Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[CobaltChloride]

well the average population per province is about 20 mil which seems pretty reasonable

i just want to know what the provinces would be called lmao

I did my best to answer that question some time ago. I hope I got it right...

(Edit 1: Adapted from https://i.im gur.com/pPhAFfc.jpg, I cannot remember for the life of me where I found it though.)
(Edit 2: Obviously this map I posted uses the external borders of the PRC+RoC, I could do a version which includes all the RoC's claims against other countries if one wanted.)
(Edit 3: I did my best to keep it to Pinyin, though a more RoC-friendly Wade-Giles wouldn't be too hard for anyone to do, there are plenty of online conversion tools.)

 

[GauchoBadger]

State and territory proposals for Brazil

 

[FancyHat]

State and territory proposals for Brazil

Surely Juruá and Solimões wouldn't have existed at the same time.

 

[James the AH Fan]

I did my best to answer that question some time ago. I hope I got it right...

Damn that's amazing! We just need Worlda, Q-BAM, and the other projection patches

Edit:

 

[Drex]

 

[FancyHat]

View attachment 593167

What's the source you got this from, and was this a general war plan or made in response to a specific event?

 

[TunguskaStorm]

Did Napoleon have any long-term plans for the future besides to keep himself in power, to maintain France as the dominant power on the continent, and to keep the rest of Europe as part of the Continental System? The plan that seems to get thrown around the most on this site is that treaty between Spain and France which divided Portugal into three separate states, but I'm sure that was invalidated after Napoleon's invasion of Spain. But other than that, did he have any long-term territorial proposals? Were the vast territories he annexed, the Netherlands, Catalonia, the entire North Sea coast of Germany, most of North and Central Italy, and even Dalmatia and most of Slovenia, treated as actual provinces, and would have remained as such, or were they more like temporary occupations and military administrations?

 

[TunguskaStorm]

Speaking of that Lithuanian government that Napoleon set up, the borders of Vilnius, Minsk, Bielostok, and Grodno governorates actually corresponds perfectly to the borders of the Lithuanian-Belarusian Soviet Republic a century later, which has already been covered in this thread. I'll see if I can find a QBAM someone made for it or something, because it's the same borders

 

[TunguskaStorm]

map of the planned borders of the LitBel superimposed over state borders in 1920

Not quite a QBAM, and apparently the Lit-Bel SSR didn't include Bielostok governorate, but it's close enough

 

[Aghasverov]

Not quite a QBAM, and apparently the Lit-Bel SSR didn't include Bielostok governorate, but it's close enough

Never used QBAM before, but I've used other drafting/mapping applications doing GIS work - can you import a jpg, tif, or png file into QBAM to use as a template?
If so, the Russian-language maps in the Wiki articles on Lit-Bel and on the SSRB are excellent - lots of boundary info packed into 'em

 

[FancyHat]

Did Napoleon have any long-term plans for the future besides to keep himself in power, to maintain France as the dominant power on the continent, and to keep the rest of Europe as part of the Continental System? The plan that seems to get thrown around the most on this site is that treaty between Spain and France which divided Portugal into three separate states, but I'm sure that was invalidated after Napoleon's invasion of Spain. But other than that, did he have any long-term territorial proposals? Were the vast territories he annexed, the Netherlands, Catalonia, the entire North Sea coast of Germany, most of North and Central Italy, and even Dalmatia and most of Slovenia, treated as actual provinces, and would have remained as such, or were they more like temporary occupations and military administrations?

I'm certain northern Italy was supposed to be French going forward, and I wouldn't be surprised if Catalonia was the same, but as for the rest of France/Napoleon's annexations they either look like power projection, cleaning up after states he'd created, or just simple punitive land-grabs. So basically I don't know. I would guess that the North Sea coast would probably revert to someone else, as would Illyria, once Napoleon had actually won. I've got no clue about anything else.

My impression of Napoleon's state-building strategy (such as it was) was that it basically revolved around handing conquests over to family members and sometimes allies; the whole "sister republics" thing, as the name suggests, was more something the Republic did.

 

[TunguskaStorm]

Never used QBAM before, but I've used other drafting/mapping applications doing GIS work - can you import a jpg, tif, or png file into QBAM to use as a template?
If so, the Russian-language maps in the Wiki articles on Lit-Bel and on the SSRB are excellent - lots of boundary info packed into 'em

I actually don't know that, I've never made a map with QBAM before. QBAM isn't software, though, its just a base map that you edit using image editing software. I use paint.net, personally, haven't made any QBAMs yet

 

[UrbanNight]

I'm certain northern Italy was supposed to be French going forward, and I wouldn't be surprised if Catalonia was the same, but as for the rest of France/Napoleon's annexations they either look like power projection, cleaning up after states he'd created, or just simple punitive land-grabs. So basically I don't know. I would guess that the North Sea coast would probably revert to someone else, as would Illyria, once Napoleon had actually won. I've got no clue about anything else.

My understanding is that the annexations of Illyria and the North Sea coast were done to ensure the continuation of the Continental System, by preventing Austria, Prussia, and the other German states from trading with Britain by assuming direct control of major ports, and bring Holland back into alignment with the Continental System after Louis went native amongst the Dutch.

As such, I don't think they'd be left to someone else's rule, given that Napoleon had seen what had happened under his brothers rules in Spain and Holland.

 

[James the AH Fan]

Did Napoleon have any long-term plans for the future besides to keep himself in power

I heard from Arminius1871 on DA that he found a source somewhere that said Napoleon wanted to replace the Confederation of the Rhine with a united Germany under the Bonapartes. But when I asked him if he remembered the source, he told me he forgot it. Also, Naples was to be incorporated into the Kingdom of Italy, and Portugal was to be partitioned into Algarve, North Lusitania, and a rump Braganza state. Poland-Lithuania would likely be revived under the Duchy of Warsaw.

 

[TunguskaStorm]

I heard from Arminius1871 on DA that he found a source somewhere that said Napoleon wanted to replace the Confederation of the Rhine with a united Germany under the Bonapartes. But when I asked him if he remembered the source, he told me he forgot it. Also, Naples was to be incorporated into the Kingdom of Italy, and Portugal was to be partitioned into Algarve, North Lusitania, and a rump Braganza state. Poland-Lithuania would likely be revived under the Duchy of Warsaw.

The 1807 Treaty of Fontainebleau, the treaty retaining to Portugal you mentioned, essentially divided Portugal into Spanish and French-dominated states. The Algarve was to be given to a Spanish minister (coincidentally, who Napoleon hated), to revert to the crown of Spain if ever it had no heir, North Lusitania was to be given to the former Duke of Tuscany (it wasn't called Tuscany, but something else at that time, but I forget) in exchange for Napoleon annexing his lands in Tuscany itself. The rump Portuguese state itself was supposed to be under French military occupation. However, since the treaty required Spanish participation on the side of France, when Napoleon had already planned the invasion of Spain by that point, and involved giving a large amount of land to a man whom Napoleon hated, some historians believe the Treaty of Fontainebleau was never meant to be enforced at all, and was simply an excuse for Napoleon to house large amounts of troops in Spain for the upcoming Peninsular War, under the guise of needing the troops to invade Portugal.

Edit: Also, may I say how much I love the word "Fontainebleau"? So many vowels, French spelling is truly something else

 

[xmoose]

The 1807 Treaty of Fontainebleau, the treaty retaining to Portugal you mentioned, essentially divided Portugal into Spanish and French-dominated states. The Algarve was to be given to a Spanish minister (coincidentally, who Napoleon hated), to revert to the crown of Spain if ever it had no heir, North Lusitania was to be given to the former Duke of Tuscany (it wasn't called Tuscany, but something else at that time, but I forget) in exchange for Napoleon annexing his lands in Tuscany itself. The rump Portuguese state itself was supposed to be under French military occupation. However, since the treaty required Spanish participation on the side of France, when Napoleon had already planned the invasion of Spain by that point, and involved giving a large amount of land to a man whom Napoleon hated, some historians believe the Treaty of Fontainebleau was never meant to be enforced at all, and was simply an excuse for Napoleon to house large amounts of troops in Spain for the upcoming Peninsular War, under the guise of needing the troops to invade Portugal.

Edit: Also, may I say how much I love the word "Fontainebleau"? So many vowels, French spelling is truly something else

Tuscany was at that time transformed into Etruria.
Not sure about united Germany - maybe it would be, formally, actual confederacy, with at least some of kings and princes retaining titles, without much actual power (heh, tjat was basically RC ) - I mean Bonapartes has some family ties at least with Wittelsbach and Wurtemberg dynasty... on the other hand, OTL Napoleon remove from power his own brother, so...

About Italy - what happen to Murat and Caroline then? I guess united Italy would fall more likely to Napoleon son (especially if he has more than one)

 

[OxSpace]

So I was doing some reading regarding Hungary in WW2 and found some interesting concessions in discussions of September of 1943

From my understanding, it seemed as though the British were in favor of revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award and that is opposed to returning to the former Trianon borders. It also mentions a division of Transylvania between Hungary and Romania; would this simply be a confirmation of the second Vienna award?

 

[FancyHat]

From my understanding, it seemed as though the British were in favor of revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award and that is opposed to returning to the former Trianon borders. It also mentions a division of Transylvania between Hungary and Romania; would this simply be a confirmation of the second Vienna award?

"...revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award..." is a little difficult to parse, but yeah: seems like if Miklós Horthy had successfully switched sides to the Allies the British would've wanted Hungary to keep a decent amount of what they'd annexed from their neighbors. Personally I'd say that retaining the Second Vienna Award was most likely. First Vienna Award, less so given that the Munich Agreement had already been repudiated, but there might've at least been a referendum (absolutely not including Košice, though). As for Hungary's annexations of Yugoslav territory, I think the only part they could've plausibly kept would be Subotica.

 

[OxSpace]

"...revising much of the territorial acquisitions Hungary has made since the first Vienna award..." is a little difficult to parse, but yeah: seems like if Miklós Horthy had successfully switched sides to the Allies the British would've wanted Hungary to keep a decent amount of what they'd annexed from their neighbors. Personally I'd say that retaining the Second Vienna Award was most likely. First Vienna Award, less so given that the Munich Agreement had already been repudiated, but there might've at least been a referendum (absolutely not including Košice, though). As for Hungary's annexations of Yugoslav territory, I think the only part they could've plausibly kept would be Subotica.

Well, the First Vienna Award was a direct consequence of the Munich Agreement, and any nullification of the Munich Agreement has really no effect on the FVA. The British were quite aware that a population exchange wasn't applicable to Hungary and Slovakia, so I can very much see them keeping much of the ethnic Hungarian land, and returning the Slovakian land back. The passage never mentions Subcarpathia, I'd assume that even with a Hungarian capitulation to the Allies early and immediate switch-over to aggression against Nazi Germany, the Soviets would've still taken Subcarpathia, or at least the Ukrainian side? The problem of Transylvania really depends on the Soviets all things considered. The British knew they had little to no diplomatic leverage over the status of the territory. Who knows if the Romanian coup would've still happened had Hungary switched over and if that would've had any effect on Transylvania. As for Yugoslavia, the partisans weren't very prominent within the Hungarian occupied zone and the flat terrain made it extremely difficult for any type of guerilla tactics. It was planned that once Hungary switched sides they'd offer support to Tito and the partisans. Maybe the switch of Hungary would prompt Churchill's planned Balkan invasion in which a significant advantage would be employed on the future of Yugoslavia and its government?

 

[Chris S]

Did Napoleon have any long-term plans for the future besides to keep himself in power, to maintain France as the dominant power...........

I'm certain northern Italy was supposed to be French going forward, and I wouldn't be surprised if Catalonia was the same, .........

My understanding is that the annexations of Illyria and the North Sea coast were done to ensure the continuation of the Continental System..........

I heard from Arminius1871 on DA that he found a source somewhere that said Napoleon wanted to replace the Confederation of the Rhine with a united Germany under the Bonapartes. But when I asked him if he remembered the source, he told me he forgot it. Also, Naples was to be incorporated into the Kingdom of Italy, and Portugal was to be partitioned into Algarve, North Lusitania, and a rump Braganza state. Poland-Lithuania would likely be revived under the Duchy of Warsaw.

The 1807 Treaty of Fontainebleau, the treaty retaining to Portugal you ...........

Tuscany was at that time transformed into Etruria.
Not sure about united Germany - maybe it would be, formally, actual confederacy, with at least some of kings and princes retaining titles, without much actual power (heh, tjat was basically RC ) - I mean Bonapartes has some family ties at least with Wittelsbach and Wurtemberg dynasty... on the other hand, OTL Napoleon remove from power his own brother, so...

About Italy - what happen to Murat and Caroline then? I guess united Italy would fall more likely to Napoleon son (especially if he has more than one)

Funnily enough, the map of these scenarios (excepting the united Germany) was among the earliest maps in the thread.


If we take into acount what @James the AH Fan said about the possibility of the Confederation of the Rhine being replaced by a unified German state we would get this (Napoleonic Lithuania sold separately):