Phillip II of Spain’s two sons

Nova_Philomena

I’m OTL, Phillip II of Spain and his third wife, Elisabeth of Valois had two daughters, Isabel Clara Eugenia and Catalina Micaela, but what if they were both sons (Named Philip and Ferdinand respectively)?

I know Don Carlos’s death may be butterflied, but at the same time Philip didn’t exactly want him to succeed him, Philip or Ferdinand could also possibly gain France, or at the very least Burgundy or Milan.
 

Dragonboy

Nova_Philomena said:
I’m OTL, Phillip II of Spain and his third wife, Elisabeth of Valois had two daughters, Isabel Clara Eugenia and Catalina Micaela, but what if they were both sons (Named Philip and Ferdinand respectively)?

I know Don Carlos’s death may be butterflied, but at the same time Philip didn’t exactly want him to succeed him, Philip or Ferdinand could also possibly gain France, or at the very least Burgundy or Milan.
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Philip will get Spain and Portugal beign the eldest (portgual of sebastian still does his thing) And ferdinand will defintely get burgundy.
 

Nova_Philomena

Dragonboy said:
Then portugal is integrated more easily.

Philip gets Burgundy and hopefully be more tolerant and ferdinand Milan.
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If Louise of Lorraine and Elisabeth of Austria still have no surviving kids, Philip can get France.

The only way a son of Elisabeth of Valois would get Spain is if Don Carlos dies early or Philip II decides he really doesn’t want Carlos as his heir and curthouses him.
 

Nuraghe

Nova_Philomena said:
I’m OTL, Phillip II of Spain and his third wife, Elisabeth of Valois had two daughters, Isabel Clara Eugenia and Catalina Micaela, but what if they were both sons (Named Philip and Ferdinand respectively)?

I know Don Carlos’s death may be butterflied, but at the same time Philip didn’t exactly want him to succeed him, Philip or Ferdinand could also possibly gain France, or at the very least Burgundy or Milan.
Click to expand...


in the event that Carlos dies like Otl, Philip will probably inherit the Iberian possessions ( also including Spanish Italy ) and the colonies, while Ferdinand will become Duke of Burgundy and will be engaged to a Lorraine duchess / minor archduchess / Italian princess ( this scenario long favors Spain, since it would have more resources to be able to use elsewhere, compared to Otl, since I imagine that the Spanish troops will remain permanently in Burgundy until the new duke comes of age, and then only intervene as external support, so I can imagine see their direct involvement in the region from the death of Philip II onwards gradually reduced, which can avoid the bankruptcies of 1607, 1611 and the continuous Dutch ulcer which in Otl ended only in 1648, and then evolved into the exhausting defense of the region until to 1700 ) otherwise, with the survival of Don Carlos, I see Philip becoming Duke of Burgundy and Ferdinand as governor/viceroy in Spanish Italy


@isabella @Kellan Sullivan
 
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Nova_Philomena

Nuraghe said:
in the event that Carlos dies like Otl, Philip will probably inherit the Iberian possessions ( also including Spanish Italy ) and the colonies, while Ferdinand will become Duke of Burgundy and will be engaged to a Lorraine duchess / minor archduchess / Italian princess ( this scenario long favors Spain, since it would have more resources to be able to use elsewhere, compared to Otl, since I imagine that the Spanish troops will remain permanently in Burgundy until the new duke comes of age, and then only intervene as external support, so I can imagine see their direct involvement in the region from the death of Philip II onwards gradually reduced, which can avoid the bankruptcies of 1607, 1611 and the continuous Dutch ulcer which in Otl ended only in 1648, and then evolved into the exhausting defense of the region until to 1700 ) otherwise, with the survival of Don Carlos, I see Philip becoming Duke of Burgundy and Ferdinand as governor/viceroy in Spanish Italy
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Probably Christina of Lorraine

He could become King of France as Philip tried to put Isabel Clara on the throne but couldn’t due to Salic law, but with two sons, he may be able to do it.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nova_Philomena said:
Probably Christina of Lorraine
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doubtful. She was ward of her grandma, Caterina de Medici, who wanted her to become Henri IV's second wife (Henri IV refused Caterina's offers to annul his marriage to Margot). It was only shortly before Henri IV became king that Christine married her Medici husband at the "advanced" age of 24yo (spinsterhood was deemed to begin at 25yo).

Antoinette is more likely. Her issues with conceiving were entirely her husband's AFAIK
 

Nova_Philomena

Kellan Sullivan said:
doubtful. She was ward of her grandma, Caterina de Medici, who wanted her to become Henri IV's second wife (Henri IV refused Caterina's offers to annul his marriage to Margot). It was only shortly before Henri IV became king that Christine married her Medici husband at the "advanced" age of 24yo (spinsterhood was deemed to begin at 25yo).

Antoinette is more likely. Her issues with conceiving were entirely her husband's AFAIK
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In this scenario, Henri may not even become King of France, meaning he could remain married to Marguerite and Christina can be passed to one of Philips sons.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Nova_Philomena said:
In this scenario, Henri may not even become King of France, meaning he could remain married to Marguerite and Christina can be passed to one of Philips sons.
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Henri becoming king of France had nothing to do with him remaining married to Margot. Pretty much everyone except Henri-Margot wanted the couple divorced. Henri doesn't become king of France, whoever does will likely make a divorce part of the peace settlement
 

Nova_Philomena

Kellan Sullivan said:
Henri becoming king of France had nothing to do with him remaining married to Margot. Pretty much everyone except Henri-Margot wanted the couple divorced. Henri doesn't become king of France, whoever does will likely make a divorce part of the peace settlement
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I don’t think Philip would settle with Antoinette de Lorraine for his son, no other Valois princesses running around or at least grand children of Francis?
 

isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
The only problem is a majority of France detest Habsburgs, but lots of the Spaniards disliked the Bourbons, yet they still worked
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If Philippe has been raised mostly in Burgundy as was expected who he would become their Duke after Philip II’s death (but naturally they would instead pass to Ferdinand in the end ) he would be much more French than Spanish or AustriaN, so is unlikely he would be seen as too foreigner by his new subjects
 

Nova_Philomena

isabella said:
If Philippe has been raised mostly in Burgundy as was expected who he would become their Duke after Philip II’s death (but naturally they would instead pass to Ferdinand in the end ) he would be much more French than Spanish or AustriaN, so is unlikely he would be seen as too foreigner by his new subjects
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If he still manages to become King of France, could Catherine de' Medici finally give Christina of Lorraine to Philippe? Or in a wilder scenario, Marguerite d'Valois (Though that age-gap would give anyone pause)
 

isabella

Nova_Philomena said:
If he still manages to become King of France, could Catherine de' Medici finally give Christina of Lorraine to Philippe? Or in a wilder scenario, Marguerite d'Valois (Though that age-gap would give anyone pause)
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Marguerite is married and far too old, but Christine is possible if Catherine de’ Medici dies as OTL or a little earlier and she is still unmarried (as Henry III was killed some months after his mother’s death). In any case it is not impossible who Philippe and Christine would be engaged earlier, after Henry of Navarre refuted her as Catherine could see benefits in marrying her grandchildren for trying to put distance between the heir of Burgundy and his Spanish father and half-brother…
 
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