large area?

As for the second part of my question, how many ships (and what kind of ships) would be assigned to escort the average convoy?
 

Gannt the chartist

Gasmask134 said:
I'm having trouble finding anything on this anywhere else so I'd hope I can get some clarification here.

When ships or submarines were sent on combat patrols did they have other vessels with them or did they patrol alone until a bunch of them needed to meet up? I know carriers were escorted by other ships, but I can't find anything on say destroyers or cruisers. Did these ships meet with carrier groups before fan out over a large area?

As for the second part of my question, how many ships (and what kind of ships) would be assigned to escort the average convoy?
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Go to u boat.net
 

lionhead

Gasmask134 said:
I'm having trouble finding anything on this anywhere else so I'd hope I can get some clarification here.

When ships or submarines were sent on combat patrols did they have other vessels with them or did they patrol alone until a bunch of them needed to meet up? I know carriers were escorted by other ships, but I can't find anything on say destroyers or cruisers. Did these ships meet with carrier groups before fan out over a large area?

As for the second part of my question, how many ships (and what kind of ships) would be assigned to escort the average convoy?
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Well generally cruisers were part of smaller, tactical divisions. Both heavy and Light Cruisers were normally accompanied by destroyers, who would protect them from U-boats and patrol ahead if neccessary. Cruisers were also used as escorts for the bigger vessels to provide AA support.

Destroyers, again, in smaller flotilla, usually escorting convoys or hunting U-boats, sometimes all by themselves but usually in a flotilla. And of course, also destroyers were escorts for the bigger vessels for protection. Since there are no faster ships, destroyers don't have escorts.

Both types also carrier torpedos whilst most battleships and battlecruiser didn't(except for a few exceptions), as well as smoke screens and a small plane on cruisers. Thats why they need lesser escorts themselves, they are the escorts.

Submarines usually operate alone or part of a small flottilla composed soley of other submarines but quite a distanc away from eachother, hardly any communication. They are covert ships and don't work well along surface vessels.

In the mediterranean during WWII they used a lot of cruiser divisions, as the Italian navy liked to keep their battleships in port, since their existence alone was enough of a threat. It usually 3 cruisers escorted by 4 or 6 destroyers. But different navies used different numbers.
 
Gasmask134

Gasmask134

lionhead said:
Well generally cruisers were part of smaller, tactical divisions. Both heavy and Light Cruisers were normally accompanied by destroyers, who would protect them from U-boats and patrol ahead if neccessary. Cruisers were also used as escorts for the bigger vessels to provide AA support.
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So what kind of job would these smaller, tactical divisions do outside escort work? I assume it would be stuff such as patrolling coastlines, sinking shipping, searching for and destroying enemy vessels.

lionhead said:
the Italian navy liked to keep their battleships in port, since their existence alone was enough of a threat.
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I remember hearing about Italian battleships during the war, but a lot of them I read about were damaged badly or sunk in port before they could really see use. Did the Italians even get an opportunity to make use of their battleships like the Germans did with Bismark and Tirpitz?
 

sparky42

Gasmask134 said:
I remember hearing about Italian battleships during the war, but a lot of them I read about were damaged badly or sunk in port before they could really see use. Did the Italians even get an opportunity to make use of their battleships like the Germans did with Bismark and Tirpitz?
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They couldn't break out of the Med given the RN's positions, however there were naval actions between the British and Italian battleships.
 

Scientist Shan

Gasmask134 said:
I remember hearing about Italian battleships during the war, but a lot of them I read about were damaged badly or sunk in port before they could really see use. Did the Italians even get an opportunity to make use of their battleships like the Germans did with Bismark and Tirpitz?
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Some actions involving Italian battleships:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Calabria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Spartivento
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_White
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Matapan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Sirte
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Sirte
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vigorous
 

lionhead

Gasmask134 said:
So what kind of job would these smaller, tactical divisions do outside escort work? I assume it would be stuff such as patrolling coastlines, sinking shipping, searching for and destroying enemy vessels.
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Well, mostly a cruiser squadron would patrol, in search of convoys or enemy ships like other cruisers and destroyers who are searching for submarines. Since we are linking wikipedia articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Strait_of_Otranto_(1940)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Duisburg_Convoy

Also, if a destroyer squadron thats searching for submarines would encounter a cruiser flotilla then they would radio in help and if available a cruiser flotilla would be send to intercept. Same would happen if a convoy is asking for help against enemy destroyers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Tarigo_Convoy

When the bigger ones are involved though, they usually try to escape. Can't take on a battleship or aircraft carrier with just 2 or 3 cruisers. Unless those cruisers are brand new Edinburgh-class and they encounter a battleship from WWI like the Andrea Doria-class. Thats different cake.
 
Gasmask134

Gasmask134

lionhead said:
When the bigger ones are involved though, they usually try to escape. Can't take on a battleship or aircraft carrier with just 2 or 3 cruisers. Unless those cruisers are brand new Edinburgh-class and they encounter a battleship from WWI like the Andrea Doria-class. Thats different cake.
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Speaking of battleships, how many escorts would a BB have with them?
 

lionhead

Gasmask134 said:
Speaking of battleships, how many escorts would a BB have with them?
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Varies. But generally if you have 1 battleship it would be screened by 3 cruisers(heavy) and 7 or 8 destroyers. They are there for extra firepower, scouting and basic protection that destroyers can give. Thats the number you get when the fleet is fully complete though. Once ships get sunk or are in need of repairs the carrier divisions get the priority for new screens and they get chipped away from the battleship divisions(or the battleship divisions get added to the carrier division).

Also when a battleship is part of a carrier division the ships are changed and light cruisers escort because the battleship has become an escort itself, therefor AA support is more important to protect the carrier than raw firepower, thats what the battleship is for.
 
Gasmask134

Gasmask134

lionhead said:
*snip*
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ah, thank you very much, these responses have really cleared up things, I've had a growing interest in naval warfare of the 20th century for the last few years, but the only things I knew came from my brother who was more interested in aircraft and carriers than other surface ships and submarines.
 

lionhead

Gasmask134 said:
ah, thank you very much, these responses have really cleared up things, I've had a growing interest in naval warfare of the 20th century for the last few years, but the only things I knew came from my brother who was more interested in aircraft and carriers than other surface ships and submarines.
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ah, but naval aviation is beautiful and aircraft carriers are so pretty... i get him.

However, a lot of battleships beat a lot of carriers in beauty.
 
Gasmask134

Gasmask134

lionhead said:
ah, but naval aviation is beautiful and aircraft carriers are so pretty... i get him.

However, a lot of battleships beat a lot of carriers in beauty.
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It was more of an interest in world war two aviation in general, he could tell you every single difference between each model of B-17 for example.
He used to play flight simulators quite frequently, sadly he suddenly started getting motion sickness while playing them one day so he can't play them anymore.

He's since become an arborist and mostly talks about trees.

I always liked battleships like the Iowa-class BBs, but I grew up under the impression that surface ships didn't fight one another much during world war 2, though in recent years I've discovered just how wrong that impression was.
 

King Augeas

Gasmask134 said:
Speaking of battleships, how many escorts would a BB have with them?
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Whatever's available, really. From a European perspective:

The German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were unescorted when they met the British battlecruiser Renown and its nine destroyers escorts off Lofoten.
They were also unescorted when they surprised the carrier Glorious and its two destroyer escorts, sinking them all.
The German battleship Bismarck was escorted only by the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen when intercepted at Denmark Strait by the British battleship Prince of Wales and the battlecruiser Hood - which had had six destroyers also, but which had fallen behind because of heavy seas.

These are early-war examples and Germany's lack of long-range escorts meant that they often had to send heavy raiders out unaccompanied. Later in the war, Scharnhorst had detached its escort of six destroyers, and was caught and sunk by a British fleet of one battleship, one heavy cruiser, three light cruisers and nine destroyers.

In the Med, Italy had a larger fleet. So Calabria saw two Italian battleships, eight light cruisers and 16 destroyers meet, briefly, the British fleet of a carrier, three battleships, five light cruisers and 16 destroyers. Note here that the British carrier was really part of the battleships' escort, because of the limited striking power of a single old carrier with early-war planes. Later, at Second Sirte, five British cruisers and 18 destroyers held off one Italian battleship and its escort of two heavy cruisers, one light cruiser and ten destroyers.
 

lionhead

The designation was KMS.


Anyway the german battleships and battlecruisers were build specifcally in a way because they lacked the neccesary escorts. They were basically single fleets.
 
Gasmask134

Gasmask134

lionhead said:
The designation was KMS.


Anyway the german battleships and battlecruisers were build specifcally in a way because they lacked the neccesary escorts. They were basically single fleets.
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So that explains why Tirpitz was so hard to sink then, wasn't it something like 10 attempts by the British to sink it.
 
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