Q-Bam Historical Map Thread

[Wendell]

Small update on 1520 : Spain, Portugal, Morroco

Why isn't (Spanish) Navarre indicated?

 

[LSCatilina]

Well it is indicated : it's the one brown bit in southern France which have national borders to distinguish itself from Albret's demenses within the kingdom of France. Once you take this bit and remove 2/3 of it that constitue the Viscounty of Bearn, you do have whataever remains of the Kingdom of Navarre.

More seriously, I understand you're asking about Lower Navarre. I just forgot about it. I'll correct that.

 

[LSCatilina]

Spain, Morroco and some additions/corrections to France

Bar was a nightmare to map.

 

[Alex Richards]

lmao everyone avoiding the hre as much as possible

3 Territorial Branches of the House of Reuss in the Empire
3 Territorial Branches of the House of Reuss
You take each line and give them 2 sons
6 Territorial Branches of the House of Reuss in the Empire.


Good work on Morocco there LSC- are the white bits in rebellion?

 

[LSCatilina]

Not...exactly.
Wattasid Morroco was a mess of quasi-vassalic entities, including Saadians, you can see thanks to the suzerainty outline, but there's as well one of the clear exemples of "bled es siba".
Siba is less an anarchy, than the absence of state, "makhzan" and/or opposition to a given Morrocean sultanate/caliphate/cherifate/etc. Basically a traditional unorganized rebellion which could be as likely included under one dynasty than totally rejecting another.

So, I elected to paint it with statelet colours, but to use de facto borders. Not sure if it's the best choice.

 

[Alex Richards]

Not...exactly.
Wattasid Morroco was a mess of quasi-vassalic entities, including Saadians, you can see thanks to the suzerainty outline, but there's as well one of the clear exemples of "bled es siba".
Siba is less an anarchy, than the absence of state, "makhzan" and/or opposition to a given Morrocean sultanate/caliphate/cherifate/etc. Basically a traditional unorganized rebellion which could be as likely included under one dynasty than totally rejecting another.

So, I elected to paint it with statelet colours, but to use de facto borders. Not sure if it's the best choice.

So sort of along the lines of Dithmarschen (peasant/lower class ruling and perhaps allied together against external forces, but without much in the way of a unified government) which controls the territory over a long period of time but rather than outright rejecting 'Royal' authority grants its support on a case-by-case basis?

Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?

 

[dirtyjapaneseman]

I'm not sure I understand your question.
Do you mean which program we use? Either paint or paint.net, generally.

If you meant which sources we're using...it depends a lot, but as a rule of thumb, we try to avoid as much as possible relying on one regional or world map.
Personally, I use a lot of Autrement editions historical atlases, which are a quality work.

Eventually, it's a mix of wikipedia maps (interestingly, while the articles aren't that good sometimes, maps on Wikipedia can be a good base to work with), historical atlases map, a bit of Euratlas (less for drawning than listing) and a lot of non-carthographical sources such as treaties, books, articles, etc.

At this point, it's rather what we don't really want to use on the Interwebz to do maps : the infamous Centennia atlas, or the Website-That-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named, in spite of its apparent popularity : these maps are either outdated, sloppy work, or opinionated stances.

One major issue I keep running into while I make maps is that my borders, while correct in shape, aren't correct in their geographical positioning. It's especially frustrating when it ends up throwing off the scope of the rest of the region. Any way I can avoid this?

 

[Alex Richards]

One major issue I keep running into while I make maps is that my borders, while correct in shape, aren't correct in their geographical positioning. It's especially frustrating when it ends up throwing off the scope of the rest of the region. Any way I can avoid this?

Have you tried using a terrain map as a background (Paint.NET or another programme with layers helps a lot here) so you can anchor the border at key points with respect to rivers, mountains etc?

And bear in mind that due to differing projections what might 'look' right may not necessarily 'be' right.

 

[LSCatilina]

Or have I got completely the wrong end of the stick?

It's more based on a tribal structures, essentially Berber, and not that opposed on the principle of a state that being equally inclusive and extremely resilient depending of the situation. It's something you can find a bit everywhere in North Africa, even if it tend to be called "bled el barud" elsewhere.
Sooo, maybe a good term would be "tribal anarchy hinterland", keeping in mind thay it's not only a matter of tribal structures, that it can be included into an islamic state structure, and that it can reach the coast.

So probably not "tribal anarchy hinterland" actually, but...It's probably good as any.

One major issue I keep running into while I make maps is that my borders, while correct in shape, aren't correct in their geographical positioning. It's especially frustrating when it ends up throwing off the scope of the rest of the region. Any way I can avoid this?

It's hard to avoid it, mostly because the basemaps aren"t always perfect themselves (either because of an error, but as well because borders take a whole pixel which doesn't let room for much details). Most maps are a compromise between shape and basemap positioning, for that matter : I often find mself favouring a slightly distorted basemap positioning in order to keep the general coherence.

So, it's not really avoidable IMO, but can be dealt trough compromise and correction of the basemap.
That said, for everything before the XVIIth century, it's not that of a problem, borders being less of a definied feature it became.

 

[Alex Richards]

It's more based on a tribal structures, essentially Berber, and not that opposed on the principle of a state that being equally inclusive and extremely resilient depending of the situation. It's something you can find a bit everywhere in North Africa, even if it tend to be called "bled el barud" elsewhere.
Sooo, maybe a good term would be "tribal anarchy hinterland", keeping in mind thay it's not only a matter of tribal structures, that it can be included into an islamic state structure, and that it can reach the coast.

So probably not "tribal anarchy hinterland" actually, but...It's probably good as any.

Oh god, one of those 'it is what it is and you just have to read up on it' situations.

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Oh god, one of those 'it is what it is and you just have to read up on it' situations.

I have an idea about that, but I'm not sure it would work. LSC, can you point me to any analogues of Anarchic "Tribal Hinterland" beside North Africa?

 

[LSCatilina]

I'm under the impression that part of Arabian peninsula for most of Antiquity and Middle-Ages (possibly peipheric nomadic peoples of Pharaonic Egypt too) could be considered as such, but the concept itself (or rather the concepts) are really tied up between the dichotomy of a coastal-centered state and peripherical (possibly coastal) tribal entities that are opposed but still mostly depending from each other to be definied, or even existing for the case of Morroco.
It's more close of a buffer zone, than a clearly delimited territory, which helps "siba" to be regularily intergated within the makhzen trough alliance, clientelization, vassalisation : it preceed the Arab conquest, as it's basically the situation in Late Antiquity Africa.

I'd rather not have it mapped with a special feature, because the degree of distanciation, opposition or integration largely depends from the political situation.

 

[LSCatilina]

Here's the situation for North Africa up to Libya, and insular Greece (I didn't get how to represent groups of islands)

Also, I had to change Venetian colour (present on the map). And we may (not sure) need another Maghrebian colour* for others mapq. And maybe an Hospitaleer colour, but we can use Jerusalem's.

*Mostly for Algerian polities, as the kingdom of Tlemcen.

 

[Alex Richards]

Is that just a slightly lighter Blue for Venice?

 

[LSCatilina]

Basically : it was a tiny bit too close of French blue and especially french influence blue for my tastes.
BTW : can you give me pointers on how to deal with insular political lines?

 

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

And we may (not sure) need another Maghrebian colour* for others mapq. And maybe an Hospitaleer colour, but we can use Jerusalem's.

*Mostly for Algerian polities, as the kingdom of Tlemcen.

It could double as a color for Malta/other Crusade State or Bronze Age sea people on the aRCS.

 

[Alex Richards]

Basically : it was a tiny bit too close of French blue and especially french influence blue for my tastes.
BTW : can you give me pointers on how to deal with insular political lines?

That's fair- could you drop me the RGB value?

As for the islands- as in administrative divisions or suzerainty?

 

[LSCatilina]

As in highlighting which block of islands belongs to whom, a bit like it happens with modern maps in Pacific Ocean.

 

[empty]

The maps are of January 1st right?

 

[LSCatilina]

The maps are of January 1st right?

Actually, it depends from map to map. 814 map, for instance, is mid-January. 117 is Augustus.
1520, as far as I'm concerned, is July (being in the middle of the year).

Of course, more you go back in time, less it's relevant : there's few mentions of months in most accounts of events so it's quite possible that an even only happening in December 1104 made its way to a map depicing early 1104.