Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Also especially if the Laz keeps their Muslim identity
Georgia already had ASSR for Muslim Georgians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjarian_Autonomous_Soviet_Socialist_Republic?useskin=vector

I wouldn't be surprised if a new state of mixed ancestry between Georgians, Armenians and Russians settle the new lands the Russians took from the Turks would form out of the new lands
Like OTL Transnistria? I can see two brother unrecognized republics in former GSSR and ArSSR lands but not federation between them
 
prob yeah, but this time its much bigger and would
Like OTL Transnistria? I can see two brother unrecognized republics in former GSSR and ArSSR lands but not federation between them
Yeah, especially in the Armenian SSR where ppl have already said that there aren't enough Armenians to repopulate it. The Assyrians probably be a big part of the Armenian SSR too considering they would be the other group of Christians that has good relations with Armenia especially if Assyria doesn't exist. If Assyria exists tho I could see some tension.
 
prob yeah, but this time its much bigger and would

Yeah, especially in the Armenian SSR where ppl have already said that there aren't enough Armenians to repopulate it. The Assyrians probably be a big part of the Armenian SSR too considering they would be the other group of Christians that has good relations with Armenia especially if Assyria doesn't exist. If Assyria exists tho I could see some tension.
I don’t think USSR cares about their religion tbf.
 
Appendix Allied Forces in Near East and Mediterranean August 1943
Allied Armies of the Orient (Theodore Pangalos)

GHQ Reserve
  • 13th Marine Infantry Regiment (Alkiviades Bourdaras)
  • 3/40 Euzone Regiment (Georgios Grivas)
  • III Airborne brigade (Christodoulos Tsigantes)
    • 10th Paratrooper Regiment
    • 2nd Raiding Regiment
Thessalian Front
  • 1st Greek Army (Dimitrios Katheniotis)
    • A Corps (Charalambos Katsimitros)
      • I Infantry Division (Basileios Brachnos)
      • II Infantry Division (Euripidis Bakirtzis)
      • 1st Armoured Cavalry Division (Ioannis Tsaggaridis)
    • C Corps (Georgios Dromazos)
      • IX Infantry Division (Stefanos Sarafis)
      • XIII Mountain Division (Thraymboulos Tsakalotos)
      • 2nd Armoured Cavalry Division (Sokratis Demaratos)
    • 1st Free Polish Corps (Wladislaw Anders)
      • 1 Dywizja Grenadierów
      • 2 Dywizja Strzelców Pieszych
      • 4 Dywizja Piechoty
  • 10th British Army (Oliver Leese)
    • X Corps
      • 46th Infantry Division
      • 56th Infantry Division
      • 6th Armoured Division
    • New Zealand Corps (Bernard Freyberg)
      • 2nd New Zealand Division
      • 5th Infantry Division
      • 8th Armoured brigade
  • 3rd Yugoslav Army group (Milorad Petrovic)
    • 3rd Army (Jovan Naumovic)
      • 5th Infantry Division Šumadijska
      • 20th Infantry Division Bregalnička
    • 5th Army (Vladimir Cukavac)
      • 31st Infantry Division Kosovska
      • 34th Infantry Division Toplička
      • 2nd Cavalry Division (Draga Mihailovic)
    • 2e Corps Armee Francaise Libre (Antoine Bethouart)
      • 1re Division Francaise Libre
      • 2e Division Francaise Libre
Epirote Front (Ioannis Pitsikas)
  • B Corps (Georgios Stanotas)
    • IV Infantry Division (Emmanuel Mantakas)
    • VI Infantry Division (Leonidas Spaes)
    • VIII Infantry Division (Napoleon Zervas)
Asia Minor Front
  • Army of Asia Minor (Ptolemaios Sarigiannis)
    • D Army Corps (Georgios Kosmas)
      • VII Infantry Division (Ignatios Kallergis)
      • XI Infantry Division (Demetrios Giantzis)
      • III Armoured Division (Andreas Kallinskis)
    • E Army Corps (Ioannis Alexakis)
      • V Infantry division (Konstantinos Ventiris)
      • X Infantry Division (Panagiotis Spiliotopoulos)
      • Archipelago division (Efstathios Liosis)
    • Z Army Corps (Demetrios Papadopoulos)
      • XII Infantry division (Sotirios Moutousis)
      • XVI Infantry division (Demetrios Psarros)
      • Crete Division (Christos Karassos)

18th Allied Army Group (Maitland Wilson)

Anatolian front

  • Armee D' Orient (Jean De Lattre De Tassigny)
    • 1ere Corps Armee Francaise Libre
      • 3e Division d'Infanterie Algérienne
      • 7e Division d'Infanterie Algérienne
      • 10e Division Infanterie Coloniale
      • 3e Division Blindee
  • British 9th Army (William Slim)
    • III Corps
      • 6th Indian Division
      • 31st Indian Armoured Division
      • Arab Legion Brigade group
      • 1st Assyrian Brigade
    • XVIII Corps
      • 8th Indian Division
      • 10th Indian Division
      • 1st Armoured Brigade
      • 7th Armoured Brigade
      • 1st Jewish Infantry Brigade
  • Iranian Army
    • 1st Infantry Division
    • 2nd Infantry Division
    • 3rd Infantry Division
    • Cavalry Brigade
15th Army Group (Mediterranean, Archibald Wavell)

Italy and Sicily

  • British 8th Army (Richard O'Connor)
    • 1st Paratrooper Division
    • V British Corps
      • 50th Infantry Division
      • 51st Infantry Division
      • 1st Canadian Infantry Division
      • 21st Armoured brigade
    • XIII Corps
      • 4th Indian Division
      • 44th Infantry Division
      • 78th Infantry Division
      • 25th Armoured Brigade
  • US 5th Army (Mark Clark)
    • VI Corps
      • 3rd Infantry Division
      • 34th Infantry Division
      • 36th Infantry Division
      • 45th Infantry Division
    • 82nd Airborne Division
    • 1st Armored Divisiom
  • US 7th Army (fGeorge Patton)
    • 1st Infantry Division
    • 9th Infantry Division
    • 2nd Armored Division
North Africa
  • IX Corps
    • 1st Infantry Division
    • 8th Armoured Division
    • 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade
  • XXX Corps
    • 1st Armoured Division
    • 7th Armoured Division
    • 4th Infantry Division
  • Armee d' Afrique (Alphonse Juin)
    • XIX Corps Armee
      • 2e Division d'Infanterie Marocaine
      • 4e Division Marocaine de Montagne
      • 6e Division d'Infanterie Algérienne
      • 9e Division Infanterie Coloniale
      • 1e Division Blindee
      • 5e Division Blindee
Garissons and Lines of Communications troops
  • 10th Armoured Division (Egypt)
  • 1st South African Armoured Division (Egypt)
  • 6th South African Armoured Division (Egypt)
  • 9th Armoured brigade
  • 2nd Assyrian Brigade
  • 1st to 7th Kurdish brigades
 
@Lascaris the Epirote front is assigned to only 3 Greek divisions? Even with the help of some Italian units, it seems to be a small force. Unless of course the Allied attack has stopped in Albania .
Besides this, isn't there a Greek regiment (or brigade, I don't remember exactly) fighting in Italy? Under whom, the British or the Americans?
Finally what is the strength in men of the Kurdish brigades?
 
Georgia already had ASSR for Muslim Georgians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjarian_Autonomous_Soviet_Socialist_Republic?useskin=vector


Like OTL Transnistria? I can see two brother unrecognized republics in former GSSR and ArSSR lands but not federation between them
In OTL the Georgian and Armenian SSRs had overlapping claims over quite a bit of territory. Also note though that their claims and what Molotov actually demanded from Turkey in 1945 were different things. The actual claim was to get back the 1914 border. Which the Soviet Union TTL had already recovered in 1921 taking advantage of Turkish defeat in the west.
prob yeah, but this time its much bigger and would

Yeah, especially in the Armenian SSR where ppl have already said that there aren't enough Armenians to repopulate it. The Assyrians probably be a big part of the Armenian SSR too considering they would be the other group of Christians that has good relations with Armenia especially if Assyria doesn't exist. If Assyria exists tho I could see some tension.
No Assyrians left in Anatolia, the Assyrian population is in northern Iraq. So if the Assyrians failed in their bid of independence and on top of of that were ethnic cleansed by the Arabs, the Soviet Union might an option but it would be just one possibility. The United States, the British Empire, for that matter Greece or Lebanon all would be viable alternatives.
I don’t think USSR cares about their religion tbf.
The USSR may not care but the actual populations on the ground mostly do, just like in Ireland also denoted national affiliation.
@Lascaris the Epirote front is assigned to only 3 Greek divisions? Even with the help of some Italian units, it seems to be a small force. Unless of course the Allied attack has stopped in Albania .
Three divisions along support elements is an army in the 80-120,000 men range. By this point the Greek divisions are following American/British standards.Which is one reason the Greeks have far fewer divisions than at their peak number in early 1941. Besides the Germans have in Albania 2 divisions with maybe 50,000 men. Why should the Allies divert units from the main theater of operations in Macedonia for Albania. In Macedonia there are obvious strategic/political gains to be made, Thessaloniki for the obvious one. In Albania what is there to gain with comparable value?
Besides this, isn't there a Greek regiment (or brigade, I don't remember exactly) fighting in Italy? Under whom, the British or the Americans?
Finally what is the strength in men of the Kurdish brigades?
One Greek (34th Infantry) and one French regimental combat teams attached to US forces. French forces will likely be increasing as more French divisions in North Africa are fully re-equipped.
 
Appendix German Forces in the Near East August 1943
Heeresgruppe E (Maximilian Von Weichs)

Macedonian Front
  • 12th Army (Alexander Löhr)
    • XVIII Mountain Corps
      • 2 Panzer Division
      • 5 Gebirgs Division
      • 6 Gebirgs Division
    • LXIX Corps
      • 1 Gebirgs Division
      • 334 Infanterie Division
    • XXI Mountain Corps
      • 4 SS Division "Polizei"
      • 104 Jäger Division
Anatolian Front
  • Attached to 2nd Turkish Army (Nafiz Gürman)
    • XXX Corps
      • 50 Infanterie Division
      • 72 Infanterie Division
      • 164 Infanterie Division
    • LXVIII Corps
      • 22 Infanterie Division
      • 999 Infanterie Division
Albanian Front
  • XXII Mountain Corps
    • 297 Infanterie Division
    • 117 Jäger Division
Occupied Yugoslavia
  • 2nd Panzer Army (Lothar Rendulic)
    • XV Mountain Corps
      • 11 Luftwaffen Feld Division
      • 100 Jäger Division
      • 114 Jäger Division
    • V SS Mountain Corps
      • 1 Kosaken Kavallerie Division
      • 7 SS Gebirgs Division "Prinz Eugen"
    • LXXXX Corps
      • 369 Kroatische Infanterie Division
      • 373 Kroatische Infanterie Division
      • 118 Jäger Division
 
Appendix Turkish Army August 1943
GHQ (Sivas, marshal Fevzi Cakmak)
  • 1st Army (Western Anatolia, Kazim Orbay)
    • III Corps
      • 1 Infantry Division
      • 7 Infantry Division
      • 24 Infantry Division
    • IV Corps
      • 23 Infantry Division
      • 57 Infantry Division
      • 3 Cavalry Division
      • Tank Brigade
    • I Corps
      • 10 Infantry Division
      • 22 Infantry Division
      • 25 Infantry Division
    • II Corps
      • 28 Infantry Division
      • 29 Infantry Division
      • 32 Infantry Division
  • 2nd Army (South Anatolia, Nafiz Gürman)
    • X Corps
      • 4 Infantry Division
      • 5 Infantry Division
      • 20 Infantry Division
      • 14 Cavalry Division
    • VII Corps
      • 52 Infantry Division
      • 61 Infantry Division
      • 63 Infantry Division
      • 64 Infantry Division
    • XXX German Corps
    • LXVIII German Corps
  • 3rd Army (Caucasus, Fahrettin Altay)
    • VIII Corps
      • 8 Infantry Division
      • 12 Infantry Division
      • 15 Infantry Division
    • IX Corps
      • 16 Infantry Division
      • 17 Infantry Division
      • 41 Infantry Division
      • 1 Cavalry Division
    • XV Corps
      • 3 Infantry Division
      • 9 Infantry Division
      • 11 Infantry Division
  • 5th Army (Thrace and Straits Area, Izzetin Calislar)
    • V Corps
      • 33 Infantry Division
      • 39 Infantry Division
    • VI Corps (Thrace)
      • 46 Infantry Division
      • 48 Infantry Division
      • 51 Infantry Division
 
The Turks still have some very very good Army Commanders
Then again, we don‘t know how they would have performed in a WW2 battlefield due to Turkish neutrality IOTL, though some hints could be glanced from how Turkish forces performed in Korea IOTL. And speaking of Turkey’s Korea experience, what are the commanders of the forces which fought IOTL in the Korean War doing ITTL?
 
IMO, Turkey's problem is less manpower or generalship but that of supplies and resources. While the Anatolian Fronts probably aren't the top priority of the Allies, the equipment they are sending is both qualitatively and quantitatively superior to what Turkey can produce. However, equipment/supplies can only get you so far as Turkey has done a fairly successful defence but how long this can continue...who knows?
 
The Turks still have some very very good Army Commanders
They most certainly do. If you compare the order of battle above with the one for the start of the war in 1941, aside from reshuffling forces and establishing one more army command for Thrace and the straits, I chose the 5th army on the assumption the Turkish high command would want to follow Ottoman numbering from the previous war, if for no other reason for propaganda purposes as it was the one who defended Gallipoli that only obvious difference is the removal of XII Corps and three of its divisions from the order of battle. Which were encircled and destroyed at Antep early in 1943.
Then again, we don‘t know how they would have performed in a WW2 battlefield due to Turkish neutrality IOTL, though some hints could be glanced from how Turkish forces performed in Korea IOTL. And speaking of Turkey’s Korea experience, what are the commanders of the forces which fought IOTL in the Korean War doing ITTL?
Turkish performance in Korea has received a certain degree of hype, for Kunuri for example it is often stated that Turkish defence saved the 8th army, on the other hand Blair in the "Forgotten War" is rather more scathing talking of "overrated, poorly led green troops" that "broke and bugged out", exposing the 8th army's flank as a result, also citing Freeman, one of the local US commanders saying that the Turks had a "look at the situation," "and they had no stomach for it, and they were running in all directions". Of course Freeman had his own regiment retreat in the very same battle exposing the flank of the US 2nd division. For certain they did have communications problems with other Allied contingents and while at least the officers and many noncoms of the Allied and Chinese units were veterans of the 1940s the Turks had not fought since 1922. TTL Turkish army by 1943 certainly has no such handicaps, they are veterans of nearly 3 years themselves.
IMO, Turkey's problem is less manpower or generalship but that of supplies and resources. While the Anatolian Fronts probably aren't the top priority of the Allies, the equipment they are sending is both qualitatively and quantitatively superior to what Turkey can produce. However, equipment/supplies can only get you so far as Turkey has done a fairly successful defence but how long this can continue...who knows?
In terms of artillery and small arms the Turkish situation is better than early 1941, German supplies including Soviet and French loot have been pretty significant and Turkey is doing a concerted effort to build as much as it can locally, with some success at least in small arms and airplanes, how that affects Turkish industry postwar will be an interesting question. Where there is not a gap but a chasm with their western opponents is in tanks, motorization and of course supplies. The Germans can't exactly help there when they lack trucks for their own army...
 
Turkish performance in Korea has received a certain degree of hype, for Kunuri for example it is often stated that Turkish defence saved the 8th army, on the other hand Blair in the "Forgotten War" is rather more scathing talking of "overrated, poorly led green troops" that "broke and bugged out", exposing the 8th army's flank as a result, also citing Freeman, one of the local US commanders saying that the Turks had a "look at the situation," "and they had no stomach for it, and they were running in all directions". Of course Freeman had his own regiment retreat in the very same battle exposing the flank of the US 2nd division. For certain they did have communications problems with other Allied contingents and while at least the officers and many noncoms of the Allied and Chinese units were veterans of the 1940s the Turks had not fought since 1922. TTL Turkish army by 1943 certainly has no such handicaps, they are veterans of nearly 3 years themselves.
And my question on what the OTL commanders of the Turkish forces in Korea are doing at this point ITTL?
 
And my question on what the OTL commanders of the Turkish forces in Korea are doing at this point ITTL?
Per the source of all knowledge he made full colonel in late 1943. Assuming somewhat faster promotion due to the war, he's likely promoted to colonel around 1942. So logically serving either in some staff or in command of one of the cavalry brigades/regiments within the three cavalry divisions of the army.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
My late father had some contact with the Turkish military in Korea. He had nothing but the highest praise for the ordinary Turkish soldiers - very hardy, willing to help out - good solid blokes in his opinion. The Scots got on famously with them.
 
Part 128
Grevena, August 28th, 1943

The Greek and the Italian officer shook hands in front of the photographer. Allied forces had managed to link with the pocket of Italian forces fighting against the Germans. The danger for the Italians was not yet over but at least they now had a line of supply. Or at least a line to retreat...

Naples, August 29th, 1943

The city rose up in revolt at rumors that Allied and Free Italian troops were approaching. After four days of fierce street fighting the Germans would be forced to leave Naples between the rebels and the Allied advance. The Italian "Garibaldi" brigade and elements of the US 82nd Airborne division would be the first to enter liberated Naples.

Copenhagen, August 29th, 1943

For the past three years Denmark was occupied but her government and part of her armed forces remained intact in the country. Now following increasing tensions the Germans moved to disarm the Danish forces. The Danish navy would manage to scuttle most of its ships with four ships managing to escape to neutral Sweden. A single German soldier would be killed during the operation and about half a dozen wounded. Most of the rest of the world would hardly notice.

Aiani, Macedonia, August 30th, 1943

The Maoris of the 28th battalion beat back the German counterattack. The Allied bridgehead across the Aliakmon river was secure. Soon it would be further reinforced and Allied forces start to push out of it.

Thessaloniki, September 3rd, 1943

The railway troops officer was getting exasperated. The Amis had hit the railyards once more. Or it could had been the British. Or the French. Or the Greeks. Or even the Serbs and the Poles, of course Poles were not supposed to be around opposing the Reich any more a contention that the streams of casualties coming back from fighting the Polish Corps might question. Or all of them together. He had heard the Luftwaffe had sent over a hundred aircraft to reinforce the units fighting but the Allied air attacks were not showing any sign of dissipating. As if the bombing was not enough the tracks from here all the way to Belgrade were under constant attack by partisans, putting wagons full of hostages ahead had not stopped them from attacking, any more than reprisals did, and the Bulgarian and German occupation forces were big on reprisals. As if all this was not enough...

"Yawohl herr oberführer the train to Poland will have to waid we had to send a hospital train with wounded to Vienna instead today, I promise it will leave on the fifth. Yes I know the timetable called for four shipments by the fifth and only one was possible, but you understand the situation at the front has to take precedence. I know you didn't have such issues in Constantinople..."

Macedonia, September 7th, 1943

Allied forces liberated Kozani. German and Bulgarian forces were pulling back behind mount Vermion in the East and towards Monastir to the north. The Germans, reinforced by two more divisions, were still contesting ground nearly step by step and so did the Bulgarians further east but they were paying for delaying the Allied advance in blood, their casualties in four weeks of heave fighting were in excess of 50,000 men and growing. And the Allied advance, if slow was not showing any sign of actually stopping...
 
Macedonia, September 7th, 1943

Allied forces liberated Kozani. German and Bulgarian forces were pulling back behind mount Vermion in the East and towards Monastir to the north. The Germans, reinforced by two more divisions, were still contesting ground nearly step by step and so did the Bulgarians further east but they were paying for delaying the Allied advance in blood, their casualties in four weeks of heave fighting were in excess of 50,000 men and growing. And the Allied advance, if slow was not showing any sign of actually stopping...
So there is a breakthrough but not a total collapse yet. Perhaps it is time for an amphibious operation at the rear of the Axis forces defending the way to Thessaloniki! @Lascaris is the German Panzer division in the Macedonian front near full strength or is it a division just in name? If the answer is closer to the latter then perhaps a small amphibious operation will be the solution. I guess the front resembles smt like the crude map below and the operation I'm proposing is noted with the orange arrow.
 

Attachments

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The offensive seems to be going quite well and considering the germans are moving their staff back from thessaloniki I think thessaloniki will be attacked soon which is a good thing. The Italian front is also going quite better than otl I feel.
 
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