Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

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In the west things are debatable but in the east they can have whatever they can grab- gives us someone fighting the Soviets and saves more people from their rule.
 
In the west things are debatable but in the east they can have whatever they can grab- gives us someone fighting the Soviets and saves more people from their rule.

I am dubious (hello mr. dubious!) Unless they take enough to really cripple the USSR (all the Ukraine+all of Belarus at a minimum, and probably quite a bit more) this just pisses off the Soviets, makes a German-Soviet alliance even more likely, [1] and creates a more unstable Polish state, which is not greatly strengthened by millions more impoverished Ukranians very unhappy about Warsaw's rule. [2]

Bruce

[1] In which case the people "saved" will just get the full rigors of Stalinization a bit later than OTL.
[2] Of course, if Poland creates Happy Shiny Federal Multinational State, that's different, but as to the likelihood of such a scenario...
 
This is a version for the plausible situation (if Poland could create a Shiny Federation it would be different, if Lithuania could be friendly it would be different too).

On the German side - Silesia is REALLY important, and so is sea access in any shape or form, and this is what Poland should fight for first. Corridor is green because on the map it is separate from the sea access. Sea access is the most important part of it. Rest is not necessary, though Masuria could be integrated pretty easily. Danzig can be useful, but would be a headache, and scraps of German Greater Poland would make the map at least look good.

In Lithuania (if it won't be federated nor friendly), take Vilnius and leave the rest.

In Ukraine take Lviv and only care about the farther parts of Galicia, and maybe western Volhynia to shorten borders if all other, more important objectives are secured. Ukrainians will cause more trouble than the lands are worth. Perhaps east east Galicia and west Volhynia should be yellow too.

Belarussian lands are much poorer, but at least they won't cause that much trouble.

In the south, Spiš and Orava are Polish-populated, but shouldn't be actively pursued if at peace with Czechoslovakia.
They are not, leave them be. Should be red on the map. Don't take Tešin/Teschen/Cieszyn, because the Czechs really require it (there's an extremely important train station for them in there).

Other than that, for a Polish nation state like OTL - do not want.

Oh, and Dyneburg - I don't know how many Poles were there, but unless very many, or Latvia falls - don't touch it.

 
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Susano

Banned
Rest is not necessary, though Masuria could be integrated pretty easily.
Well, yes, if we only go by wether its possible, then indeed it should be doable without too much headache, but really now - there was after all a plebiscite, and the results were a staggering 97% for Germany!

In the south, Spiš and Orava are Polish-populated,
Ive always wondered why Poland took them. Were they Polish majority? Because somehow basically all ethnical maps Ive seen have shown them as Slovak-majority...

Don't take Tešin/Teschen/Cieszyn, because the Czechs really require it (there's and extremely important train station for them).
Meh, railroads can be rebuilt. Of course in the immidiate aftermath of WW1 Czechoslovakia needed it due to the war with Hungary, but there should maybe have been a clause about a referendum 10 years in the future or so.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Why, this doesn't show my biases at all...

Poland.png
 
[poletroll]In this map I aim to show historical borders of POLAND during POLISH-LITHUANIAN COMMONWEALTH and also western borders of King Wencelaus V Podolska. POLISH territories belonging to NAZI Germans are in rightful Territory of Poland, and so are stolen territories of Russia in partition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_poland). With these borders and also German colonies Poland is strong enough to defend against German-RUSSIAN aggression and cowardly betrayal by western powers of France, Britain, UNITED STATES. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal)[/poletroll]
My thoughts exactly.
 
Well, yes, if we only go by wether its possible, then indeed it should be doable without too much headache, but really now - there was after all a plebiscite, and the results were a staggering 97% for Germany!

Yes, but it should be attempted. Also, the plebiscite was in July 1920, I would vote for Germany in that case. Maybe it would be a bit more than 3% Poland if there was no Bolshevik horde at the gates of Warsaw. I counted that as priority 3.


Ive always wondered why Poland took them. Were they Polish majority? Because somehow basically all ethnical maps Ive seen have shown them as Slovak-majority...

Crap, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this, sorry. Magnificate's map has northern parts of Orava and Spis, which I had in mind, included in western Galicia. Don't know why I haven't noticed that. To the south there were some Poles, but the area should have been red (or green if put together with that two scraps) Editing the text but the map will stay.

Meh, railroads can be rebuilt. Of course in the immidiate aftermath of WW1 Czechoslovakia needed it due to the war with Hungary, but there should maybe have been a clause about a referendum 10 years in the future or so.

At my so called University, I was told that it was the only rail road linking Prague and Bratislava through Czech territory. If that's true, they really needed it and I can understand why they took it in 1919 (they only took outskirts of the town, with the station, leaving the rest). Antagonizing yet another neighbour because of few towns and some industry is silly. But yeah, referendum in 10 years is OK, I thought of it too while writing the first post.
 
As long as you all refuse to recognize Poland's right and just need for an outlet to the Pacific I can not support this thread.:(
 
Originally posted by Grimm Reaper
As long as you all refuse to recognize Poland's right and just need for an outlet to the Pacific I can not support this thread.

Of course he had that right. Many of exiles to Siberia and Far East were Polish, after all. That gives us rightful claim. Also, Bronisław Piłsudski (Józef's brother), an anthropologist, was married to Ainu chieftain's daughter, which gives us valid claim to Sakhalin. Not to mention Russia owed us something for over century of opression.

But seriously, our claims to Baltic and the Pomeranian Corridor were quite valid and serious.
 

wormyguy

Banned
As long as you all refuse to recognize Poland's right and just need for an outlet to the Pacific I can not support this thread.:(
I detect a hint of pro-German ethnic bias in this sentiment. Poland deserves a port on the Indian as well, to make up for western betrayal.
 
OK, some more comments:

wormyguy:
A very bad scenario for Poland is to be invaded by either of these two great powers. The nightmare scenario is to be invaded by both at the same time. Therefore, Poland cannot (as OTL) maintain a policy of antagonizing both Russia and Germany.
If Poland does not contain any former German territory, […] Poland must still therefore allow a great deal of German influence, if not control, into the country.
Being friendly with Russia is essentially not an option, because Russia will only be friends with a puppet Poland, where more decisions are made in Moscow than Warsaw.
One wonders why OTL Poland wouldn’t allow itself be a client of neither Germany nor Russia. ;) Still, if Germany is more stable than OTL, Russia looks like it would be rife with warlordism for the next decade and there is a Polish leader that actively works to calm Poles in Posen/Poznań then it might work.
Susano:
1. Brest […] I do think the city and its environs should belong to Poland, as a Belorussian Brest would make for awful borders and bad economical areas. OTOH, the border may immidatly run east to it. Hence my rough division of it
I agree. Brest/Brześć and Hrodna/Grodno should be easy enough to negotiate if Polish eastern borders were to be roughly similar to OTL post-WWII ones.
2. The Chelm area can be considered Polish coreland, and should be among Polands order 1 priorities - but OTOH the Ukranian claim is understandable due to demographics. So if Poland is forced to make compromises its at least possible to do it on that region. It should really be avoided, though. Hence the striping...
I’d rather compromise in Białystok area. Still, you are right, unless something very wrong is going on in the east Chełm area is most likely to be Polish.
4. The "Vilnius Corridor" and Lemberg...err, Lviv/Lwow city (if not surroundings) have Polish majorities, so that should be order 2 priorities...
Considering Lwów/Lemberg is easier to take and hold without international fuss (Since Lithuania has a higher chance of existing than Ukraine) I’d place Lwów/Lemberg higher than Wilno/Vilnus. As for the “Vilnus Corridor” north of Vilnius, it should be of much lower priority, unless Lithuania is hostile and Poland is looking to link up with Latvia and even then it I would place it at Priority 3.
5. If at the east is an USSR then Poland might want to have a bufferzone between it and its core territories.
I’m tempted to agree, however I would prefer if that bufferzone consisted of buffer states rather than annexed territories.
Trying to get near Kiev in any case is just asking for troubles, and to the east of Belorus Russia proper already starts, which would be even more trouble!
Agree.
6. Theres no point in trying to gain East Prussia or Lithuania in its interbellum borders.
As for East Prussia, yeah, it’s unattainable without post-WWII scale relocations and AFAIK
no one was willing to do that post-WWI. As for Lithuania, yeah, Lithuanians were quite hostile to Poland in that period and saw us as one of the greatest threats to their independence. Unless Lithuania is going Soviet and there is a possibility of attaining lands up to river Neman or for some reason there is a relatively pro-Polish government that would agree to federation, keep out.
7. Rutheno-Carpathia and the Bukovina would mean an unity of Russinian people, which could come to support Poland hence, but theres no need to actively pursue that.
Essentially, more Ukrainians, more problems. Avoid.
8. Come on, taking Spisz and Orawa was really just dickish! They were historically Hungarian and ethnically Slovakian, I think...
It’s been hard for me to find any concrete data on the subject. Those lands are all mountain villages anyway, therefore not really worth pursuing.
9. The Polish parts of Teschen should be tried to be gained, but its not worth a major conflict with Czechoslovakia, at least certainly not immidatly after WW1.
AFAIK Cieszyn/Teschen was controlled by Poland and then snatched by Chechoslovakia while Poland was distracted in the east. As I said before, it should be easy enough to keep otherwise. Then the best solution would be to actually allow the Cieszyn Silesia plebiscite. Poland had s a decent chance of winning that one and Czechs would get to keep Czech-majority areas. As for the railway, an agreement with Poland concerning it would be a nice first step towards an alliance.
10. Upper Silesia... […]All in all I do certainly think Poland should make an attempt to get at least as much as IOTL, but more of it (and the Upper Silesian industrial area as a whole) only when it really practically falls into its lap.
The situation is delicate since if the conflict escalates further Germany might march its armies and paramilitaries into Posen/Poznań. Still, I’d say Poland should really go for the industrial region after the cores are secured. The best solution would be either not allow the plebiscite or change it’s rules (Poland made at least one VERY stupid mistake when it suggested that people from outside Upper Silesia should be allowed to vote). That being said, I’d love to read a “Silesian Wars” TL.
11. The OTL remaining German lands and Danzig/Gdansk... same, really. They wouldnt be "trouble" for Poland, no more then it already had, and Danzig/GDansk would havea real use of course - but they were ethnically German, hence it really wouldnt be "ideal".
BTW, I’m curious just what would happen if Poland actually managed to get Gdańsk/Danzig. Autonomy similar to Silesian? Direct incorporation into Pomorskie voivodeship as capital? How many Germans would leave?
Which I think is not ideal, and really, if only Bromberg remained German, then this wouldnt cut off Poland from the sea,
It would cut one of two railway lines and made it more difficult to built the Coal Trunk-Line, but true, it wouldn’t be a full cut-off. As for priorities, I’d rather have Gdańsk/Danzig than Bydgoszcz/Bromberg, but the latter is much easier to obtain.
Molobo:
The primary regions of Poland that need to be in its control are:
1-Those inhabited by largest amount of ethnic Poles, avoiding national tensions and conflict
2-areas guaranteeing strategic security of Poland
3-areas that will allow for modernization of Polish industry and infrastructure
Can’t argue with that.
The desire to avoid national minorities is of course not universal-seeking control of both Gdansk and East Prussia is essential for Polish survival-both accesses to the sea is needed, and elimination of German enclave that can engage with clear military attack thrust to Warsaw-the capital of Poland.
I can understand Gdańsk, but as I said before whole of East Prussia would be just way too troublesome.
I love the purple arrows west and south, though.
As far as I can see, the southern one is intended represent non-territorial expansion so it should be Red rather than Purple. As for the German purple arrow, yeah, unless the Entente is marching to partition Germany it’s just too much trouble.
Douglas:
I don’t understand why Kraków/Cracow is not priority 1 and why Poland should pursue colonies, but otherwise it’s rather good if bland variant.
ctesiphon:
Other than the fact that it allows a bit more eastwards expansion it’s basically similar to mine, therefore I’m inclined to agree with it.
Oh, and Dyneburg - I don't know how many Poles were there, but unless very many,
From the top of my head it was between 10% to 20%.
Crap, I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote this, sorry. Magnificate's map has northern parts of Orava and Spis, which I had in mind, included in western Galicia.
I have the same OTL borders in case of Cieszyn, should I edit it?
Nietzsche:
Why, this doesn't show my biases at all...
Not in the least. :D Of course I can’t agree with giving up Silesia or sea access. I do wonder why did you put Suwałki as lower priority than Poznań/Poznań?

As for the PoleTrolls, so far not one has appeared, so I would appreciate if we kept the jokes down.
 

Susano

Banned
Considering Lwów/Lemberg is easier to take and hold without international fuss (Since Lithuania has a higher chance of existing than Ukraine) I’d place Lwów/Lemberg higher than Wilno/Vilnus. As for the “Vilnus Corridor” north of Vilnius, it should be of much lower priority, unless Lithuania is hostile and Poland is looking to link up with Latvia and even then it I would place it at Priority 3.
How very Realpolitik of you ;) *shrugs* It seems to me there was rather support for Poland than for Lithuania in the region, so it should become part of Poland. Linking up to Latvia or containing Lithuania is incidental.

I’m tempted to agree, however I would prefer if that bufferzone consisted of buffer states rather than annexed territories.
Hm, that could work, maybe. Its difficult, of course, because buffer states can be subverted, and during a war it may be easier to simply directly take over control... but, once things have settled...

AFAIK Cieszyn/Teschen was controlled by Poland and then snatched by Chechoslovakia while Poland was distracted in the east. As I said before, it should be easy enough to keep otherwise. Then the best solution would be to actually allow the Cieszyn Silesia plebiscite. Poland had s a decent chance of winning that one and Czechs would get to keep Czech-majority areas. As for the railway, an agreement with Poland concerning it would be a nice first step towards an alliance.
Yes, seems like that would have been a good idea.

The situation is delicate since if the conflict escalates further Germany might march its armies and paramilitaries into Posen/Poznań. Still, I’d say Poland should really go for the industrial region after the cores are secured. The best solution would be either not allow the plebiscite or change it’s rules (Poland made at least one VERY stupid mistake when it suggested that people from outside Upper Silesia should be allowed to vote). That being said, I’d love to read a “Silesian Wars” TL.
That wont be much of a war, with France being able to dictate all terms...

Personally, I can see the arguments for people outside the plebiscite regions but originally born there allowing to vote, and I can see arguments against it. But bottom line is that Germany won the plebiscite, and if we really go for "optimal" and dont only mean "Poland-wank" with that... ;) Looking up the results on Wiki, it does seem difficult to draw borders based on them, though. The industrial area actually had mostly convincing German majorities (which makes sense even if we disregard the plebiscite rules: In other plebiscite areas, too, workers had a tendency to vote German), but the lands west of it did not. And if the industrial area somehow ends up as a narrow German salient, contained by Poland on all sides, well, that would have quite negative consequences economically, I think... so, its difficult...

BTW, I’m curious just what would happen if Poland actually managed to get Gdańsk/Danzig. Autonomy similar to Silesian? Direct incorporation into Pomorskie voivodeship as capital? How many Germans would leave?
Polish Upper Silesia had autonomy? As for those Polish domestic questions, though, I think you would be in a better position to know, heh. And as for German emmigration, well, seeing how complete it was in other regions... but OTOH, Danzig/Gdanks was a large city with over 3/4 Germans... maybe it would gradually dwindle away, if there is no autonomy - and call me biased, but OTL Interbellum Poland doesnt look like a likely place for that to me ;)

It would cut one of two railway lines and made it more difficult to built the Coal Trunk-Line, but true, it wouldn’t be a full cut-off. As for priorities, I’d rather have Gdańsk/Danzig than Bydgoszcz/Bromberg, but the latter is much easier to obtain.
I was talking about bothing being German, you know :p As said, infrastructure can always be newly built, which includes railroads and a new port at Gdynia. No need to sever ethnic German areas from Germany for that reason...

As for the PoleTrolls, so far not one has appeared, so I would appreciate if we kept the jokes down.
Well, ah, technically... ;)
 
How very Realpolitik of you *shrugs*
:D
It seems to me there was rather support for Poland than for Lithuania in the region, so it should become part of Poland. Linking up to Latvia or containing Lithuania is incidental.
AFAIK at the time both were considered important factors.
That wont be much of a war, with France being able to dictate all terms...
Perhaps, but then again if British, Americans and Itialians had something to say the actual Silesian Wars would be likely branded as Polish Adventurism and not supported.
But bottom line is that Germany won the plebiscite, and if we really go for "optimal" and dont only mean "Poland-wank" with that...
In case of Upper Silesia from the point of view of Poland "Poland-wank" would be "optimal" and greatly desireable. Naturally, that's not the case if we take other PoVs into account and as you said drawing fair borders in Upper Silesia is next to impossible.
Polish Upper Silesia had autonomy?
Indeed. As far as I remember it was implemented before the plebiscite as an requirement from the Minority Treaties. Autonomous Silesian Voivodeship had it's own Sejm and Treasury. Naturally there were later attempts to limit the autonomy, but until the May Coup it was relatively secure.
I was talking about bothing being German, you know
Yes. I meant that if Poland hypothetically had to choose between Danzig and Bromberg it should choose Danzig. Of course it's hard to think of a situation when that dilemma would actually take place. ;)
Well, ah, technically...
Got me here. :D Still, less jokes and more discussion is welcomed.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I personally don't think Poland desperately needs sea-access. Not when giving it sea-access is making it enemies with one of her neighbors(Lithuania or Germany). Friendly Germany is less-likely to invade twenty or so years later.
 
I have the same OTL borders in case of Cieszyn, should I edit it?

Leave it as it is IMO, if you start separating every piece of land that could be coloured differently that it's surroundings it'll be too cluttered. And if you meant joining them with the scraps that are part of West Galicia - I think the current version is better.

If Dyneburg was 10-20% Polish, stay out.
 

Susano

Banned
Really, everybody who has purple or blue arrows west, south or north (colonies!!!) has problems. What further expansion into Germany or Czechoslovakia could anybody want, let alone justify!? Especially 2. What the hell? I especially like how the western territories covered are only blue, but the westwards arrow is purple :D I can only imagine whats that supposed to mean:rolleyes: Also the blue or green Masurias. As said, 97%!

Hrm. Now, to get on the Upper Silesia debate, it seems to me that from the point of view of the people there German with Polish autonomy would be better than Polish with German autonomy, what with all the Poles who voted German due to expecting better labour laws and economical conditions etc in Germany - those would not gain much by autonomy, unless its very far ranging. But then I am very biased ;) Its a puzzle, and maybe the OTL border, even though dictated by France, and even though giving the actually clearly German voting Industrial area to Poland, wasnt so bad at all...

Also, based on admittedly only this single ethnic map I also used as basemap ;) (which has the advantage of not distorting the map by showing ethnic blobs all over the map, which can be shown as too large or too small), a conceptual map for the central and northern part of of the Polish-German border:
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb113/LightInfa/a4.gif
(and Jesus, that was a bitch to get onto photobucket. Somehow it completly refused to work for me, hence LightInfa had to upload it for me...)
Red is a more advantageous proposal for Germany, orange more moderate, and blue an attempted approximation of the OTL border. The Green lines would be extraterritorial transit routes in case of the red border scenario, the yellow lines extraterritorial transit routes in case of the orange border scenario (so the one connecting Danzig/Gdansk to Pommerania would be there in both scenarios).

Since the borders and routes are just based on its map, I guess they can all be seen as just approximations. As said, conceptual. And sorry, Wirsitz/Wyrzysk County, the connection to Bromberg/Bydgoszcz was needed, and Id rather not have the Netze/Notec be border ;)
 
6, 8 and I are going to need to have a long, long talk...

Why those and not 2? Oh, and don't be harsh, #6 has high artistic value.;)

I especially like how the western territories covered are only blue, but the westwards arrow is purple

Yeah, #2 has it in the east too, West-of-Dnipro Ukraine is green, but the area with Zhitomir is yellow. Perhaps it's "Best to throw 'em behind the Dnipro/Oder/Elbe :)eek:), but if you can't better not to go there/petty scraps are less important". In any case it would be hilarious if not for the fact that there's an actual person thinking like that, and it's not the only one.

But why is colouring Masuria green such a big sin? I know the plebiscite was won by Prussia overwhelmingly, but come on. It took place a week after the beginning of Tukhachevsky's offensive, Vilnius fell what, 3 or 4 days later. I think the Poles had the chance to get some border towns if they weren't occupied by fighting Red Russia, and especially, if vote for Poland didn't seem to be a vote for Soviet Poland. Why shouldn't they go for that? Cause after whatever towns would be in Polish hands integrating them wouldn't be a problem.
 

Susano

Banned
Perhaps it's "Best to throw 'em behind the Dnipro/Oder/Elbe :)eek:), but if you can't better not to go there/petty scraps are less important".
Yeah, thats what I figured...

But why is colouring Masuria green such a big sin? I know the plebiscite was won by Prussia overwhelmingly, but come on. It took place a week after the beginning of Tukhachevsky's offensive, Vilnius fell what, 3 or 4 days later. I think the Poles had the chance to get some border towns if they weren't occupied by fighting Red Russia, and especially, if vote for Poland didn't seem to be a vote for Soviet Poland. Why shouldn't they go for that? Cause after whatever towns would be in Polish hands integrating them wouldn't be a problem.

Because even if the Polish vote is quintupled because of no Polish-Soviet War, and even if the German vote is only a third because people not living in the region cannot vote there - even then, with those exaggerated numbers, it would still be a clear decision for Germany. You simply cant merely fault the war and the voting regulations for that! Yes, integrating those territories would still probably cause no headache, hence why I coloured it yellow and not red, but theres neither reason (its not like the territory is especially valuable) nor justification for going for it. And for that matter, it was "only" (hah) at 97% and not 98%-99% because Allenstein/Olsztyn county voted at, uh, something between 85-90% I think. Thats the best the polish vote got - but Allenstein/Olsztyn county wasnt even at the border, so annexing "some border towns" would be iffy, too.
 
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