Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[Chris S]

I’ve read several times in Russian forums that its confederal capital was supposed to be in Minsk But never could find a source for it, anyone got more information?

From what I can find of the New Union Treaty's text (in English) it says the capital was to be in Moscow (Article 21): https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-...ne-plus-one-agreement-texts/new-union-treaty/

Perhaps later this was changed to Minsk, but it could also be that this is in reference to the CIS headquarters being in Minsk and perhaps any new confederation proposed after that having its proposed capital in Minsk as well...

 

[Chris S]

Anyone knows if the flag of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics was supposed to be the same flag as the USSR, or a new one?

Did they even get as far as designing a new flag?

I believe that no, I even stumbled upon an old thread on this same forum of users proposing a flag for the "new" USSR that never was, apparently this one by Twister Ace went as far as to being sold on Amazon, as if is the official flag of a country that never existed.

Sadly, a lot of the flags are now dead links, if anyone has the flags of these thread backed up I would be very, very thankful!

Flag Contest for the Union of Sovereign Republics

Based on this TL: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/crisis-in-the-kremlin-an-extended-cold-war-tl.390118/page-52 Following is of spoiler: After the deposition of the hated Ligachev regime after the May Revolution of 1995, the citizens of the former USSR, now renamed the Union of...

www.alternatehistory.com

To be honest given that the original intention was to preserve even the acronym "USSR" and "CCCP" ("SSSR") by having the renewed union called the "Union of Sovereign Soviet Republics" in the earliest drafts from 1990 (https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/publications/soviet-news/1990/sovietnews_6555_1290.pdf - scroll to page 4) I suspect the flag would have remained unchanged and the elements simply reinterpreted. For instance the hammer stood for workers and the sickle stood for peasants, together in a revolutionary alliance and the star stood for the communist party. In any new reinterpretation the star could then be taken to stand for the unity of all the peoples or some such (much as how the acronym USSR/CCCP is basically rejigged to remove the reference to "socialist" but to have the "S" ("C") stand for something else instead) or they could remove the star and keep the rest of the flag.

 

[Thon Taddeo]

Here are various proposals for the Polish Border Strip.

https://imgur.com/a/pyQH26k

 

[Aghasverov]

Here are various proposals for the Polish Border Strip.

https://imgur.com/a/pyQH26k

Where on Earth have these been?
I've been looking for more detailed maps of the Border Strip proposals for so long, I had begun to suspect that none existed!

 

[Thon Taddeo]

Where on Earth have these been?
I've been looking for more detailed maps of the Border Strip proposals for so long, I had begun to suspect that none existed!

They're from Der polnische Grenzstreifen, 1914-1918 by Imanuel Geiss.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

They did not. The Commonwealth of Independent States, the closest thing we have to a continuation of the USSR aside from Russia itself, didn't adopt its flag until 1996. From 1992 until then, this was its flag:

View attachment 792989

Vexillology was clearly (and understandably) not high on their list of priorities

That font is okay

 

[athgtq16129]

I updated my map of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics because Nakhchivan seceded from the USSR on 20 January 1990, being the first part of the Soviet Union to break away from the country

On Saturday, January 20, 1990,[73] the Supreme Soviet of the Nakhchivan ASSR issued a declaration stating the intention for Nakhchivan to secede from the USSR to protest the Soviet Union's actions during Black January.[74] Iranian Press Agency, IRNA, reported that upon its independence, Nakhchivan asked Turkey, Iran, and the United Nations to come to its aid.[75] It was the first part of the Soviet Union to declare independence,[76] preceding Lithuania's declaration by only a few weeks.[77] Subsequently, Nakhchivan was independent from Moscow and Baku but was then brought under control by the clan of Heydar Aliyev.[78]

Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics managed to be established after Nakhchivan declared its independence, and the Azerbaijan SSR remained in this new USSR, what would become of Nakhchivan? would the Soviets eventually attempt to re-seize it, would the independent Armenia be the one who would try to seize it, would it voluntarily re-join the USSR eventually, or would it continue being independent as a tiny Azeri rump state?

The only thing I ever heard/read about that is that one proposal was to remove the star since it represented the absolute rule of the Communist party.

To be honest given that the original intention was to preserve even the acronym "USSR" and "CCCP" ("SSSR") by having the renewed union called the "Union of Sovereign Soviet Republics" in the earliest drafts from 1990 (https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/publications/soviet-news/1990/sovietnews_6555_1290.pdf - scroll to page 4) I suspect the flag would have remained unchanged and the elements simply reinterpreted. For instance the hammer stood for workers and the sickle stood for peasants, together in a revolutionary alliance and the star stood for the communist party. In any new reinterpretation the star could then be taken to stand for the unity of all the peoples or some such (much as how the acronym USSR/CCCP is basically rejigged to remove the reference to "socialist" but to have the "S" ("C") stand for something else instead) or they could remove the star and keep the rest of the flag.

So here is a quick one, an interpretation of the flag of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics, the reborn Soviet Union that never was:

 

[Gokbay]

I updated my map of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics because Nakhchivan seceded from the USSR on 20 January 1990, being the first part of the Soviet Union to break away from the country

Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics managed to be established after Nakhchivan declared its independence, and the Azerbaijan SSR remained in this new USSR, what would become of Nakhchivan? would the Soviets eventually attempt to re-seize it, would the independent Armenia be the one who would try to seize it, would it voluntarily re-join the USSR eventually, or would it continue being independent as a tiny Azeri rump state?


So here is a quick one, an interpretation of the flag of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics, the reborn Soviet Union that never was:
View attachment 793404

Independent Nakchivan (Turkish (and maybe Iranian?) supported vs Armenia and Azeri SSR within the New Union USSR would be a pretty interesting situation.



It kinda makes more sense to me that the hammer and sickle would be removed with the star probably enlarged a little and reinterpreted to stand for Unity.

 

[athgtq16129]

It kinda makes more sense to me that the hammer and sickle would be removed with the star probably enlarged a little and reinterpreted to stand for Unity.

Alright, how about this one? not sure about the position or dimensions of the star so here it is, I made it in 1 minute.

 

[Vladyslav]

If the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics managed to be established after Nakhchivan declared its independence, and the Azerbaijan SSR remained in this new USSR, what would become of Nakhchivan?

According Azerbaijani Wiki Nakhichevan cancelled its independence declaration after 8 days

Naxçıvan Muxtar Sovet Sosialist Respublikası — Vikipediya

az.m.wikipedia.org

 

[BrobDingnag]

Nakhichevan cancelled its independence declaration after 8 days.

“Vimes had found Old Stoneface’s journal in the Unseen University library. The man had been hard, no doubt about that. But they were hard times. He’d written: “In the Fyres of Struggle let us bake New Men, who Will Notte heed the Old Lies.” But the old lies had won in the end. He said to people: you’re free. And they said hooray, and then he showed them what freedom costs and they called him a tyrant and, as soon as he’d been betrayed, they milled around a bit like barn-bred chickens who’ve seen the big world outside for the first time, and then they went back into the warm and shut the door—”

Just came to mind.

 

[athgtq16129]

According Azerbaijani Wiki Nakhichevan cancelled its independence declaration after 8 days

Naxçıvan Muxtar Sovet Sosialist Respublikası — Vikipediya

az.m.wikipedia.org

Alright now I'm very confused, do we have other sources that confirm whenever if Nakhchivan "cancelled" their independence or not? this is the first time that I ever hear of this.

 

[Chris S]

I updated my map of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics because Nakhchivan seceded from the USSR on 20 January 1990, being the first part of the Soviet Union to break away from the country

Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics managed to be established after Nakhchivan declared its independence, and the Azerbaijan SSR remained in this new USSR, what would become of Nakhchivan? would the Soviets eventually attempt to re-seize it, would the independent Armenia be the one who would try to seize it, would it voluntarily re-join the USSR eventually, or would it continue being independent as a tiny Azeri rump state?


So here is a quick one, an interpretation of the flag of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics, the reborn Soviet Union that never was:
View attachment 793404

Since the independence was cancelled after 8 days may as well revert to your original map as Nakhchivan would thus have remained a part of the USSR (and indeed from memory it participated in the All-Union Referendum with the rest of Azerbaijan anyway). I guess the clue was that the independence declaration was actually a protest rather than an aim in and of itself.

Regarding the flag though, I really doubt there would be any changes, much less dropping the hammer and sickle and enlarging the star. Gorbachev was clearly trying to go for reform whilst keeping the trappings of the original Soviet state. If he was going for keeping the word "soviet" in the very name whilst switching out "socialist" for "sovereign" (and thus reinterpreting one of the "S"s in the acronym essentially), why on earth would he drop the very iconic hammer and sickle but keep the star (which explicitly was legally defined as the symbol of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in the flag as having a leading role over society (the hammer and sickle as the workers and peasants)) and indeed enlarge the star but redefine what it meant? Surely if he was going for minimalist changes in the symbols of state he would aim to keep the flag as it was and simply redefine the elements. At worst perhaps instead of a red star outlined in yellow/gold it might have been changed to a solid yellow/gold star. Overall though I highly doubt he would have pushed for a change in the flag at all and for any Union of Sovereign Soviet Republics to have come about it likely would have needed to have done so before the August Coup (and perhaps even before March 1991 if he could have gotten a draft that all of the republics that were interested in preserving the union could have agreed to early on) which means it comes into being as a Union of Sovereign Soviet Republics (USSR/CCCP) rather than the post-coup conceptualization as the Union of Sovereign States (USS/CCГ or SSG). At that point he seemed to be trying to keep a connection with the history including the victory in World War II (note that the short-form name of the state under the original proposal would still be "the Soviet Union" and in all likelihood the red of the flag would be reinterpreted to mean not just the original communist revolution but the blood spilt during World War II etc).

 

[Chris S]

Alright now I'm very confused, do we have other sources that confirm whenever if Nakhchivan "cancelled" their independence or not? this is the first time that I ever hear of this.

Well logically it must have been cancelled since Nakhchivan participated in the All-Union referendum in March 1991 although it seems turnout there was low (20%) as opposed to the rest of Azerbaijan (75%) quite possibly due to the authorities there being not supportive of the prospect or process. The Azeri wiki gives a reference to it being cancelled under threats from Baku and Moscow but it sounds like despite it being cancelled the authorities were still very much upset about Black January and expressed this displeasure through recalcitrance at doing anything official.

 

[athgtq16129]

Since the independence was cancelled after 8 days may as well revert to your original map as Nakhchivan would thus have remained a part of the USSR (and indeed from memory it participated in the All-Union Referendum with the rest of Azerbaijan anyway). I guess the clue was that the independence declaration was actually a protest rather than an aim in and of itself.

I added two versions of the map, one with Nakhchivan included in the new USSR, and another with Nakhchivan independent.

Also since the maps I posted are full of anachronistic modern-day administrative subdivisions (especially Pakistan and Iran), let's assume that the maps are set in the present day instead of 1990-1991, let's pretend that this is the territory of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics as of 2022.

 

[Voltzz]

They're from Der polnische Grenzstreifen, 1914-1918 by Imanuel Geiss.

Does that book have any more information on the more limited proposal Helmuth48 found?

I recently made this map for another thread, but it actually fits perfectly in this thread as well. It is a proposal of modest border changes "to improve the defences of Thorn, Soldau, and the Upper Silesian coal mines." This after a German victory against Russia in WW1. Source

 

[Vladyslav]

let's pretend that this is the territory of the Union of Soviet Sovereign Republics as of 2022

For record, I don't believe in USSR preservation in nine republic borders with 1991 PoD. 1990s economic depression was inevitable and it will strengthen Ukrainian separatism. With no GKChP PoD, Ukraine most likely would proclaimed independence in 1993-94 after early election and Rukh massive victory. The future fate of the Union will depend on Russia and whether it wants to remain one with Central Asia
Earlier PoD means possibility of Soviet/USS/Eurasian Moldova, Armenia and Georgia (from more likely to less)

 

[athgtq16129]

For record, I don't believe in USSR preservation in nine republic borders with 1991 PoD. 1990s economic depression was inevitable and it will strengthen Ukrainian separatism. With no GKChP PoD, Ukraine most likely would proclaimed independence in 1993-94 after early election and Rukh massive victory. The future fate of the Union will depend on Russia and whether it wants to remain one with Central Asia
Earlier PoD means possibility of Soviet/USS/Eurasian Moldova, Armenia and Georgia (from more likely to less)

So here is another one, new USSR with Ukraine independent.

 

[OxSpace]

So here is another one, new USSR with Ukraine independent.
View attachment 793550

I'm dubious about the status of Crimea here; Crimea had been elevated to an ASSR in 1991 and there were large Russophile parties taking hold in the region. Even after independence, the Bloc Russia held a supermajority in Crimea for a time which sought inclusion in the Russian Federation in the 90s.

 

[athgtq16129]

I'm dubious about the status of Crimea here; Crimea had been elevated to an ASSR in 1991 and there were large Russophile parties taking hold in the region. Even after independence, the Bloc Russia held a supermajority in Crimea for a time which sought inclusion in the Russian Federation in the 90s.

I'm on a map-making spree, any other possible suggestions of the likely borders/territories of this new USSR?