Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

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Susano

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Well, I included smiley, but yeah - I think that anything beyond Posen would be regarded as unacceptable loss by Germans, and another reason why unjust Versailles should be contested. (I also think that OTL interwar Polish-German border was fair compromise).

Well, personally I dont think a link to East Prussia would be justified (if nice ;) ), but a bit eastwards it could have been. The cities of Bromberg/Bydgoszcz, Birnbaum/Międzychód, Lissa/Lesno, Rawitsch/Ravicz, Konitz/Chojnice were all clearly of German majority and near enough to be the OTL border... I mean, it would (except for Bromberg/Bydgoszcz) be no great chances, but due to the fact that such territories did end up Polish despite their clear majorities let the border not really appear as a fair compromise to me. Oh, and then theres Danzig/Gdansk, of course...

Of course, yes, most German politicans at the time did want to regain West Prussia. However, I dont think this means a military confrontation between Poland and Germany is inevitable. Without major crisises, or if those had been navigated through, I think Germany would eventually have gotten over it... I mean, after some years of Polish rule there werent German majorities left anywhere those territories anyway...
 

Susano

Banned
Truth be told, for this thread I always need to have a Wikipedia window opened. I always forget "Bydgoszcz" ;)

Ah, and t_m, as for you edit: Wasnt the Trade War started by Poland? Besides, from German side it seems quite legitimate considering how many territories became Polish without referendum, or by Allied intervention.
 

Susano

Banned
Seriously though, AFAIK it was initiated by Stresemann after the favourable trade clauses, for example concerning coal exports, imposed by Versailles Treaty expired.

Ah ;)

Ah well. Either East Prussia or Pommerelia will end up as exclave. And with the Pommerelia Polish, the Danzig/Gdansk harbour loses much of its hinterland. And the Upper Silesian Industrial area will most likely end up at a border, or with a border right through it. Really, ironically it seems a customs union would be best for both sides. Good luck with that, though, of course ;)
 
Well, personally I dont think a link to East Prussia would be justified (if nice ;) ), but a bit eastwards it could have been. The cities of Bromberg/Bydgoszcz, Birnbaum/Międzychód, Lissa/Lesno, Rawitsch/Ravicz, Konitz/Chojnice were all clearly of German majority and near enough to be the OTL border... I mean, it would (except for Bromberg/Bydgoszcz) be no great chances, but due to the fact that such territories did end up Polish despite their clear majorities let the border not really appear as a fair compromise to me. Oh, and then theres Danzig/Gdansk, of course...

Yeah, maybe. But, looking at this German map it seems that area was quite messy to draw proper border, more messy than Upper Silesia and by far less strategically important. (I`m living in that area BTW (Grudziądz/Graudenz).
Of course, yes, most German politicans at the time did want to regain West Prussia. However, I dont think this means a military confrontation between Poland and Germany is inevitable. Without major crisises, or if those had been navigated through, I think Germany would eventually have gotten over it... I mean, after some years of Polish rule there werent German majorities left anywhere those territories anyway...
Perhaps you`re right. I might be a little bit biased, after encountering several internet discussions accusing some aggressive anti-German Polish policy for sparking WW2.;) Yeah - maybe 'hitlerless' Germany could normalise relations with Poland over time - would be great for Poland, since SU was regarded as biggest threat up until 1939. I think that Poland could let Gdańsk go, since Gdynia was already built.

Kudos for maintaing both German and Polish names... I consistently fail on Szccczczczcz...whatever-Stettin... :eek:
Szczecin sounds almost exactly like Stettin.;) Try to pronounce Szczebrzeszyn or Brzęczkowice.:D
 

Susano

Banned
Yeah, maybe. But, looking at this German map it seems that area was quite messy to draw proper border, more messy than Upper Silesia and by far less strategically important. (I`m living in that area BTW (Grudziądz/Graudenz).
Ah. Well, by that map a "Bromberg-Torun-Chelmo Corridor", with Pommerelia as Polish exclave, seems the most fair option, I would say. I dont know how accurate the map is, though. It shows The entire Thorn/Torun area as ethnic German, whereas the by-county map I use does not - but at least there I can be certain it was done based on censuses which would go by county and city. Drawing ethnic blobs ;) is always also much intepretation... and of course, on the other side, Masuria and Memelland soon, ah, proved to be different then that maps claims, heh.

Perhaps you`re right. I might be a little bit biased, after encountering several internet discussions accusing some aggressive anti-German Polish policy for sparking WW2.;) Yeah - maybe 'hitlerless' Germany could normalise relations with Poland over time - would be great for Poland, since SU was regarded as biggest threat up until 1939. I think that Poland could let Gdańsk go, since Gdynia was already built.
Hah, well, no wonder if you go to such places which are apparently abysses of the internet ;) Well, as said, IMO in 1919 the border should have been different, but by the 30s demographics had shifted such that it didnt matter much anymore. Austria and the Sudetenland would then matter more, IMO.

Szczecin sounds almost exactly like Stettin.;) Try to pronounce Szczebrzeszyn or Brzęczkowice.:D
I have heard that before, but... how? Szczecin is full of s-like sounds, or so it looks to us. Where are the t sounds? Unless Polish c sounds like t, I guess... ;)
 
Well here's my take.

Map_Survey_Mk_II_by_Magnificate.png
 
Well, that seems to be a bit of a double standard. The Lvov region is a historical Polish centre, but (except for the city itself) ethnically Ukrainian. Vilnius is a historically Lithuanian centre, but ethnically Polish. So if either standard is coherently uses, Poland should only get one of the two (preferably Vilnius IMO). That being said, I have them both as blue on my map, too ;) But thats mostly because IOTL theres no independent Ukraine around...

Exactly. The city of Wilno is Polish (well, Jewish, then Polish), and the surrounding countryside is nebulously Slavic. Lithuania's claim is purely historical, and I don't have any interest in that. Whereas while the countryside surrounding Lwow is Ukrainian, it and other major urban centres are Polish, forming a big Polish minority.

I consider "independent Ukraine" (as opposed to Polish puppet Ukraine, or several Ukrainian warlord fiefs, or Franco-Polish puppet "Ukraine" which is actually a neo-Tsarist Russian-chauvinist dictatorship...) all but impossible as a post-Tsarist state, and independent Galicia is just too small and has too many Poles to get off the ground, as we saw OTL.

Therefore, the choices are Poland or the Soviets. Of course, if you asked Galician Ukrainians for their opinions before collectivisation, the Holodomor, the Ukrainian terror, the end of nativisation, the reconciliation with the Russian Orthodox Church, and the insulation of the USSR from all outside influences, you'd probably get a lot of grudging Sovietophilia; but that hardly factors in Polish calculations, and anyway you can pretty much count on all that stuff under Stalin.

The ideal would be a fulfilment of promised autonomy with Poland, but at any time before Poland is a nasty dictatorship sufficiently confident to put its trust in the Polish population and naked coercion, that's toor isky for the Polish leadership because the Soviets are still evangelising Galicia with some success.

Once again, the only viable escape from the labyrinthine ethnic conflicts of Central Europe is a surviving Haspburg empire. ;)
 
This is my approach to to this issue:

http://magnificate.deviantart.com/art/Map-Survey-Mk-II-161680812

Grey colour means exactly the same as red colour ("Keep out!").

Various tints of grey represent independent Lithuania and independent states (instead of just parts of the Soviet Union) of Belarus and Ukraine:

My most important criteria for each region:

Priority 1:

0, 1, 7, 8, 28, 29, 26, 25, 24, south-western part of 9 - ethnic, cultural and historical
4, 5 - ethnic, industrial and distant history
11, 12 - ethnic, access to the sea and historical
37 - cultural, historical (Lwow) and ethnic
10 - access to the sea, defensive (Vistula line, fortress Grudziadz/Graudenz), ethnic and historical
27 - defensive (fortress Brest) and ethnic

Priority 2:

3 - ethnic, industrial (http://www.okd.cz/en/coal-mining/ostrava-karvina-coal-basin) and historical
34, 33, southern parts of 22 & 32 - cultural, ethnic (in part of this area native Polish speakers were majority, in the other part they were large portion), historical*
16 - natural defensive qualities (area of Masuria would be an easy to defend northern border of Poland), ethnic (native Polish speakers were majority in southern East Prussia, which had been an object of Polish colonization since 14th century - see this German map from 1907 made by Paul Langhans - http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...russia_1907.jpeg&filetimestamp=20090425165331)
41 - industry and natural resources (particularly the Boryslav-Drohobych Oil-Gas Industrial Area)
9 - shape of border and defensive (Notec/Netze river, Vistula river, Bydgoszcz/Bromberg bridgehead)

Priority 3:

35, 39 - defensive (Pripet Marshes) and majority of "nationally unconscious" population ("locals" from Polesie) who had nothing against Polish rules**
36 - shape of border (if Poland has got 35 & 39), defensive, significant Polish minority**
15 - ethnic (large percentage of Polish population) and defensive
13 (southern part) - ethnic (large percentage of Polish population)

Maybe... :

17, 14 - Danzig & East Prussia - these 2 "enclaves" surrounded by Poland & Lithuania - were the hot spots in Polish-German relations during entire interwar period, were the pretext for Hitler to invade Poland, and enabled Germany to encircle Poland from 3 sides in 1939 and invade deep Polish rears from East Prussia. Without these areas being German (but for example being partly Polish, partly Lithuanian) it would be much easier to defend Poland against Nazi Germany. With East Prussia being German, the issue of "Polish Corridor" would always be a hot spot in Polish-German relations and thus a threat for Polish territorial integrity and independence. Since Poland absolutely needed the Corridor (= access to the Sea), it should have exploited any opportunity to deprive Germany of East Prussia, even though such opportunity was unlikely to happen. Danzig was also very important for Polish economy (it had been important for Polish economy yet since 15th century). Without Danzig and after German economic boycott of Poland, Poland had to build Gdynia from scratch.

Notes:

*As for 22 - northern part of region 22 (including Wilno / Vilnius) was left for Lithuania, despite its ethnic Polish majority, for political-diplomatic & historical reasons.

I would like post-1918 Poland to build good and friendly relations with Lithuania. That's why Vilnius should remain in Lithuania.

**In case if Poland doesn't get 35, 36 and 39 - I give 39 and 35 to Belarus (maybe except for most southern parts) and 36 to Ukraine.

Map_Survey_Mk_II_by_Magnificate.png
 
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Gian

Banned
Here's my take on Poland's optimal borders . . .

WOZo39M.png

Of course, I would recommend the areas shown in Purple, Blue, and Green.

My Priorities critea was simply ethnic, with some maybes . . .

-Bukovina = would probably be given to Poland if Romania wasn't a factor. Otherwise, all of it should be given to Bucharest
-Colonies = the only colony I see would be Gambia (which was a Polish fief)
 
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