Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

@Lascaris is the British brigade of Constantinople still in the Queen of Cities or has it been relocated to the Macedonian front? I can see the British surrenderring Constantinople to the Turks and pressing the Greeks hard to offer some territory to the Turks, although I can't imagine Dragoumis accepting that.

There would likely be a pretty strong element in the Foreign Office, not to mention the Conservative party advocating that. After all there were people in the Foreign Office in 1941 proposing that Greece should cede Thrace to Bulgaria to secure her neutrality, while there was always a reasonably strong pro-Turkish element within the conservatives since Ottoman days. Add to this the sultan still being caliph. On the other hand Churchill would not be exactly impressed by yet more appeasement, neither would be the British public. For that matter the notion would be playing hell with the US public at the very time the Lend Lease act is being passed.

On the Turkish side the end goal is the Misak-i-Milli, which involves quite a bit more than Constantinople alone or even territorial adjustments in Asia Minor...


Military wise the British probably consider Constantinople undefendable with good reason. The Greeks may realistically agree on the other hand Constantinople is Constantinople...
 
Part 69 Winning while dead...
London, February 18th, 1941

Winston Churchill seemed slightly amused as the Foreign Office mandarin tried to explain why he should give serious consideration to the Turkish ultimatum delivered by Tevfik Rustu Aras a few hours before. Anthony Eden and Alexander Cadogan, the permanent under-secretary of the Foreign Office also in the office were saying nothing.

"So to get things straight, Mr Aras, I understand in the last war he was mostly involved with disposing of the bodies of massacred Armenians, has given us 48 hours to accept surrendering Constantinople, Asiatic Greece, Thrace and Cyprus on pain of war. You suggest that I give serious consideration to the proposal, with the possible exception of Cyprus, where the Colonial Office is likely to object."

"Yes sir. We are not giving up any British territory, it is the considered opinion of many in the foreign office that we were too harsh with the Turks in the last war, besides we cannot hold it in the first place. Agreeing to the Turkish demands, costs us little, keeps them out of the war and creates the basis for an improved relationship in the future. The Greeks are likely to object of course but if we agree they'll follow suit, they can't do otherwise."

"Right. I have only a single question for you. What would Mr Venizelos had said?"

The FO man nearly visibly winced. The late Greek statesman had been wildly popular with the British public since the 1910s, even more so than he had been back in his own country. And the "greatest Greek statesman since the days of Pericles" as his British fans called him had been anything but shy about wielding his influence to the benefit of his country often making life difficult for the FO. "Sir? I'm afraid I don't follow you" he only said.

"Let me enlighten you then. The late M. Venizelos observed that in all her wars England he should have said Britain, of course always wins one battle the last. And back during th last war when it was proposed to him that Greece should abandon Serbia he said that Greece was too small to do such dishonesty. Neither shall do the British Empire such dishonesty at the very time Greece stands and fights on our side."

Rupel pass, February 18th, 1941

Two battalions of the 72nd Infanterie Division had managed to close on the forts only to be stopped by ruinous casualties. When night came a Greek counterattack had cleared them out with often at bayonet point. But the commanders of the XXX Armeekorps and the Bulgarian 1st army were persistent people. Their men would attack again at first dawn no matter the casualties.

Constantinople, February 19th, 1941

The train was filled to the brim with soldiers of the 85th brigade going west. It's commander looked his counterpart of the Greek XXIII Infantry division with something akin to pity. "You understand my good fellow that you stand no chance to hold. You wouldn't even if you didn't have to detach forces to Gallipoli and the Marmara coast and your men were not green recruits. Not to mention you are weakening your own defences north. You should not have refused the orders of the High Commisioner declaring Constantinople an open city." He shrugged. "Either way best of luck. For what its worth."

By midday the British high commissioner would be off the city along with the last British soldiers. Not an hour would pass before the Greek high commissioner and patriarch Chrysanthus II would raise the Greek flag and proclaim the union of the queen of cities with Greece...

Philadepheia (Alasehir), February 20th, 1941

The Turks had been scrupulous about observing the 48 hours of their ultimatum to the allies. The moment it expired 488 guns from massive K39 210mm siege guns to 75mm mountain guns opened up at the Greek border fortifications, as the 12 divisions of the 1st Turkish army under Fahrettin Altay charged forward. The Greeks had managed to complete 11 forts in the Hermus river valley between the Temnus (Simav) and Tmolus (Boz) mountain ranges , it was obvious to both sides that this was the main avenue of approach to Smyrna but Fahrettin had slighlty over 285,000 men and 100 LT35 tanks facing 125,000 Greeks. Further to the north 9 more divisions of the 2nd Army were attacking towards Panormos (Bandirma) and Palaiokastron (Balikesir) with another 4 in the Marmara region assigned to attack Thrace and Constantinople. The Turkish underground army in Constantinople was already rising up...

Macedonian front, February 22nd, 1941

Monastir fell to the 9th Panzer division. The German XL Panzer Corps and the Italian 2nd army, with the Centauro and Littorio armoured divisions, 3 Celere and 4 Alpini divisions had struck south into the Monastir gap against the Greek A Army corps and the Polish corps, 7 divisions in total that had soon been reinforced by the Anzacs. The allies had been pushed back but had failed to disintegrate as anticipated despite the Stukas and the panzers. Further to the east in the Vardar valley the story was similar. The XLI Panzer corps along the Bulgarian 4th army had struck at Demir Kapija while XVIII Mountain corps along the Bulgarian 5th army attacked at Strumica towards Doiran. The Greeks and Yugoslavs defending the sector and Bethouart's Free French that had rushed to their aid were losing ground and taking heavy casualties but kept fighting, 2nd Panzer had even been given a bloody nose when it had tried rushing the Greek 2nd armoured cavalry division at Doiran, the Germans were veterans but for a change so had been their opponents. Still the German advance didn't so any signs of slowing down.

Asia Minor, February 24th, 1941

Palaiokastron, became again Balikesir as the Turkish army captured it, or liberated it depending on who was doing the narrative. In the east much to the general shock Fahrettin had managed to break through the Greek border fortifications and captured Philadelpheia. Both corps of the army of Asia Minor were now slowly retreating towards the Smyrna fortified area, a mass of civilian refugees fleeing ahead of them.

Epirus front, February 25th, 1941

Korytza, fell to the Italian 7th army. Argyrokastron already fallen on the 23rd. The 128,000 Greeks of B corps were severely outnumbered, by now there were 20 Italian divisions and nearly 400,000 men on the front but had still inflicted twice as many casualties on the Italians. Perhaps relatively modest reinforcements would had sufficed to hold back the Italians. But these were nowhere to be found, or at least Pangalos was refusing to provide them which amounted to the same thing. Of course given how Florina had just fallen to the Germans and Italians, it would had been complete folly not to retreat in Epirus...

East Africa, February 25th, 1941

Mogadishu fell to the Allies.

Rupel pass, February 28th, 1941

Fort Rupel, the last of the 13 forts covering East Macedonia and Western Thrace finally fell after eleven days of fighting. Breaking the fortified line hadn't been cheap, combined German and Bulgarian casualties run to nearly 16,000 men but as the German XXX Corps turned west after the allied army in Central Macedonia and the Bulgarian 1st army west to flank the Greek fortifications in Eastern Thrace, North Greece had been cut in half.

Sardeis (Salihli), March 1st, 1941

Fahrettin's army entered the town. Advancing 70 km in 10 days wasn't bad but wasn't exceptional either. Of course there was a question whether Fahrettin was being delayed by the Greeks, his own supply problems or a desire to bring as many refugees as possible in Smyrna...

Thessaloniki, March 3rd, 1941

The 2nd Panzer division entered the city, to the sullen welcome of the Christin and Jewish inhabitants. Allied armies were in full retreat to the west of the city towards the Olympus with the two Greek cavalry divisions, the 2nd Yugoslav cavalry division and the Free French covering the retreat, as combat engineers demolished bridges over the Axios, then the Loudias, then the Aliakmon and sacrificial detachments had been left behind to gain time on more than one occasion. It would take the Germans five more days to reach Katerini and the Olympus, by then surviving allied units would be behind the passes both in the east and in Western Macedonia where the Germans and Italians in Western Macedonia would be threatening Sarandaporo and Greveva.

Kalpaki, Epirus, March 5th, 1941


The advancing Italian troops were met by heavy artillery fire and local counterattacks. The Greeks were done retreating. Any further ground would not come for free...

Thrace, March 6th, 1941


Adrianople fell to the Bulgarians. Even after the defences of Eastern Thrace had been flanked, reducing the so called Thrace line had proven both time consuming and very costly for the Bulgarian army. The only comfort of shorts was that the Turks in Constantinople had found themselves having to reduce the Greeks and the Armenians that had joined them virtually house by house, even though the only outside support was a handful of air raids, the Allied air forces had their hands full trying to keep the Luftwaffe off the backs of Allied troops on the ground and taking a pounding to achieve this against an enemy with three times as many aircraft, the defenders did not seem to show any sign of willing to surrender. This was costing time and lives and had kept the Turk from grabbing much of Thrace ahead of their ostensible allies...
 
It would be fun to see the Bulgarians take Constantinople just for the drama between them and Turkey.
And the retreat to a far superior defensive position is made. Now is time to hold. I am worried a bit to be honest. TTL German invasion has began 2 weeks earlier or 6 weeks for Greece. The Allies made a good show there but were still pushed back. Can they keep their new positions? Will the British send more troops, although now with the cutting of the front size you don't need as many troops. When will Lend Lease aid shipments arrive? I'm so anxious to know!
 
It would be fun to see the Bulgarians take Constantinople just for the drama between them and Turkey.
And the retreat to a far superior defensive position is made. Now is time to hold. I am worried a bit to be honest. TTL German invasion has began 2 weeks earlier or 6 weeks for Greece. The Allies made a good show there but were still pushed back. Can they keep their new positions? Will the British send more troops, although now with the cutting of the front size you don't need as many troops. When will Lend Lease aid shipments arrive? I'm so anxious to know!
And what are the butterflies concerning the Soviet Union?
 
I expect the Turkish economy to go into freefall in coming months. The Axis would not be able to supply them and I expect an invasion from Syria too.
 
I am surprised it only took a fortnight for the Macedonian front to be broken by the Axis although with significant losses. Now the mountain passes protecting central Greece need to hold on at all costs.
Smyrna may be able to hold on as a pocket resupplied by sea, the city's geography favorus defense with mountains on two sides and the sea on another.

I wouldn't be surprised if post-war there is a straightening of the Greco-Bulgarian border around Kardzhali in the Rhodopes to make the border easier to defend for Greece and protect Thrace. Turkey will be the biggest loser here, likely losing some territories to Greece and facing the prospect of a communist regime.
 
North Greece had been cut in half.
The only available option for the greek units east of the breach is to retreat as fast as possible to Alexandroupolis. It is fortunate that Alexandroupolis is connected with rail and can be quickly reached. A major sea lift will be necessary since part of the civilian population will try to flee as well the advancing Bulgarians.

I suspect the Germans may install an occupation zone of their own in Thrace, between the turkish and bulgarian ones, in order to avoid any unfortunate clashes between their allies. That would actually be fortunate for the civilian population, since I suspect occupation by the Wehrmacht will be milder than the turkish and bulgarian ones. After all, in OTL the Italians executed some 9,000 Greeks, the Germans 21,000 and the Bulgarians around 40,000 even though they controlled much less territory than the Germans and Italians.

The advancing Italian troops were met by heavy artillery fire and local counterattacks. The Greeks were done retreating. Any further ground would not come for free...

And I expect them to hold the Kalpaki-Kalamas river line.
 
The 1941 Fall of Constantinople is going to be a very bloody and sad affair, just like the 1204 and 1453 ones, but with media coverage. I imagine there will be a few American correspondants...
The interesting part is about the army forces detached to Gallipoli, has the Greek fleet entered the Sea of Marmara? Or are they waiting just outside of the Dardanelles? I hope we'll see at least one large naval battle between the Hellenic Navy and the Turkish Navy.

Of course given how Florina had just fallen to the Germans and Italians, it would had been complete folly not to retreat in Epirus...
Pun intended for Papagos IOTL I imagine!

The Macedonian Front had been active for quite a long time before the Germans attacked, so it has not broken in just a forthnight. IOTL it took a lot less time to break, but of course that had smt to do with the Yugoslavian total collapse and the meagre Allied forces defending the front.

I wonder what are the Soviets thinking right now.
 
I was a bit surprised the Turks didn't include Mossul in their list of demands, since they were likely not expecting the British to seriously cave in.

Now, I'm waiting to see how will go the Syrian front. There, both Turks and Allies have a railroad to follow one direction or another.
Besides, I'm almost finished reading James Barr's A line in the sand, and I'm curious to see how this front will impact the post war political settlement in the region. First thing obviously, with the Levant siding with the Free French right from the start and without the stain of Mers el Kebir, the circumstances of the British arm-twisting the Free French into conceding elections and eventually independence are butterflied. But now, unlike OTL, there is an actual immediate threat and frontline in the Levant, so there will have to be concessions to Arab chieftains and nationalists, lest the Allies fight in a hostile country if these people sided with the Turks.
 
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I was a bit surprised the Turks didn't include Mossul in their list of demands, since they were likely not expecting the British to seriously cave in.

Now, I'm waiting to see how will go the Syrian front. There, both Turks and Allies have a railroad to follow one direction or another.
Besides, I'm almost finished reading James Barr's A line in the sand, and I'm curious to see how this front will impact the post war political settlement in the region. First thing obviously, with the Levant siding with the Free French right from the start and without the stain of Mers el Kebir, the circumstances of the British arm-twisting the Free French into conceding elections and eventually independence are butterflied. But now, unlike OTL, there is an actual immediate threat and frontline in the Levant, so there will have to be concessions to Arab chieftains and nationalists, lest the Allies fight in a hostile country if these people sided with the Turks.
Is it possible that Britain will cede Kuwait to iraq? And i think the British will drop some soe agents in kurdstan to cause some trouble
 
Turkey has just slit its own throat--it just doesn't know it yet...
But why? Germany has conquered France and is bombing Britain in her islands. What can possibly go wrong? :angel:
It would be fun to see the Bulgarians take Constantinople just for the drama between them and Turkey.
And the retreat to a far superior defensive position is made. Now is time to hold. I am worried a bit to be honest. TTL German invasion has began 2 weeks earlier or 6 weeks for Greece. The Allies made a good show there but were still pushed back. Can they keep their new positions? Will the British send more troops, although now with the cutting of the front size you don't need as many troops. When will Lend Lease aid shipments arrive? I'm so anxious to know!
Lend Lease has not yet been signed into law. The first likely deliveries of American arms to Greece is a handful of fighter aircraft in May. By then it may or may not be too late.
And what are the butterflies concerning the Soviet Union?
For the obvious ones Kars and Ardahan are Soviet and a larger number of Pontic Greeks has emigrated from the Soviet Union to Greece. For ones noticed Vladimir Triandafillov is alive and Boris Pasternak is not. For one not apparently noticed see part 50...

Also debating with myself how comrade Polikarpov's toy making is affected by butterflies. Proposals both for this and others welcome.

I expect the Turkish economy to go into freefall in coming months. The Axis would not be able to supply them and I expect an invasion from Syria too.
The British blockade will certainly not be exactly helpful...

Very good TL.
I am a bit worried about civilian treatment by the Turks in Constantinople and other occupied zones. Turkey hasn't a good record regarding civilians.
No comment...
To be honest the occupation of ttl greece is going to be worse than otl...
Yes, no, we shall see. :angel:

I am surprised it only took a fortnight for the Macedonian front to be broken by the Axis although with significant losses. Now the mountain passes protecting central Greece need to hold on at all costs.
Hmm? It took the Germans 14 days to reach Thessaloniki, OTL they had reached it in 4. And 19 to get to the Olympus, in OTL they were fighting at Thermopylae by this point. The allies have failed to stop the Axis attack but the the Axis advance has been significantly slower so far...

Smyrna may be able to hold on as a pocket resupplied by sea, the city's geography favorus defense with mountains on two sides and the sea on another.
Smyrna has been very heavily fortified exactly with that prospect in mind. Of course when initially planned, 1000 Luftwaffe aircraft bombing anything in sight wasn't part of the plan...

I wouldn't be surprised if post-war there is a straightening of the Greco-Bulgarian border around Kardzhali in the Rhodopes to make the border easier to defend for Greece and protect Thrace. Turkey will be the biggest loser here, likely losing some territories to Greece and facing the prospect of a communist regime.
In OTL Greece did demand border adjustments in 1946. By this point the cold war had begun and Bulgaria had Soviet and Yugoslav backing of course...
The only available option for the greek units east of the breach is to retreat as fast as possible to Alexandroupolis. It is fortunate that Alexandroupolis is connected with rail and can be quickly reached. A major sea lift will be necessary since part of the civilian population will try to flee as well the advancing Bulgarians.
An interesting proposition... in the face of enemy air superiority.

I suspect the Germans may install an occupation zone of their own in Thrace, between the turkish and bulgarian ones, in order to avoid any unfortunate clashes between their allies. That would actually be fortunate for the civilian population, since I suspect occupation by the Wehrmacht will be milder than the turkish and bulgarian ones. After all, in OTL the Italians executed some 9,000 Greeks, the Germans 21,000 and the Bulgarians around 40,000 even though they controlled much less territory than the Germans and Italians.
Exact numbers are problematic, for certain population was down to ~6.8 million in 1944 from 7.344 in the October 1940 census...

The 1941 Fall of Constantinople is going to be a very bloody and sad affair, just like the 1204 and 1453 ones, but with media coverage. I imagine there will be a few American correspondants...
Nearly certainly... what was done by American correspondents in Warsaw in 1939?
The interesting part is about the army forces detached to Gallipoli, has the Greek fleet entered the Sea of Marmara? Or are they waiting just outside of the Dardanelles? I hope we'll see at least one large naval battle between the Hellenic Navy and the Turkish Navy.
956 Luftwaffe, 752 Regia Aeronautica, 298 Bulgarian, 360 THK aircraft... going into the straits is probably... counterproductive.


Pun intended for Papagos IOTL I imagine!

The Macedonian Front had been active for quite a long time before the Germans attacked, so it has not broken in just a forthnight. IOTL it took a lot less time to break, but of course that had smt to do with the Yugoslavian total collapse and the meagre Allied forces defending the front.
It has taken the Germans nearly three weeks to reach the Olympus... not too shabby a performance.

I wonder what are the Soviets thinking right now.
Likely sitting tight and hopping the last German kills of the last Brit then falls over and dies.
I was a bit surprised the Turks didn't include Mossul in their list of demands, since they were likely not expecting the British to seriously cave in.

Now, I'm waiting to see how will go the Syrian front. There, both Turks and Allies have a railroad to follow one direction or another.
The old Baghdad railway is running parallel to the border and on the Syrian side of it. Then you have the old Hajaz railway...

Besides, I'm almost finished reading James Barr's A line in the sand, and I'm curious to see how this front will impact the post war political settlement in the region. First thing obviously, with the Levant siding with the Free French right from the start and without the stain of Mers el Kebir, the circumstances of the British arm-twisting the Free French into conceding elections and eventually independence are butterflied. But now, unlike OTL, there is an actual immediate threat and frontline in the Levant, so there will have to be concessions to Arab chieftains and nationalists, lest the Allies fight in a hostile country if these people sided with the Turks.
The French (and the Turks) have already messed up things quite a bit by this point. The 1925 revolt was much worse with Turkish tacit support to the Syrian nationalists and even more prominent French support to the Alawis, the Kurds and the Maronites. So the French could make concessions to the Sunnis in Syria... but that would be directly antagonizing the groups that are directly supporting them and provide a disproportionate part of local troops at the moment.
 
How do we say "Please give me the popcorn" in Russian? :closedeyesmile:
Пожалуйста дайте мне попкорн ;-)

Post-war, the Soviet Union could obtain all of its OTL claims from 1946.
973px-Soviet_territorial_claims_against_Turkey_1945-1953.png

Not exactly a small chunk of territory, but one which also presents significant opportunities for the Soviet Union, especially with population transfers.
For example, all Armenians living in Azerbaijan and in the Karabakh could be repatriated into Western Armenia to repopulate it (I wonder what Armenia population is like TTL given its larger territory). The Soviet Union could even join Nakhchivan with Azerbaijan directly and transfer Sunak Armenians westwards.
A large Russian minority could also be settled in the new territories to further entrench control.

In a way this could make things better than OTL and reduce tensions across the region. On the other hand, things could be even worse than OTL with Turkish revanchism added into the mixture. A post communist Turkey without any democratic traditions and history to fall back on, no matter how slim like OTL. Could very well become a violent ultranationalist state bent on revenge. You thought OTL Erdogan's Turkey was bad, well how about a grey wolves led one which a Milosevic Serbia analogue TTL.
 
A favourable reference to the devil, that's one thing for Churchill or even FDR, but such a big step so close to the oil fields of northern Iraq?
 
Given what happened with the Crimean Tatars ..................................................................................................................................................we can see something similar with the Arzebillans, Chechens and Russian Tatars.
 
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