The point is that the Turkish side is approaching the point were making a separate peace is the optimal strategy. And it is hard for me to see how Stalin will not welcome it if a) he gets what he wants in the East (the Erzurum gate) b) can use this to block any Wallies control of the Straits. I another name Soviet and Turkish interests are slowly intercepting.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I very much agree on the turkish armistice! It makes perfect sense.
That's very true! However, the vital difference to OTL is that the Greco-Turkish War turned out a greek salvation and not a catastrophe. There is no 1922 "betrayal" by the Allies, no collective trauma. Instead, Britain was the power that supported greek territorial ambitions and provided the arms for the final victory. Afterwards, there was no 1931 Cypriot Revolt. Even in WW2, Greece never fell and Commonwealth troops were important in holding Thermopylae, while the Royal Navy would bring convoy after convoy in Pireaus to feed a hungry Athens. Overall, I think that the butterflies unleased have created quite a different relationship.
That's very true! However, the vital difference to OTL is that the Greco-Turkish War turned out a greek salvation and not a catastrophe. There is no 1922 "betrayal" by the Allies, no collective trauma. Instead, Britain was the power that supported greek territorial ambitions and provided the arms for the final victory. Afterwards, there was no 1931 Cypriot Revolt. Even in WW2, Greece never fell and Commonwealth troops were important in holding Thermopylae, while the Royal Navy would bring convoy after convoy in Pireaus to feed a hungry Athens. Overall, I think that the butterflies unleased have created quite a different relationship.
Hmm. I could see Constantinople/,Istanbul as a Free City and as the UN seat in this timeline. That might indeed preclude future attempts to take it.
The Çırağan Palace had burned down in 1910, with it's gardens being used as a football stadium for a pretty long time, until in OTL it was restored as luxury suites and restaurants for a hotel that was built in the garden. Before it had burned down the palace was used by the Ottoman Parliament for a short time.
So restoring the palace and building new buildings in the garden could work for a UN Headquarters.
Thought I find it unlikely. Constantinople might be internationalized as a free city for some time like Trieste but like it I don't think it would last and UN HQ would most likely still be in New York.
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I am not sure. It could work ala Singapore. Especially if the Security council runs it. Major Powers are weird in that way. For dome small pet projects they are more than happy to make them work.
What about the population of the City though? They have a say on how things go. If the Turks and Greeks don't get along ala OTL Cyprus things could go really bad. Especially as Greece and Turkey have responsibility in their eyes to protect their compatriots.
Well, the Americans were shaping the post-war world according to their vision and their influence. Having the UN HQ in NY and the IMF HQ in DC were important aspects of that policy. I can see for example having the UN HQ in Boston or Philly but never outside the States. That would require an incredibly different american policy making.
Well, I think that is probable that, if already the fate of Constantinople wasn't discussed, that it will be discussed in the next/incoming TTL Interallied Leaders meetings/conferences.
But, I think,too, that should be taken into account, that should it to happen, through a conventional offensive in either of the below described ways, it wouldn't be the 'Greek Army', but the Allies Armies.
Cause, IIRC at this stage, in the Balkan and Anatolian fronts all of the allied army units are under a single central Allied command and are operating combined with each other according to the operational needs
Would be possible that given the above noted situation that Athens, would decide anyways to attempt to at least, to get a say in the former imperial capital future or even that, to as noted above to present a fait accomply... And if so, perhaps, (if would be reached some sort of agreement with London and/or Washington), and able to get the political will for divert the necessary material and manpower resources... The Greek leaderships, would think to attempt to bypass the Bulgarians-Germans and the Ottoman defenses, with their own Market Garden like operation, targeting Constantinople...
Have the UN hq in Philadelphia, Ionia, Greece lmao. Seriously tho yeah the price of the US coming into this war is basically America leading the rest of the free world.
On Constantinople tho I defo see something like the the Wallies launching an invasion of Constantinople to cut off Turkish supplies to isolate Anatolian turkey from the rest of the axis. The main problem is that they'd basically have to do Gallipoli like WWI because there's no way the Hellespont isn't filled with anti naval and anti air defences to prevent this exact scenario from happening.
Well, IMO, if the Hellespont, would be raised in the Allies targets priorities, then, I'd suppose that if at least some meaningful fractions, of the air power being actually directed against Ploiesti, would be redirected towards, then I don't think, at difference to WWI, would be so much trouble to deal with it...
Part 133
Vlore, October 15th, 1943
The Greek army pushed the German defenders out of the port. The fighting in Albania was nearly forgotten, with the spotlight in the battle for Thessaloniki. But for the men fighting there it wasn't any less vicious...
North-Western Iran, October 20th, 1943
Khoy was liberated by the Iranian army. Coordination with the Soviets still left a lot to be desired, but the Iranians were still able to take advantage of the fighting between the Soviet and Turkish armies to advance themselves.
Thessaloniki, October 23rd, 1943
Colonel Mordechai Frizis, begun raising the Greek flag over the White Tower under the cheers of the crowd. The city was still smoldering in places after two weeks of fighting and even more of Allied air bombing, but it was finally free, facing attach from the west, the east and revolt within had proven too much for the Germans and Bulgarians who where retreating towards Doiran and the Strymon river in disarray with three Allied armored divisions at their heels. His 54th Infantry Regiment, of the I Greek Infantry division had been among the first to enter the city, which had been actually the first unit was the subject of hot debate given the rather chaotic last few days of fighting. General Sarafis IX Infantry Division was supposed to parade through Nikis avenue all the way to the Tower in a few minutes. Given its composition, aside from replacements the men of all three regiments came from Thessaloniki, back to liberate their city after two and a half years, he had his doubts the soldiers would not be mobbed by the crowds on the street.
Thessaloniki, October 24th, 1943
The British general looked at the hanging bodies in SS uniforms. This part of the city had been stormed by Ares partisans three days ago. The Eizantzgruppe men captured red handed had not fared very well.
"You are not going to do anything about it?"
Theoderos Pangalos looked unperturbed, while the third member of the small party Ares Makedon, bristled. "Makedon you have something to comment?"
"This one was caught raping a girl, these three were shooting unarmed civilians. This one", now irony dripped from his voice, "is Alois Brunner the bastard responsible for the carnage of the city. So sure. We captured them, sent them to military tribunal, I'll remind you this is a unit of the Hellenic army, and strung the bastards sky-high for multiple counts of murder, rape, looting and arson. Do you have a problem about it, Englishman?"
"Let me note, I fully stand by the actions of my officers, if they delayed to wait for us to reach the city, these criminals might have escaped. And neither I nor my government have the slightest intention of letting people responsible for massacring our civilians go unpunished."
Thessaloniki, October 25th, 1943
Brigadeführer Fritz Freitag, sullenly looked at his captors. The damn Greeks had just thrown together some barbed wire and penned him and his men inside, with machine guns trained on them and had taken their time before processing them. Now that he had been finally brought before an officer, a lowly lieutenant at that he was ready to make some very scathing complaints, this was no way to treat a general. Then he noticed the unit patch in the lieutenant's uniform with the all too prominent blue Magen David and the crossed swords and thought better and said nothing.
The intelligence officer, also looked at the captive and his eyes widened just that little bit at the sight of the SS runes and the brigadier insignia. Since 50th regiment, not without reason nicknamed the Cohen regiment by the rest of the army, had gotten back to their city it had been a complete horror story. He had been one of the lucky ones, his family had been closed in the Kalamaria ghetto where the uprising had begun, the rebels joined by guerillas and Sacred Band commandos had beaten back all attacks against them. And thus his family had survived. But elsewhere in the city over 15,000 Jews were missing and nearly 9,000 had apparently been massacred in cold blood.
"To the separate camp for suspects of war crimes." he simply said as a pair of military policemen grabbed the SS man and carried him away.
Ukraine, October 25th, 1943
Dnipropetrovsk was liberated by the Soviet army.
Georgia, October 28th, 1943
The Soviet army liberated Batum.
Doiran, Macedonia, October 30th, 1943
The Allied advance in Macedonia came to a halt as Bulgarian and German forces, reinforced by two more German divisions managed to hold on a line broadly from lake Ohrid, to Prilep, to Doiran, to the Kerdylia mountains to the sea. For veterans of the previous war on both sides this line looked distinctly familiar in was not much different from that of the Salonica front. Since the start of the Allied offensive nearly ten weeks earlier the Germans and Bulgarians had suffered grievously having lost about 63,000 and 68,000 men respectively. But this had not come cheaply for the Allies who had lost over 88,000 men themselves without counting the losses of the Greek army of the interior in Thessaloniki or the nearly 21,000 men the Italians units in Macedonia who had refused to surrender had lost to the Germans. Coupled with extensive damage to infrastructure, Allied forces in the theater would need quite some time to rebuild and resume the offensive.
Caucasus, November 5th, 1943
The Soviet Transcaucasus front was stopped just over the Turkish-Soviet border. Between Turkish and German reinforcements, increasingly bad weather and difficult terrain it had taken the Soviets almost two weeks to advance the 50 km west of Sarikamis. It had taken the Soviets 43,000 men and six weeks, to liberate nearly the entire territory occupied by the Turkish army since 1942, inflicting nearly 100,000 casualties on the defenders. The Iranians, attacking in parallel with the Soviets had been also able to nearly reach the pre-war border but had suffered over 8,000 men in doing so. But by now the Turkish army general staff could expect something of a respite. Despite the massive casualties it had been able to halt the Greeks just short of Usak, the Soviets on the border and the British north of Diyarbakir. And with winter coming, mud was also coming and the country's road network would become nearly impassable in many areas. Between December and the spring resuming the offensives would be difficult to put it mildly, giving the Turkish army much needed time to rebuild and prepare...
The Greek army pushed the German defenders out of the port. The fighting in Albania was nearly forgotten, with the spotlight in the battle for Thessaloniki. But for the men fighting there it wasn't any less vicious...
North-Western Iran, October 20th, 1943
Khoy was liberated by the Iranian army. Coordination with the Soviets still left a lot to be desired, but the Iranians were still able to take advantage of the fighting between the Soviet and Turkish armies to advance themselves.
Thessaloniki, October 23rd, 1943
Colonel Mordechai Frizis, begun raising the Greek flag over the White Tower under the cheers of the crowd. The city was still smoldering in places after two weeks of fighting and even more of Allied air bombing, but it was finally free, facing attach from the west, the east and revolt within had proven too much for the Germans and Bulgarians who where retreating towards Doiran and the Strymon river in disarray with three Allied armored divisions at their heels. His 54th Infantry Regiment, of the I Greek Infantry division had been among the first to enter the city, which had been actually the first unit was the subject of hot debate given the rather chaotic last few days of fighting. General Sarafis IX Infantry Division was supposed to parade through Nikis avenue all the way to the Tower in a few minutes. Given its composition, aside from replacements the men of all three regiments came from Thessaloniki, back to liberate their city after two and a half years, he had his doubts the soldiers would not be mobbed by the crowds on the street.
Thessaloniki, October 24th, 1943
The British general looked at the hanging bodies in SS uniforms. This part of the city had been stormed by Ares partisans three days ago. The Eizantzgruppe men captured red handed had not fared very well.
"You are not going to do anything about it?"
Theoderos Pangalos looked unperturbed, while the third member of the small party Ares Makedon, bristled. "Makedon you have something to comment?"
"This one was caught raping a girl, these three were shooting unarmed civilians. This one", now irony dripped from his voice, "is Alois Brunner the bastard responsible for the carnage of the city. So sure. We captured them, sent them to military tribunal, I'll remind you this is a unit of the Hellenic army, and strung the bastards sky-high for multiple counts of murder, rape, looting and arson. Do you have a problem about it, Englishman?"
"Let me note, I fully stand by the actions of my officers, if they delayed to wait for us to reach the city, these criminals might have escaped. And neither I nor my government have the slightest intention of letting people responsible for massacring our civilians go unpunished."
Thessaloniki, October 25th, 1943
Brigadeführer Fritz Freitag, sullenly looked at his captors. The damn Greeks had just thrown together some barbed wire and penned him and his men inside, with machine guns trained on them and had taken their time before processing them. Now that he had been finally brought before an officer, a lowly lieutenant at that he was ready to make some very scathing complaints, this was no way to treat a general. Then he noticed the unit patch in the lieutenant's uniform with the all too prominent blue Magen David and the crossed swords and thought better and said nothing.
The intelligence officer, also looked at the captive and his eyes widened just that little bit at the sight of the SS runes and the brigadier insignia. Since 50th regiment, not without reason nicknamed the Cohen regiment by the rest of the army, had gotten back to their city it had been a complete horror story. He had been one of the lucky ones, his family had been closed in the Kalamaria ghetto where the uprising had begun, the rebels joined by guerillas and Sacred Band commandos had beaten back all attacks against them. And thus his family had survived. But elsewhere in the city over 15,000 Jews were missing and nearly 9,000 had apparently been massacred in cold blood.
"To the separate camp for suspects of war crimes." he simply said as a pair of military policemen grabbed the SS man and carried him away.
Ukraine, October 25th, 1943
Dnipropetrovsk was liberated by the Soviet army.
Georgia, October 28th, 1943
The Soviet army liberated Batum.
Doiran, Macedonia, October 30th, 1943
The Allied advance in Macedonia came to a halt as Bulgarian and German forces, reinforced by two more German divisions managed to hold on a line broadly from lake Ohrid, to Prilep, to Doiran, to the Kerdylia mountains to the sea. For veterans of the previous war on both sides this line looked distinctly familiar in was not much different from that of the Salonica front. Since the start of the Allied offensive nearly ten weeks earlier the Germans and Bulgarians had suffered grievously having lost about 63,000 and 68,000 men respectively. But this had not come cheaply for the Allies who had lost over 88,000 men themselves without counting the losses of the Greek army of the interior in Thessaloniki or the nearly 21,000 men the Italians units in Macedonia who had refused to surrender had lost to the Germans. Coupled with extensive damage to infrastructure, Allied forces in the theater would need quite some time to rebuild and resume the offensive.
Caucasus, November 5th, 1943
The Soviet Transcaucasus front was stopped just over the Turkish-Soviet border. Between Turkish and German reinforcements, increasingly bad weather and difficult terrain it had taken the Soviets almost two weeks to advance the 50 km west of Sarikamis. It had taken the Soviets 43,000 men and six weeks, to liberate nearly the entire territory occupied by the Turkish army since 1942, inflicting nearly 100,000 casualties on the defenders. The Iranians, attacking in parallel with the Soviets had been also able to nearly reach the pre-war border but had suffered over 8,000 men in doing so. But by now the Turkish army general staff could expect something of a respite. Despite the massive casualties it had been able to halt the Greeks just short of Usak, the Soviets on the border and the British north of Diyarbakir. And with winter coming, mud was also coming and the country's road network would become nearly impassable in many areas. Between December and the spring resuming the offensives would be difficult to put it mildly, giving the Turkish army much needed time to rebuild and prepare...
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Truth is the East Med. Axis are in a good position to hold out for another year. Hmm. The war might last longer.
I wonder if Irani might annex any territory from Turkey, but I highly doubt it.
The border is already pretty well set (been there for more than 3 centuries) and also in fuck-off mountains.
So yeah, unlikely.
Thessaloniki liberated this early! For one, the city's Sephardic community not being destroyed in near totality is a great change from OTL - plenty of huge potential impacts down the line both for Greece and the Jewish communities of Europe. In the event an uprising in Warsaw occurs in the manner of OTL, further potential exists for it to serve both as an inspiration and politically confounding variable. It's certainly going to be harder for the Soviets to get away with letting it erode and die without losing face.
The strategic impacts with regard to WWII also can't be understated, both for the ongoing Balkan front and the western Anatolian one. Sure, the mountains and rivers in the north of Macedonia were always going to be hell to fight through, but this far accelerates the timetable for an Allied offensive through the area both to liberate northern Greece and potentially knock the Bulgarians out of the war completely. With respect to the latter they're certainly a long ways from it - but far, far closer to Sofia than the Soviets.
I think the notion of Turkey suing for peace while still holding enough stake in Europe to make the issue of the Bosphorus is quite intriguing, but its plausibility depends a lot on how the eastern Turkish campaigns develop. The sooner Sivas is realistically threatened, the more likely this becomes; the longer away, the more likely that an Allied army landing in Constantinople (or, potentially, another successful uprising...) happens early enough to make the issue far harder to contest. It would definitely be interesting to see the Straits be internationalized and/or made a headquarter city-state for the U.N., but I'm not sure how realistic the latter portion is, or the likelihood of peace holding for more than a decade or two regardless of it. The situation in Palestine and Israel definitely didn't take any time flaring up post-WWII OTL.
The strategic impacts with regard to WWII also can't be understated, both for the ongoing Balkan front and the western Anatolian one. Sure, the mountains and rivers in the north of Macedonia were always going to be hell to fight through, but this far accelerates the timetable for an Allied offensive through the area both to liberate northern Greece and potentially knock the Bulgarians out of the war completely. With respect to the latter they're certainly a long ways from it - but far, far closer to Sofia than the Soviets.
I think the notion of Turkey suing for peace while still holding enough stake in Europe to make the issue of the Bosphorus is quite intriguing, but its plausibility depends a lot on how the eastern Turkish campaigns develop. The sooner Sivas is realistically threatened, the more likely this becomes; the longer away, the more likely that an Allied army landing in Constantinople (or, potentially, another successful uprising...) happens early enough to make the issue far harder to contest. It would definitely be interesting to see the Straits be internationalized and/or made a headquarter city-state for the U.N., but I'm not sure how realistic the latter portion is, or the likelihood of peace holding for more than a decade or two regardless of it. The situation in Palestine and Israel definitely didn't take any time flaring up post-WWII OTL.
I defo think if the Soviets and the WAllies southern Anatolian front don't develop quick enough Stalin will accept that the WAllies cut off supplies from turkey by opening the Hellespont and doing a naval operation on Constantinople. So it depends on how well the Turks are doing. If they do relatively well the chances of them losing Constantinople are greater because the naval operation would be done with the WAllies navy with a lot of Greek participation.
With Churchill laughing in the distance about finally doing a landing on Gallipoli lmao.
I think that if the Allies doesn't want to have the front static for the next 4-5 months and then fight teeth and nails to reach Constantinople or Sofia a new Gallipoli landing (or in the other side of Dardanelles) is in order.
That would knock off Turkey out of the war fast.
And would be a sort of a vengeance from the part of Churchill.
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Amazing update for the Greeks and the Greek Jewish! Thank you Laskaris!
Can't help but thinking how the war will end. So, here's a question:
How's Adolf Hitler doing these days? And what do his generals and the old Prussian aristocracy think of the war?
And an extra question:
Is it time for another Allies summit? Are the Wallies starting to design TTL operation Overlord for sooner?
TIA
Can't help but thinking how the war will end. So, here's a question:
How's Adolf Hitler doing these days? And what do his generals and the old Prussian aristocracy think of the war?
And an extra question:
Is it time for another Allies summit? Are the Wallies starting to design TTL operation Overlord for sooner?
TIA