Plausibility Check-Llamas introduced to Mesoamerica

We had a productive thread on this subject a few years ago, but after recently revisiting some old notes of mine, I thought I'd canvass some opinions to see how possible/plausible people would find such an event occurring, and if it did occur, how far some sort of llama pastoralism could spread. Note that this is NOT a question about prehistoric animals surviving the Pleistocene extinction-this is about the animal familiar to us IOTL being introduced to Mesoamerica some time after it's domestication 3500BC-2500BC IOTL.

First, we need to take a look at our furry little subject, the llama. She's quite a tough fellow, carrying packs across the Andes mountains at high altitudes and freezing temperatures, but she has a couple sensitivities. She doesn't like heat, and she doesn't like humidity. She can take one or the other, but both combined are very bad for her. American llama farmers use a rule of thumb-if the temperature in Fahrenheit and the % of humidity in the air is above 150, llamas are at 'high' risk of heat stress. If both combined are above 180, llamas are at 'extreme' risk of heat stress and in imminent peril of death. Solutions include providing shade, shearing all but 1-3 inches of their fiber off, wetting and then drying them, and providing them electric fans (available to modern farmers but not, presumably, prehistoric Native Americans)[1].

This would make the trip from Peru to Mesoamerica very difficult. Llamas in tropical climates will surely all die quickly, right? Well, they can survive (but presumably not thrive) in warm tropical conditions, it turns out. In late 1989, an American business magnate looking to cash in on a llama craze (Michael Jackson had a pet llama in the 80's-it was crazy) decided to send a cargo full of llamas and alpacas to North America. Due to quarantine regulations, he decided to put them in a quarantine station on the island of Antigua. This businessman's own heavy-handed treatment of the Antiguans and Barbudans, local political conflicts, and some misunderstandings and/or untruths about the quarantine station resulted in the llamas getting dumped on a 6-acre island in Farley Bay on the island of Antigua. From about 250 llamas dumped on the island, 130 survived for over a year-less than half, but this was over the course of a whole year where heat and ocean humidity made a very poor habitat for them. By providing some shade and fodder, local veterinarians were able to stabilize the herd [2].

Could llamas be transported to Mesoamerica across low tropical latitudes before they all die? According to some researchers, the capability to do so did exist in South America. Ecuador (itself not really a llama habitat in the tropical lowlands) was home to peoples who built large, seaworthy balsa rafts and probably did trade with Mesoamerica. The extent of their interactions with Mesoamerica is debatable-were they occasional visitors? Regular traders? Did they spend months in Mesoamerica trading and mining ore? We don't really know-but on a physical level, their rafts certainly could reach Mesoamerica in 6-8 weeks of travel [3]

Looking at some of the climate data for western Mexico from the weather forcasting company Foreca [4], there are places in what would have been western Mesoamerica where combined heat and humidity was below a llama-killing 180 but no places where it was below a llama-hurting 150. The southermost city I could find using that data where the llama heat index would regularly be below 150 (and so, presumably, allow llamas to breed without heat stroke destroying large parts of the herd) was Patzcuaro-an area that was within the Mesoamerican sphere, but at its very fringe. Llamas brought to a western Mesoamerican port (say, Manzanillo-160 on the llama heat index at its most hot and humid, according to Foreca) could in theory survive, and be brought to Patzcuaro where they could thrive, but there was no reason to do so IOTL. Ecuadorian sailors did not have a reason to sail south to Peru, pick up llamas, sail them up to Mexico (losing half or more of their cargo in the process) and then march them up into the northern fringe of the Mesoamerican highland for local people to breed.

I can think of one scenario where such an exchange could happen-let me know if you think it's plausible or too implausible, or if you have an alternate scenario where this could happen. My idea is that in a situation where pre-Columbian bronze tools are more common (they existed IOTL, but were limited) people from OTL's northern Peru may, for political reasons, decide to source tin from Mesoamerica rather than from the Altiplano of Bolivia (tin is common there but if the people don't want to trade or there's war, you have to look elsewhere). West Mexico has tin deposits, even though they're not abundant [5]. Diplomats and merchants from northern Peru looking to trade tin or get permission to mine for it in the highlands could bring llamas from Peru to western Mesoamerica as tribute. Since they're being brought as exotic animals rather than livestock, the fact that a lot will die en route isn't a problem-it's good in fact, since it keeps them rare. Llamas are gifted to Mesoamerican elites in or near Patzcuaro in a similar manner to how OTL's Ming emperor was gifted giraffes and antelopes from Africa. But unlike these wild animals, llamas are domesticated and successfully breed while under human control in the west Mexican highlands. The herd grows to the point where elites gift the animals to each eother and, eventually, common people, introducing llama pastoralism to Mesoamerica.

Sorry for the essay. I'm afraid I've gone down an autism/obsessiveness rabbit hole on this very bizarre and specific topic, and feel the need to throw out some thoughts into the void to see what other people think. Even if all you do is read this far, thank you for bearing with me!

[1]Baum, Karen and Evans, Norman. Llama Medical Management. International Llama Association Educational Brochure #4.

[2]Schanche, Don Environmental Castaways in Caribbean, Llamas Wait for Rescue. Los Angeles Times, August 21 1990.

[3]Dewan, Leslie and Hosler, Dorothy, Ancient Maritime Trade between Ecuador and Western Mexico. Ininet.org via GoogleScholar.

[4]Available at https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine-in-Mexico

[5]Foshag, William. Tin Deposits in Mexico. US Department of the Interior, 1942.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
You rang?

I've looked into this a little bit for my timeline and I believe that your idea has merit. It may take a few tries to get any living ones up there, but the exotic to resident transition seems plausible to me, at least.
 
I think it's plausible, but it does require some specific circumstances, let's take the scenario you proposed as example:
Diplomats and merchants from northern Peru looking to trade tin or get permission to mine for it in the highlands could bring llamas from Peru to western Mesoamerica as tribute. Since they're being brought as exotic animals rather than livestock, the fact that a lot will die en route isn't a problem-it's good in fact, since it keeps them rare. Llamas are gifted to Mesoamerican elites in or near Patzcuaro in a similar manner to how OTL's Ming emperor was gifted giraffes and antelopes from Africa. But unlike these wild animals, llamas are domesticated and successfully breed while under human control in the west Mexican highlands. The herd grows to the point where elites gift the animals to each eother and, eventually, common people, introducing llama pastoralism to Mesoamerica.
Exotic to resident seems a good roadmap, but i don't think it can alone introduce llama pastoralism, mostly because i think it's fair to assume elites wouldn't take their prized gifts and herd them around, and this makes it difficult (or at least, potentially take too long time-wise to be feasible) for the commons to make it so, you do need to have something more.

If whatever people is inhabiting *Michoacán ITTL is already pastoralist for some reason, that could help, since it would make the transition from exotic to herding way more natural (it would just take one of the chiefs who were gifted llamas to notice the herding potential and work on it). Otherwise, i think you would need the andean merchants to settle permanently in some way, i don't think it's impossible for the locals to take it in their own, but permanent contact with llama caretakers will do wonders not only for exposure to how they're used, but also because the numbers of llamas coming to Mexico would keep constant: You do need a minimum number of llamas before think of widespread adopting of llama herding, after all, and i'm not sure if exotic gifting can make up for it in numbers.
 
Could llamas be transported to Mesoamerica across low tropical latitudes before they all die? According to some researchers, the capability to do so did exist in South America. Ecuador (itself not really a llama habitat in the tropical lowlands) was home to peoples who built large, seaworthy balsa rafts and probably did trade with Mesoamerica. The extent of their interactions with Mesoamerica is debatable-were they occasional visitors? Regular traders? Did they spend months in Mesoamerica trading and mining ore? We don't really know-but on a physical level, their rafts certainly could reach Mesoamerica in 6-8 weeks of travel [3]
The problem is for reasons you pointed out, those in the tropical lowlands who were making the trip to western Mesoamerica were not llama herders. IIRC llama remains there are very rare and probably represent gifts or exotic animals from those who actually did herd llamas. But it might be possible for llama herders in nearby highlands to be better integrated with the lowlands. During the rainy season (December - April looking at the climate) they live higher in the mountains and in the dry season they reside nearer to coastal cities and frequently travel there. Or perhaps breed llamas specifically for those hot, dry climates--smaller, muscular animals with very thin coats that are mostly used for meat.
I can think of one scenario where such an exchange could happen-let me know if you think it's plausible or too implausible, or if you have an alternate scenario where this could happen. My idea is that in a situation where pre-Columbian bronze tools are more common (they existed IOTL, but were limited) people from OTL's northern Peru may, for political reasons, decide to source tin from Mesoamerica rather than from the Altiplano of Bolivia (tin is common there but if the people don't want to trade or there's war, you have to look elsewhere). West Mexico has tin deposits, even though they're not abundant [5]. Diplomats and merchants from northern Peru looking to trade tin or get permission to mine for it in the highlands could bring llamas from Peru to western Mesoamerica as tribute. Since they're being brought as exotic animals rather than livestock, the fact that a lot will die en route isn't a problem-it's good in fact, since it keeps them rare. Llamas are gifted to Mesoamerican elites in or near Patzcuaro in a similar manner to how OTL's Ming emperor was gifted giraffes and antelopes from Africa. But unlike these wild animals, llamas are domesticated and successfully breed while under human control in the west Mexican highlands. The herd grows to the point where elites gift the animals to each eother and, eventually, common people, introducing llama pastoralism to Mesoamerica.
One potential problem is that while coastal states in Mesoamerica traded often with the highlands, they disliked being controlled by them. This means a valuable gift like a llama isn't going to go to a ruler of Patzcuaro or a nearby city, it's going to the ruler of the city-state on the coast. Patzcuaro's elite, as part of the Purepecha Empire, did attempt to conquer coastal city states but in the end they largely failed due to the more pressing need to combat the Aztecs. That said, it's probably not impossible.

I think you might just need better shipbuilding technology in general. There was seaborne trade that involved the Maya cities trading with Central America, mostly for gold, maybe have new sorts of larger, faster ships emerge and spread to coastal Ecuador. This would cause an increase of trade and more easily permit breeding populations of llamas to be imported.
 
Cool premise and solid research!

In regards to how it came to be, is it possible that due to the aforementioned trade some adventurous merchant/noble with more wealth than sense decides to hop on one of these boats Southward to explore foreign lands and during this gets a sense for how useful a Llama could be and so tried to bring the back home?
 
We had a productive thread on this subject a few years ago, but after recently revisiting some old notes of mine, I thought I'd canvass some opinions to see how possible/plausible people would find such an event occurring, and if it did occur, how far some sort of llama pastoralism could spread. Note that this is NOT a question about prehistoric animals surviving the Pleistocene extinction-this is about the animal familiar to us IOTL being introduced to Mesoamerica some time after it's domestication 3500BC-2500BC IOTL.

First, we need to take a look at our furry little subject, the llama. She's quite a tough fellow, carrying packs across the Andes mountains at high altitudes and freezing temperatures, but she has a couple sensitivities. She doesn't like heat, and she doesn't like humidity. She can take one or the other, but both combined are very bad for her. American llama farmers use a rule of thumb-if the temperature in Fahrenheit and the % of humidity in the air is above 150, llamas are at 'high' risk of heat stress. If both combined are above 180, llamas are at 'extreme' risk of heat stress and in imminent peril of death. Solutions include providing shade, shearing all but 1-3 inches of their fiber off, wetting and then drying them, and providing them electric fans (available to modern farmers but not, presumably, prehistoric Native Americans)[1].

This would make the trip from Peru to Mesoamerica very difficult. Llamas in tropical climates will surely all die quickly, right? Well, they can survive (but presumably not thrive) in warm tropical conditions, it turns out. In late 1989, an American business magnate looking to cash in on a llama craze (Michael Jackson had a pet llama in the 80's-it was crazy) decided to send a cargo full of llamas and alpacas to North America. Due to quarantine regulations, he decided to put them in a quarantine station on the island of Antigua. This businessman's own heavy-handed treatment of the Antiguans and Barbudans, local political conflicts, and some misunderstandings and/or untruths about the quarantine station resulted in the llamas getting dumped on a 6-acre island in Farley Bay on the island of Antigua. From about 250 llamas dumped on the island, 130 survived for over a year-less than half, but this was over the course of a whole year where heat and ocean humidity made a very poor habitat for them. By providing some shade and fodder, local veterinarians were able to stabilize the herd [2].

Could llamas be transported to Mesoamerica across low tropical latitudes before they all die? According to some researchers, the capability to do so did exist in South America. Ecuador (itself not really a llama habitat in the tropical lowlands) was home to peoples who built large, seaworthy balsa rafts and probably did trade with Mesoamerica. The extent of their interactions with Mesoamerica is debatable-were they occasional visitors? Regular traders? Did they spend months in Mesoamerica trading and mining ore? We don't really know-but on a physical level, their rafts certainly could reach Mesoamerica in 6-8 weeks of travel [3]

Looking at some of the climate data for western Mexico from the weather forcasting company Foreca [4], there are places in what would have been western Mesoamerica where combined heat and humidity was below a llama-killing 180 but no places where it was below a llama-hurting 150. The southermost city I could find using that data where the llama heat index would regularly be below 150 (and so, presumably, allow llamas to breed without heat stroke destroying large parts of the herd) was Patzcuaro-an area that was within the Mesoamerican sphere, but at its very fringe. Llamas brought to a western Mesoamerican port (say, Manzanillo-160 on the llama heat index at its most hot and humid, according to Foreca) could in theory survive, and be brought to Patzcuaro where they could thrive, but there was no reason to do so IOTL. Ecuadorian sailors did not have a reason to sail south to Peru, pick up llamas, sail them up to Mexico (losing half or more of their cargo in the process) and then march them up into the northern fringe of the Mesoamerican highland for local people to breed.

I can think of one scenario where such an exchange could happen-let me know if you think it's plausible or too implausible, or if you have an alternate scenario where this could happen. My idea is that in a situation where pre-Columbian bronze tools are more common (they existed IOTL, but were limited) people from OTL's northern Peru may, for political reasons, decide to source tin from Mesoamerica rather than from the Altiplano of Bolivia (tin is common there but if the people don't want to trade or there's war, you have to look elsewhere). West Mexico has tin deposits, even though they're not abundant [5]. Diplomats and merchants from northern Peru looking to trade tin or get permission to mine for it in the highlands could bring llamas from Peru to western Mesoamerica as tribute. Since they're being brought as exotic animals rather than livestock, the fact that a lot will die en route isn't a problem-it's good in fact, since it keeps them rare. Llamas are gifted to Mesoamerican elites in or near Patzcuaro in a similar manner to how OTL's Ming emperor was gifted giraffes and antelopes from Africa. But unlike these wild animals, llamas are domesticated and successfully breed while under human control in the west Mexican highlands. The herd grows to the point where elites gift the animals to each eother and, eventually, common people, introducing llama pastoralism to Mesoamerica.

Sorry for the essay. I'm afraid I've gone down an autism/obsessiveness rabbit hole on this very bizarre and specific topic, and feel the need to throw out some thoughts into the void to see what other people think. Even if all you do is read this far, thank you for bearing with me!

[1]Baum, Karen and Evans, Norman. Llama Medical Management. International Llama Association Educational Brochure #4.

[2]Schanche, Don Environmental Castaways in Caribbean, Llamas Wait for Rescue. Los Angeles Times, August 21 1990.

[3]Dewan, Leslie and Hosler, Dorothy, Ancient Maritime Trade between Ecuador and Western Mexico. Ininet.org via GoogleScholar.

[4]Available at https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Temperature-Sunshine-in-Mexico

[5]Foshag, William. Tin Deposits in Mexico. US Department of the Interior, 1942.
Maybe they would be domesticated by the declining Mayans but that's it, due to being mountain animals.
 
Cool premise and solid research!

In regards to how it came to be, is it possible that due to the aforementioned trade some adventurous merchant/noble with more wealth than sense decides to hop on one of these boats Southward to explore foreign lands and during this gets a sense for how useful a Llama could be and so tried to bring the back home?
That's a good point-the Mesoamericans aren't just subjects waiting for the Andeans to bring them stuff, they can be active participants in this process.
 
That's a good point-the Mesoamericans aren't just subjects waiting for the Andeans to bring them stuff, they can be active participants in this process.
Thanks, and yeah well said there!

I figured that might make it easier to justify in some ways to, IE, someone local having a vested interest in seeing Llama's arrive even if its just rooted in them being kind of an odd duck, or genuinely insightful enough to see their potential.
 
Do the heat and humidity concerns extend to the alpaca/vicuna? If not, perhaps introducing those as wool-bearing animals would be the "gateway" domesticate leading to a later concerted effort to import the llama (in a similar way, domesticated cattle may have been an 'inspiration' to the horse domesticators).
 
Do the heat and humidity concerns extend to the alpaca/vicuna? If not, perhaps introducing those as wool-bearing animals would be the "gateway" domesticate leading to a later concerted effort to import the llama (in a similar way, domesticated cattle may have been an 'inspiration' to the horse domesticators).
I have so far not been able to find a specific description of environmental limitations for the alpaca. While there is alpaca rearing in North America, every map I've seen of alpaca/vicuna and llama/guanaco distributions always shows the former as having a smaller, more restricted range, which indicates to me that it is probably more environmentally sensitive and so less likely than the llama to be introduced to Mesoamerica.
 
I mean it's not like mexico is all tropical and were Mexico city altitude is comparable to Arequipa the problem would be you have to trade enough enough quantities to reproduce but also the meso Americans have to have some issue for it while evidence of trade between meso America and the Andes exist from what I read we have evidence of trade from west mexico to Ecuador so it's all theoretically possible
 
Thought I'd resurrect this thread for a quick book recommendation. Llamas beyond the Andes by Marcia Stephenson, published 2023 by the University of Austin Press, has a fascinating description of European reactions to encountering South American camelids, and descriptions of what transporting camelids was like in the Age of Sail.

According to Professor Stephenson, most attempts to translocate camelids failed miserably; the animals died quickly on ships sailing through hot tropical climates, or were fatally injured by storms around Cape Horn, or succumbed to disease soon after arriving to Europe. In a point of defense for my thesis in this thread, though, it looks like the Empress Josephine Bonapart successfully bred a pair of llamas who were transported to France via the Caribbean (Their journey went Andes-Cartagena-Saint Domingue-France. Not an easy trip for anyone!), showing that these animals can potentially survive a trip through tropical climates. Josephine followed up this success by trying to bring a breeding herd of alpacas and wild vicuñas to France, but the few of these delicate animals who survived the trip did not survive long enough to establish a breeding herd, being wiped out by a skin disease.

Vicuñas and alpacas could produce fine wool and so were potentially valuable to Europeans, while llamas did not produce or do anything that Eurasian animals didn't already do better, so no European elite really made a concerted effort to establish a breeding population. However, a society that lacked livestock to fill certain niches that the llama can fill would probably see more demand to import the creatures.
 
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Thought I'd resurrect this thread for a quick book recommendation. Llamas beyond the Andes by Marcia Stephenson, published 2023 by the University of Austin Press, has a fascinating description of European reactions to encountering South American camelids, and descriptions of what transporting camelids was like in the Age of Sail.

According to Professor Stephenson, most attempts to translocate camelids failed miserably; the animals died quickly on ships sailing through hot tropical climates, or were fatally injured by storms around Cape Horn, or succumbed to disease soon after arriving to Europe. In a point of defense for my thesis in this thread, though, it looks like the Empress Josephine Bonapart successfully bred a pair of llamas who were transported to France via the Caribbean (Their journey went Andes-Cartagena-Saint Domingue-France. Not an easy trip for anyone!), showing that these animals can potentially survive a trip through tropical climates. Josephine followed up this success by trying to bring a breeding herd of alpacas and wild vicuñas to France, but the few of these delicate animals who survived the trip did not survive long enough to establish a breeding herd, being wiped out by a skin disease.

Vicuñas and alpacas could produce fine wool and so were potentially valuable to Europeans, while llamas did not produce or do anything that Eurasian animals didn't already do better, so no European elite really made a concerted effort to establish a breeding population. However, a society that lacked livestock to fill certain niches that the llama can fill would probably see more demand to import the creatures.
This actually makes me wonder about land-expansion of the llama range, would it be possible for them to adapt to more plain habitats, while their herding spreads beyond the Andes, towards the Amazon Basin, the Gran Chaco and the Northern Plains?
 
This actually makes me wonder about land-expansion of the llama range, would it be possible for them to adapt to more plain habitats, while their herding spreads beyond the Andes, towards the Amazon Basin, the Gran Chaco and the Northern Plains?
I think llamas could in theory adapt to the gran Chaco, at least in the Chaco seco region, because wild guanacos live there. I envision pastoralists crossbreeding llamas and local guanacos to make a well-adapted but fiber poor breed. I can see them trading llama jerky and pack animal services for agricultural products from riverside farmers. The Parana river valley will be a hard border for llama pastoralism IMO, it just gets too humid for them.

For the northern plains, do you mean the North American Great Plains, or the Cerrado?
 
I was actually talking about the sub-andean Llanos and coastal forests of Colombia/Venezuela, although your comments on humidity kinda fated these cases for a solid "nope".
Nature is a harsh accountant. For everything you add, something must be subtracted. Llamas are beautifully adapted for cold desert climates, but the this makes them very badly adapted for facing the reverse.
 
@Arkenfolm is right. In my opinion anyway. Better technology in the realm of seafaring would drastically improve trade between Mesoamerica, Central America, and the Andean world, with tech, science, trade, and ideas flowing back and from Mesoamerica to South America in both ways. This makes it easier for llamas to be in demand in Mesoamerica, as traders could easily see the advantages of Llamas. Plus, could it be possible for a Mayan person to invent the wheelbarrow, if they are inspired to try to make something that can attach to llamas.
 
Plus, how sure is it that the seafarers were from the wet coast of Ecuador? A bit south is the drier coast of Peru, Moche culture and so... and llamas were present there.
And domestic animals did travel - the hairless dogs.
Exotic gift llamas might need actual pastoralists, true, who are absent in Mexico. But a Western Mexican highland ruler with enough scope of influence to control some section of coast and enforce passage of his guests might not see it as a threat if a group of, say, 5...10 adult men arrive with wives, children, tools of trade, valuable skills and some domestic animals. Teotihuacan had a lot of barrios associated with specific distant regions.
So you have a small group of immigrants from coastal Peru who work bronze, provide the King with fancy bronze ornaments and arms, and also keep llamas (on drier marginal land on the northern margin of kingdom, that is cheaper for maize growing). And readily multiply and interbreed with natives (people do, llamas can only multiply, and do). What would happen next?
 
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