So you've admitted that the landing will be far from orderly. All these Heer men are going to accomplish for the war effort is dying futilely against the defensive lines.
Operation Sea Lion (1974 Sandhurst Wargame)
- Thread starter Not James Stockdale
- Start date
So you've admitted that the landing will be far from orderly. All these Heer men are going to accomplish for the war effort is dying futilely against the defensive lines.
The distance at which Japanese barges supplied forward garrisons was two or three hundred miles from Rabaul. The distance from France to the UK was 20-30 miles. On the SPO run, the barges had to lay up in hiding during the day because of Allied air superiority, causing the trips to take twice as long.
The RN is engaging off Pas de Calais in daylight. The battle is on the French side of the Channel. The LW has the advantage.
So when the Luftwaffe sank 42 merchant ships and 4 destroyers in the Kanalcampf against heavy RAF opposition, you're saying the British lost 46 ships sunk and the RN withdrew its destroyers from Dover and the Channel because the RAF had the advantage?
Allied amphibious operations - at a doctrinal level - worked towards having far less risk than Axis ones. So, when the Allies invaded France in June 1944, the chances of success were near or about 100%. The German invasion of Crete maybe was about 50/50. Might have even been as low as 30/70. For the Allies, this tendency towards certainty in amphibious operations meant both that whatever landings were made almost always succeeded, and that in cases where more aggression would have paid off in landings, (Torch, Italy 1943), it was not done.
why would the RN go looking for convoys on the french side of the channel in daylight especially after the first landings.I might also point out for the LW to cover their ships the LW needs to provide cover from dawn till dusk or in other words a standing cap whereas the RAF only has to put in an appearance when they bomb or the RN wants to go hunting in the daytime.Okay they don t have to hunt as the german supply ships are anchored off the beaches waiting for the barges to return to collect the second and third echelons of the first wave.
In the event of a disorderly landing all the superior German initiative and small unit tactics will be heavily symied by the facts that:
- The troops will have no idea where they are. Even if all they had to do was march to London, there's a good chance they'd miss.
- The ships carrying the follow on waves and supplies will have no idea where they are.
nbcman
Donor
Are they? If the Germans want to land at daybreak when high tide occurs, they will be crossing the Channel at night which means neither airforce will appreciably impact the battle. The RN was trained for night actions. How well have the impressed German 'sailors' trained for night action with their 88's strapped to a barge?
EDIT: Per the USM wiki page, the German 'fleet' will be sitting offshore the landing beaches for multiple days / nights as they have left in one group:
Unless the RN tries to intercept them on S - 1, there is no need for the RN to sail closer to France unless they are chasing the German fleet remnants who are bravely running away.
Last edited:
...in which case surely it needs to involve the Spanish Inquisition?
Oh, now I see it! This will tie in with the fall of Gibraltar! Suddenly everything makes sens...
Wait! What are these men in white coats doing here?
OH NO, SOMEONE CALL THE ADMIRALTY, WE LOST FOUR DESTROYERS TO THE GERMAN INVASION EFFORT, WE BETTER PULL OUT OF THE FUCKING CHANNEL AND LET THE GERMANS LAND UNOPPOSED!!!!!
First thing for Sealion is getting ashore, then the supply becomes a requirement. You are acknowledging from this argument that it can get ashore, correct? Because otherwise, how could you be suggesting that German logistics were inadequate to win the post-invasion supply battle at the beachhead where there was no invasion and no beachhead?
In the Norwegian campaign, AFAIK, none of the German invasion transports were intercepted by RN forces prior to debarkation. This battle was further from RN bases, but none is still not very good. Off Crete the RN forces managed to sink about a dozen barques in one convoy, causing 300 casualties. Another group, Force C contacted a second convoy in daylight, but declined battle for fear of air attacks. So, overall, for the loss of 9 warships and another 17 damaged, and about a dozen barques sunk. In once case a barge from the first convoy was sighted and a destroyer, (HMS Greyhound) split off from the formation to sink it. While it was doing so, JU-87's pounced on it and sank it in minutes. Warships under air attack that broke AA formation to engage surface targets left themselves considerably more vulnerable to air attack - the same thing happened for Kurita off Samar when he ordered general chase. But, warships that kept AA (tight ring) formation were considerably less effective in surface engagements.
The RAF defeated the LW over London. The Sealion battle happens off Pas de Calais.
The Sealion battle would happen in the English Channel and the LW would still get its butt handed to it.
Well I believe it. The Royal Navy had a strong reputation for avoiding battle, especially its destroyer captains. Nelson notoriously had to egg on his captains to get their ships alongside the enemy because they were about to turn tail and run. Warburton-Lee's equally famous last signal to his fleet was "For God's sake stop engaging the enemy."
And then of course there's Glowworm frantically trying to get back home to mother England before being mercilessly ridden down by Hipper.
I mean, it could be a disorderly landing if you prefer, but I don't know how that helps your case.
Yes, all the best campaigns in military history began with somebody saying, "Let's just attack first and figure out logistics later."
Deleted member 94680
It all makes sense now.
The references to the battle being fought on the French side of the Channel
The references to coastal convoys around the Pas de Calais
The references to the D-Day logistics
The plan is to carry out a Sealion on...
ALLIED OCCUPIED NORMANDY!
Genius!
The references to the battle being fought on the French side of the Channel
The references to coastal convoys around the Pas de Calais
The references to the D-Day logistics
The plan is to carry out a Sealion on...
ALLIED OCCUPIED NORMANDY!
Genius!
RodentRevolution
Banned
You know all you are proving is that you have not read one of the more detailed accounts of the German plans that is oft cited here?
For carrying out the first landing, advance companies with a total strength of 8,520 men were formed, and these were to be embarked in warships of the escort forces.
Page 49, German Plans for the Invasion of England, 1940 Operation "SEALION"
Seriously Glenn read about the actual German plan.