Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

[Magnificate]

especially like how the western territories covered are only blue, but the westwards arrow is purple I can only imagine whats that supposed to mean

Not to mention map 1 that has blue Corridor and Gdańsk, but yellow sea access. Seriously, it looks as if gaining sea access was purely accidental.
As for colonies, I'm really worried that 3 in 8 people have then in either purple, blue or green. Seriously, it's 1919, there are no profitable colonies left and domestic issues are orders of magnitude more important!

Also the blue or green Masurias. As said, 97%!

While I can understand that, (after all, after Posen, Upper Silesia and the Corridor that is the most natural direction of Polish expansion), the ones willing to accept or actively pursue the rest of East Prussia seem to unaware of the problems it would cause.

expecting better labour laws and economical conditions etc in Germany

Can't argue with that. After all, only so many people cast their votes out of nationalist sentiment. Others simply stay with the state that offeres stability and better chance to feed their families. At the time of the plebiscite many considerated that state to be Germany rather than Poland.

Its a puzzle, and maybe the OTL border, even though dictated by France, and even though giving the actually clearly German voting Industrial area to Poland, wasnt so bad at all...

Yeah. A year or so ago I attempted to draw a 'fair' border in Upper Silesia and every deviation from OTL border raised problems. The railways we especially aggravating. I know they are of secondary importance and you can rebuilt them eventually, but severing railway connections in industrial region simply shouldn't be done.

Red is a more advantageous proposal for Germany,

Red borders appeal to my sense of aesthetics and I'll surely use it on my maps someday However, with me favouring westwards expansion it can't be considered very advantageous. BTW, that map is divided into counties, isn't it?

 

[Susano]

While I can understand that, (after all, after Posen, Upper Silesia and the Corridor that is the most natural direction of Polish expansion), the ones willing to accept or actively pursue the rest of East Prussia seem to unaware of the problems it would cause.

As said, I think Masuria alone wouldnt really cause problems itself - but then again, as said Masuria alone also isnt worth much, heh.

Yeah. A year or so ago I attempted to draw a 'fair' border in Upper Silesia and every deviation from OTL border raised problems. The railways we especially aggravating. I know they are of secondary importance and you can rebuilt them eventually, but severing railway connections in industrial region simply shouldn't be done.

Yeah. Looking at that uber-BAM of Upper Silesia that was linked to in some map thread by, err, you actually I think, it seems railways figured in majorly in the border drawing process.
Looking at the votes by county I guess one could have a more Germany friendly and a more Poland friendly version here, too (Wiki map of the plebiscite area for name references): In the former version, Germany would retain Kattowitz (city and county), Beuthen (city and county) and Königshütte (and hence most of the Industrial area) and most of Lublinitz. In the latter version, Poland would additionally gain Beuthen, Hindenburg (hence the rest of the Industrial area), Gleiwitz, Tost-Gleiwitz and most of Groß-Strehlitz (and maybe bits of Kosel). Oppeln already voted too firmly German, and the other remaining counties even more so.

Red borders appeal to my sense of aesthetics and I'll surely use it on my maps someday However, with me favouring westwards expansion it can't be considered very advantageous. BTW, that map is divided into counties, isn't it?

Well, of course our respective national biases will shine through most of the time, so of course both "proposals" of me are more advantageous for Germany (as shown by the OTL border for comparison) Of course, tendentially I might even favour the orange version, since that "Thorn-Kulm corridor" is so clearly Polish in majority...
And yes, the borders in the coloured areas are counties, including county-level cities. County seats are underlined, government district seats double underlined. City size is supposed to be identifiable by the font size. And in case it cant be decyphered by the numerals alone, darker red means >75% German, lighter red means 50-75% German, darker blue means >75% Polish, lighter blue 50-75% Polish. Filled out quadrats are cities >75% Polish, filled out circles 50-75% polish, hollow circles 50-75% German and hollow quadrats >75% German.

Since that map is a German source clearly showing an, err, ethnic-Polish corridor to the sea, I found it to be trustworthy...

 

[ctesiphon]

Susano, on Masuria, just a quick answer because I have a huge headache.

Basically, I agree with you, the only area where realistically Poland could win and get it is Stuhm kreis, and it wouldn't get all of it. But I still thought they should go for plebiscite because, well, why not, if everything important is secure. And assumed that if you make a plebiscite, you are "doing something", so I can't colour it yellow.

 

[Snaut]

Priority 1: The corridor is vital, since Germany probably can't be trusted not to bully Poland by way of tarriff war if it can get away with it. Incorporating Danzig itself isn't that important, but it should be kept out of Germany's hands initially for the same reason, being the only viable port. (Hence I marked sea access as a top priority, but annexing Danzig as a lesser one). Also Poland will need as much industry as it can get, at least some of Silesia is invaluable. Krakow and Poznan aren't that vital economically, but are historically Polish areas with advanced infrastructure and several million people, almost all Poles.

Priority 2: The rest of upper Silesia, and Cieszyn, as far as industry is concerned. Also Lvov and Vilnius - large Polish-majority cities surrounded by Polish-majority countryside.

Priority 3: East Galicia and some northeastern areas can easily be Polonized, but are of little value. Danzig would be nice to annex directly, but incorporating it isn't that crucial in itself.

Take if offered: East Prussia and more of Silesia would be nice to have, but aren't worth picking a fight over. The same with some more eastern territories up to the OTL eastern border, anything more would cause severe ethnic strife. EDIT: Silesia is well developed, and expanding beyond the OTL plebiscite area if offered more territory is excusable.

Expanding anywhere else means including poor areas with almost no Poles, and expansion to the south would only antagonize potential allies (Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania). Poland's colonies are the Kresy, and Poland doesn't need anything more.

 

[Magnificate]

Two more maps. Cast your votes!

 

[Mr. BoJangles]

Two more maps. Cast your votes!

I cast my vote for #1 forever

 

[Susano]

Two more maps. Cast your votes!

1 is too meek westwards, and 2 too agressive. Poland should definitly try to gain Posen Province/Greater Poland, but OTOH there is just no justification to also acquire those border parts that remained with Germany IOTL!

 

[Magnificate]

I cast my vote for #1 forever

Huh, by 'cast your votes' I meant to say 'fill and post your maps if you haven't already.'

Anyway, for those interested propaganda map for Upper Silesian plebiscite.

 

[wormyguy]

Anyway, for those interested propaganda map for Upper Silesian plebiscite.

It would be great if we could get a translation. I'm especially interested in what it says in German - is it trying to appeal to German Catholics?

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Here's my map, with some explanations:

(1) Lithuania (the grey squares) should be considered with an all or nothing approach. If it is possible to take it all, by all means go for it (and give it autonomy). If not, stay out, don't even ask for Vilnius.

(2) White Russia (the black squares) and the Ukraine (the grey ones) come with strings attached. If the yellow areas of either region are taken, Poland should give that entire region autonomy. The checkered squares are for areas that may or may not be included in the autonomous regions.

(3) I'm not sure what the star, arrows and squares are supposed to mean and don't have time to read this whole thread to find out, so I left them blank.

(4) In case it's not noticed, I'll mention that I divided both Posen and Pomerelia between blue and green.

 

[Susano]

It would be great if we could get a translation. I'm especially interested in what it says in German - is it trying to appeal to German Catholics?

I would assume it says the same in both languages. Bilingual posters were heavily used by both sides.

The poster claims that the map is a copy of a confidential map of the German propaganda side, in which it lists which cities are projected to vote German (red underlined), which Polish (blue), and which are uncertain (yellow). The argument is hence that the German side already has given up the eastern parts of Upper Silesia, and that hence the western parts should also vote Polish, lest they be split off the Industrial Area (which is in the extreme east).

Of course, the formulation is very hamfisted: The prediction of bad economical consequences rather read like threats (no coal for you, no jobs for you etc)...

 

[Magnificate]

I would assume it says the same in both languages.

With my minimal understanding of German I can confirm that.

After 18 surveys the preeliminary map is ready. (I'd like to see at least 7 more.) I assigned 5 points to Purple, 3 points to Blue, 1 point to Green, 0 points to Yellow and -5 points to Red. (I don't know if Green is not underrepresented.)

EDIT: Westermost Upper Silesia is incorrectly colored.

EDIT: For those interested link to demographic map of Upper Silesia from the same atlas as Susano's Greater Poland and Corridor map.

 

[Nietzsche]

Nietzsche:

Not in the least. Of course I can’t agree with giving up Silesia or sea access. I do wonder why did you put Suwałki as lower priority than Poznań/Poznań?

As for the PoleTrolls, so far not one has appeared, so I would appreciate if we kept the jokes down.

Because, honestly, Posen is more trouble than it's worth for Prussia/Germany.

 

[Basilisk]

The biggest long-term threat to Poland is the existence of the Germans in East Prussia. A successful Polish state needs Baltic access, even if this means pissing of Germany majorly. The new Poland state will have to be strong enough to be able to defend itself from Germany, and ensuring close ties with the Czechs should be a top priority. In the east, Poland has little to gain by trying to force Lithuania in, rather, making the Baltic states close allies will be most beneficial to Poland's security from Russia Only keep Vilnius if Lithuania wholeheartedly consents.. Ukrainians should be kept out of the new state, and a policy of not pissing off Russians should be scrutinously followed. Infact, Poland has much to gain by being a close economic parter with Russia and strengthening trade connections - at no point should Poland engage in policies that'd align it with any other power that goes against Russia, as a Polish-Russian pact would be vital to Poland's security from Germany.
Any further expansion should be out of the question, for sake of the state's own stability, security, and prestige, especially expansion at Germany's stake.
Incorporating East Prussia into the Polish state would be one of the biggest challenge to the new government. Any movement that'd expel Germans would piss off Germany, but for a large part, the new government should push for Polish resettlement of East Prussian lands. Especially in Konigsberg, where it may be best to just vacate the city and give Poles grants to live there. As for the Germans in the west...should not be harrassed or expelled, just encouraged to embrace the Polish state and hopefully be assimilated. Emigration to Germany should be an easy process, but Poland stands to gain economically if a large number of Germans are retained. With healthy relations with Russia as well as extensive Baltic access, western and northern Poland should be able to modernize and industrialize relatively quickly, and Poland would be able to hold it's own weight against Germany in any future war, especially if German armies are bogged down in the west.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Why everyone keeps including the Bukovina I'll never understand. Also, I think you missed the Polish part of Teschen Silesia, so I added that (unfortunately it's green next to blue, the blue being Auschwitz-Zator).

Here's a modified version, the result of further research. Sea access should come in the form of either Memelland (with or without the cross-river extension) or northern Pomerelia, but not both.

 

[Gladi]

Two more maps. Cast your votes!

I vote for war!

I can sort of understand Teschen, but Orava and Spiš? And especially Orava which contains a MAJOR railroad track?

 

[Susano]

Especially in Konigsberg, where it may be best to just vacate the city and give Poles grants to live there. As for the Germans in the west...should not be harrassed or expelled, just encouraged to embrace the Polish state and hopefully be assimilated. Emigration to Germany should be an easy process, but Poland stands to gain economically if a large number of Germans are retained. With healthy relations with Russia as well as extensive Baltic access, western and northern Poland should be able to modernize and industrialize relatively quickly, and Poland would be able to hold it's own weight against Germany in any future war, especially if German armies are bogged down in the west.

Lovely defense of ethnic cleansing

You know, I think the problems with most PoleTrolls*, and with Polish elites in the Interbellum, is that they think in absolutely the wrong scale regarding Poland. Poland cannot become a Great Power, simple as that, and hence in a 1v1 will always lose against a rearmed Germany. Hence all those constructions to ensure the Polish defense against Germany are naively futile at best, and shoddy pretexts at worst. Poland can only hope for allies, and those are independent of its territory and borders.

And continuing on that point, it seems PoleTrolls* think Poland somehow had a right to become a Great Power, because it was some centuries ago. As both Hurgan and Molobo have aptly and amply demonstrated at times here, they dont really care about people being opressed per se. Their problem with other countries overlording over Poland isnt the overlording, but that they want to see Poland doing the overlording over other nations.

*Which of course exludes the vast majority of modern Poles. However, one could say the wish for colonies shown on those maps is a... related attitude.

 

[Mulder]

The biggest long-term threat to Poland is the existence of the Germans in East Prussia. A successful Polish state needs Baltic access, even if this means pissing of Germany majorly. The new Poland state will have to be strong enough to be able to defend itself from Germany, and ensuring close ties with the Czechs should be a top priority. In the east, Poland has little to gain by trying to force Lithuania in, rather, making the Baltic states close allies will be most beneficial to Poland's security from Russia Only keep Vilnius if Lithuania wholeheartedly consents.. Ukrainians should be kept out of the new state, and a policy of not pissing off Russians should be scrutinously followed. Infact, Poland has much to gain by being a close economic parter with Russia and strengthening trade connections - at no point should Poland engage in policies that'd align it with any other power that goes against Russia, as a Polish-Russian pact would be vital to Poland's security from Germany.
Any further expansion should be out of the question, for sake of the state's own stability, security, and prestige, especially expansion at Germany's stake.
Incorporating East Prussia into the Polish state would be one of the biggest challenge to the new government. Any movement that'd expel Germans would piss off Germany, but for a large part, the new government should push for Polish resettlement of East Prussian lands. Especially in Konigsberg, where it may be best to just vacate the city and give Poles grants to live there. As for the Germans in the west...should not be harrassed or expelled, just encouraged to embrace the Polish state and hopefully be assimilated. Emigration to Germany should be an easy process, but Poland stands to gain economically if a large number of Germans are retained. With healthy relations with Russia as well as extensive Baltic access, western and northern Poland should be able to modernize and industrialize relatively quickly, and Poland would be able to hold it's own weight against Germany in any future war, especially if German armies are bogged down in the west.

Saying that ethnically cleansing any part of East Prussia would piss Germany off is a MAJOR underestimation. Every German from Saarlouis to Breslau and from Flensburg to Klagenfurt will cry for Polish blood afterwards. And I don't think this Poland will be able to defend itself from a German attack any better than in OTL. Especially since I presume that Russia still is the Soviet Union, so any Polish alliance with the Soviet will mean Franco-British neutrality in case of a German attack. So the only allies left for Poland are the insignificant Baltic states, Czechoslovakia and Romania. OTOH, if Czechoslovakia declares war on Germany in case of an attack on Poland, Hungary will certainly join the war on the German side. And I think that if Germany is run by someone else than Hitler (i.e. a sane right-wing junta, which I think is the most likely outcome of TTL, since Weimar will probably fall earlier than OTL, since the German electorate is even more radicalized, or even a surviving "Putinist" Weimar), at least Britain will be neutral in a German-Polish war, since their attitude by the time the 1930s started in OTL was that Germany was unjustly screwed by Versailles. And in TTL, Germany was not only unjustly screwed, but far more. And if Britain stays neutral, there is a good chance France does as well, or declares war on Germany and does nothing as in OTL. Well, and when this Poland gets defeated by Germany, it is in for a world of pain. At least, I expect the situation between Germany and Poland after that war to be a reversal of OTL post-1945, since Germany will surely kick both the Polish settlers out of East Prussia (if any survive the initial "revenge actions" by German troops) and do some ethnic cleansing of its own in Posen, West Prussia and Upper Silesia.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Some suggestions for the base map:

(1) Divide Central Lithuania across the current Lithuanian-Belarusian border and separate Grodno from the Belarusian part.

(2) Divide the Bukovina across the current Romanian-Ukrainian border.

(3) Incorporate Draheim and Poland's maximal claims in Slovakia.

(4) Divide the Grenzmark into a Posen area and a West Prussian one.

(5) Separate Cracow, Auschwitz-Zator and the Polish part of Teschen Silesia from western Galicia.

(6) Separate Siewierz from the Polish core and divide the rest into a southeastern area (including Warsaw) and a northwestern one (including Lodz).

(7) Separate Soldau, the Kulmerland and the northern part of the Netze District from Pomerelia.

(8) Separate Prussian Lithuania, Warmia, Elbing, Marienburg, Marienwerder, and Deutsch Eylau from East Prussia.

(9) Separate Gniesen from Posen and divide the rest into a northeastern area (including the city) and a southwestern one.

(10) Divide Nowogrodek across the Neman.

(11) Divide Bialystok and Brest to incorporate the Lithuanian claims.

(12) Separate the Rusyn regions in the Carpathians from the areas that they are in.

(13) Divide Suwalki into a northern area (including the city) and a southern one (including Augustow).

 

[ctesiphon]

Incorporating East Prussia into the Polish state would be one of the biggest challenge to the new government.

I'll skip the part about how expelling anybody from his homeland is loathsome.

1. Poland will NEVER be able to hold it's own against a Germany that is not crippled. Especially without Silesia.

2. You just made everybody in Germany want to kick Poland out of Prussia, and everybody in the west thinking Germany is right. Because it would be.


That being said, he has some point about East Prussia, because as long as Germany and Poland exist, there are Poles in the Corridor and Germans east of it, you could never satisfy both sides. Well, not in that era.

Oh, and you make Poland a Russian puppet. Grrrrrreat!